Summons are overpowered

[Hazard]

Technically you can take any domain as long as its not diametrically opposed to your god or another domain, its preferred to take ones that sync but its not an actual rule last i checked so could easily take strength if one wanted to.

... if one wanted to.
Do they want to?

I know I don't want to, but I'm going to.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

What build are you running that undead summons can tank paush? genuinely want to know.

Undead were always able to tank Paush. Even before buffs. It's what I used for soloing him on my Undying warlock.

[Subtext]

What build are you running that undead summons can tank paush? genuinely want to know.

Undead were always able to tank Paush. Even before buffs. It's what I used for soloing him on my Undying warlock.

I'd argue that if you can solo Paush with a certain setup, that setup really needs some strong revisions.

[-XXX-]

There's only 1 that gives AoV and a mass zoo (str), so you must pick this one. Strength. How do you justify this pick if your god does not have strength as a part of their portfolio?

Undeath domain grants access to negative energy burst which confers up to +7 strength to undead summons. Clerics can also cast stone bones.
Having access to both AoV and mass strength on an undeath domain cleric would be superfluous.

I'd argue that if you can solo Paush with a certain setup, that setup really needs some strong revisions.

That'd mean deleting gonnes and warlocks.
It's not like the undead summons defeat him - they serve as a temporary tarpit in this case.
It takes a lot of summon recastings and gonne slugs to actually bring him down.

[Hazard]

There's only 1 that gives AoV and a mass zoo (str), so you must pick this one. Strength. How do you justify this pick if your god does not have strength as a part of their portfolio?

Undeath domain grants access to negative energy burst which confers up to +7 strength to undead summons. Clerics can also cast stone bones.
Having access to both AoV and mass strength on an undeath domain cleric would be superfluous.

I'd argue that if you can solo Paush with a certain setup, that setup really needs some strong revisions.

That'd mean deleting gonnes and warlocks.
It's not like the undead summons defeat him - they serve as a temporary tarpit in this case.
It takes a lot of summon recastings and gonne slugs to actually bring him down.

Fair point on the negative energy burst and stone bones.
Do you know the specifics of how much a non-metamagic burst gives in str to undead? I don't.
Can you get it to +7 without empower?

Mass Haste seems the biggest difference.

I guess a warlock or a gonne could solo paush, but I don't know if I'd be saying 'my undead are so OP they can solo paush' under that scenario. That's more the power of having infinite/near infinite ranged DPS. The undead are sort of just there to distract the AI.

[-XXX-]

Do you know the specifics of how much a non-metamagic burst gives in str to undead? I don't.
Can you get it to +7 without empower?

1 point per 4 caster levels : https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Negative_Energy_Burst

[Hazard]

Do you know the specifics of how much a non-metamagic burst gives in str to undead? I don't.
Can you get it to +7 without empower?

1 point per 4 caster levels : https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Negative_Energy_Burst

Okay, so the same as it saps. I wasn't sure if that was the case or if it had some cap or something for adding STR. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[TurningLeaf]

Hiding summons and -fetch'ing them to you in PvP is a good way to get your arse banned and the command disabled. This is why we can't have nice things. Don't ruin it for the rest of us, please.

Should really just be rest menued

[Amateur Hour]

The reason it's not rest-menued is that one very valid reason for using "-fetch" is when you intra-map transition into combat (you only get the few seconds of invulnerability if you're doing an inter-map transition) and for whatever reason your summons don't follow you.

[Morgy]

Hiding summons and -fetch'ing them to you in PvP is a good way to get your arse banned and the command disabled. This is why we can't have nice things. Don't ruin it for the rest of us, please.

I always figured this was the case too and fortunately don’t ever see it happening, but I also don’t recall why I think this, as I don’t think it gives a warning about abuse like -makesafe? There’s a lot of ‘-‘ code commands which are part of the game like -pray, after all.

[-XXX-]

It's pretty clear on the matter here: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Console_command#-fetch

[Morgy]

It's pretty clear on the matter here: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Console_command#-fetch

Well there you go!

[Algol]

I think summons shouldn't be affected by AOE buffs, in spirit of the sequancer update. They could copy the movement speed increase effects on the character who summoned them to keep up, but that should be the extend of it if we won't be able to buff them normally.

But alas I think sequencer update should be reversed.

[Kalthariam]

Yes. Undead have lots more buffs than non-undead summoners.

It's super fun they get a ton of diversity for their end game summons, and extra buffs that aren't accessible to non-animators.

Annnd elemental swarm is once again only for select domains. Same issue with the mass buffs.

If I wanted to play a druid I'd just play a druid. :\

I don't see why I'd have to effectively make my Cleric a druid through domain choices to be able to enjoy conjuration.

Might as well just play a plantshape druid get all the spellcasting the elemental swarms and a stupid strong shapeshift.

There'se alot of transitions (Through soft transitions in the same zone, and through for example like the portals in the Deugar Fortress on the ice roads) that summons do not follow you through at all, and just stay where they are. It's rather frustrating, thankfully the fetch command is a thing.. hopefully people aren't ambushing people with the -fetch command, that's in poor taste. To lose the fetch command and make a fair number of dungeons completely inaccessible to conjurers of all stripes would be frustrating.

[Hazard]

... I think sequencer update should be reversed.

heck yeah

[Nurel]

But alas I think sequencer update should be reversed.

Summons are still overpowered to an insane degree. If sequencer update was aimed to "nerf" them somehow, I am sure it must be clear by now that it did not.

I also do not see how Wizard summons are overpowered and Healer summons are squishy. They should be the same power level. They are the same summons.

But you need to know how to cheese the game; Arelith has a steep learning curve for summon and henchman management. Experienced players can kill Paush using only summons, newer players cant even handle pre-epic dungeons with their summons.

[Algol]

Wizards have mass haste for their summons, which increases attacks a creature can do per round by one, with full ab. Since summoned creatures usually have 3 apr this means a damage per round increase over 33%.

[-XXX-]

Haste being a very powerful effect is hardly a shocking revelantion.

[Hazard]

But alas I think sequencer update should be reversed.

Summons are still overpowered to an insane degree. If sequencer update was aimed to "nerf" them somehow, I am sure it must be clear by now that it did not.

I also do not see how Wizard summons are overpowered and Healer summons are squishy. They should be the same power level. They are the same summons.

But you need to know how to cheese the game; Arelith has a steep learning curve for summon and henchman management. Experienced players can kill Paush using only summons, newer players cant even handle pre-epic dungeons with their summons.

Disagree that they're overpowered, but that's just our opinions and whatever we consider "op" and expect from summons.
They perform fine in PvE, they're useless in PvP except for buying you a round or few, so to me, that's fine. A summoner 'should' be able to solo, that's generally why people go with summoner roles in fantasy games. Self reliance.

Wizard and Cleric summons are not the same. Wizards have mass haste. That's 3 extra attacks per round at full ab for most undead streams, 4 extra attacks per round at full ab for elemental swarms. Big, big difference.

Has absolutely nothing to do with skill or learning curve.
You cannot kill Paush "using only summons", you're using other means. The summons are just distractions, this isn't something you can nerf. It's an AI issue. You could do this with a swarm of badgers if such a thing were available.
There aren't any summons that will kill Paush on their own.

We keep bringing up a big bad like Paush. I wonder if it might be worth making Paush behave differently to other NPCs? Maybe ignore summons and go straight for the owner? Would be really cool if a player couldn't just casually go on "paush runs". Kinda kills the vibe of server. While we're at it, let's get rid of boss names so people stop saying "I've killed abby 3 times today!" but that's a different topic and one I've been spamming for years.

[AstralUniverse]

They perform fine in PvE, they're useless in PvP except for buying you a round or few

This really gets me. I dont understand this perspective.

They dont perform 'fine' in pve, they perform amazing. I say this based on the fact that they have close to (if not better) stats than lvl 30 melee builds. I think the sheets of the summons screenshot by players here and on discord say it all.

In pvp, well, I dont think they are insanely broken op but saying they just buy you 'a round or few' as if it's not an incredibly huge value baffles me. A lot of them have more than 52 ab, they cannot be ignored by anyone except the most extreme ac tank builds. While some builds are better than others at destroying summons via spells/abilities, most of these said other builds may not have any relevant ac against them, or a good method of dismissing them outside of spending 2 whole rounds and investing into 50+ lore or having UMD, and against most builds, summons are very effective in PVP.

I actually think it would be cool if summons were MORE reliable in pve and pvp, but less lethal. 52 ab is ridiculous. No one needs that much for pve.

[Hazard]

They perform fine in PvE, they're useless in PvP except for buying you a round or few

This really gets me. I dont understand this perspective.

They dont perform 'fine' in pve, they perform amazing. I say this based on the fact that they have close to (if not better) stats than lvl 30 melee builds. I think the sheets of the summons screenshot by players here and on discord say it all.

In pvp, well, I dont think they are insanely broken op but saying they just buy you 'a round or few' as if it's not an incredibly huge value baffles me. A lot of them have more than 52 ab, they cannot be ignored by anyone except the most extreme ac tank builds. While some builds are better than others at destroying summons via spells/abilities, most of these said other builds may not have any relevant ac against them, or a good method of dismissing them outside of spending 2 whole rounds and investing into 50+ lore or having UMD, and against most builds, summons are very effective in PVP.

I actually think it would be cool if summons were MORE reliable in pve and pvp, but less lethal. 52 ab is ridiculous. No one needs that much for pve.

>The fact they have better stats than level 30 melee builds.
My melee builds all have far better stats than any summon.

>Screenshot by players here and on discord say it all
Do they? Please share these screenshots in this thread.

>A lot of them have more than 52 ab
A lot of them? Most don't. Which have more than 52 ab?

>They cannot be ignored by anyone except the most extreme ac tank builds.
Yes they can, because of how low most summons ab is.

>Most builds don't have the ac
Disagree. Most builds do have the ac.

>Most builds cannot dismiss
Disagree. Most builds can dismiss.
The ones that can't, tend to not need to.

>2 whole rounds
Yes. 2 whole rounds. You're dismissing someone's summons. If it took 1 round there'd be no point in even summoning them, and it can't take 0 rounds can it? 2 is the minimum.

>50+ lore, umd
You can hit 35 umd on most builds easily without a single itemslot or feat used up, for incredibly cheap and plentiful WoF.
If you can't be bothered finding these powerful books, they're often sold for less than 5k or simply given away because the loot matrix is crazy generous with them in even mid and high level dungeons with bookcases. Rods that don't require any umd at all are very plentiful too.

>Summons are very effective against most builds in PvP.
Again, I don't know many builds that care about PvP at all that can be shred by summons.

[Naghast]

Guys, it's not just mass haste.
It is also empowered mass zoo's. That is a huge factor. Empowered esf trans mass zoo's. For all 3 physical stats.
I also have a trinket of 1/day AoV in a pinch.
I also have stone bones and negative burst for undead if i want to.
I also have enchantment specialist's good hope.

That makes a HUGE difference in power between wizard and cleric summons, ESPECIALLY in a game with results as binary as neverwinter nights.
You either hit and deal damage, or miss and deal no damage. And getting... What. 7 ab, so 35% flat increase to chance to hit? Is massive.

The screenshots were posted by me. I pumped EVERYTHING out of my summons, literally, everything.
The summon that hit 52 ab, with:
+12 to str, dex, con, mass haste, and good hope, and lesser arcane sequencer
Was a fire monolith. 3 apr base, 4 with haste. Approximately 45 damage per hit on average.

Without my buffs it would have 44 ab.

As for dismissing. I say this:
Word of faith scrolls are literally the integral part of baby's first pvp kit. It dismisses summons, and flatfoots others by blinding them.
If you do not have word of faith in any shape, and you try to seriously pvp, you need to re-evaluate your life choices.

Same for breach, really. If you do any pvp and you cannot breach (reduce enemy ac, breach biteback shields) you need to ask yourself what missteps in your life led to this situation.

As for more reliable but less lethal? I daresay, it is specifically THAT. What monoliths have.

They have good ab. Their hits hit RELIABLY.
They do not have the stupid amount of damage conduit has. They are not as lethal.

[Hazard]

Guys, it's not just mass haste.
It is also empowered mass zoo's. That is a huge factor. Empowered esf trans mass zoo's. For all 3 physical stats.
I also have a trinket of 1/day AoV in a pinch.
I also have stone bones and negative burst for undead if i want to.
I also have enchantment specialist's good hope.

That makes a HUGE difference in power between wizard and cleric summons, ESPECIALLY in a game with results as binary as neverwinter nights.
You either hit and deal damage, or miss and deal no damage. And getting... What. 7 ab, so 35% flat increase to chance to hit? Is massive.

The screenshots were posted by me. I pumped EVERYTHING out of my summons, literally, everything.
The summon that hit 52 ab, with:
+12 to str, dex, con, mass haste, and good hope, and lesser arcane sequencer
Was a fire monolith. 3 apr base, 4 with haste. Approximately 45 damage per hit on average.

Without my buffs it would have 44 ab.

As for dismissing. I say this:
Word of faith scrolls are literally the integral part of baby's first pvp kit. It dismisses summons, and flatfoots others by blinding them.
If you do not have word of faith in any shape, and you try to pvp, you need to re-evaluate your life choices.

Same for breach, really. If you do any pvp and you cannot breach (reduce enemy ac, breach biteback shields) you need to ask yourself what missteps in your life led to this situation.

I actually had a feeling it might be your screenshot, and iirc you said to NOT use it as an example because of how niche your build is.

Also, even with those stats, no I would not consider that a threat in PvP to most builds that had PvP in mind. That's still a pretty harmless summon in PvP.

Not arguing with you btw, just clarifying my own words.


I do agree with you about the difference between available spells. It is more than just mass haste.

[-XXX-]

>Most builds cannot dismiss
Disagree. Most builds can dismiss.

Sure seems to me like ALL of them can:

[Hazard]

>Most builds cannot dismiss
Disagree. Most builds can dismiss.

Sure seems to me like ALL of them can:

Oh, hey. Yeah I totally forgot about those older books.
True, that makes it even easier than I was imagining.