Fire/frost giant phenotype

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Svrtr
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Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Svrtr »

After some feedback, I am editing this post in full to better structure it after losing the plot and rambling.

So, out the gate my feedback is that either frost or fire half giant or both should be given consideration for either the option of human pheno, or outright made human pheno.

PT I: It fits the lore

This post was spurred on by the change of making stone half giant a major award due to population concerns, but before anything else as per the 3e DnD art, frost giant is already much more akin to a human pheno with a heavy norse appearance in style, as shown below.

Image

From my understanding, the reason that frost half giants were made to be dwarf pheno wasn't because that is how they appear in the lore, but because it was meant to serve as an emphasis on the duality and rivalry that frost and fire giants have as exemplified by the relation between the twin gods Surtr and Thrym. From a purely "this is the lore" standpoint and official art, this would make sense. However, if we want to be purely pedantic, it would be more in line with official art to make frost half giants be human pheno

PT II: People think the dwarf pheno and heads scaled up are ugly (and they're not wrong)


Now, for the messier parts. This was indeed spurred by stone half giants being made a major due to their overwhelming majority over the other two greater award half giants and the award race philosophy of artificial rarity, but I think it is important to look at the WHY of their massive surplus.

This reason seems to almost entirely due to one simple fact, that of the three greater award race half giants stone half giant was the only human phenotype. Whilst a disdain for the dwarf pheno can be understandable, this problem goes further than that. A general disdain for the dwarf pheno is one thing, but the upscaled dwarf pheno shows a host of new unpleasantries. The dwarf model itself was known to have some minor issues given its proportioning, but now a 7ft tall square of strange proportioning whose small unpleasantries are made large, and that often has immense amounts of clipping made all the more visible. Likewise, the dwarf heads are, for lack of a better word, limited, and given the shape of these two half giants making outfits for they can be a challenge.

While I have played tons of dwarves that many people have met or known and myself don't mind or enjoy the dwarf pheno, when scaled up as it is it is, indeed, kind of ugly. A combination of the clipping, the square of meat and metal of the model, the arguably lacking number of dwarf heads (of which many too are kinda cartoonish and few that are widely considered good), and personal bias against dwarf pheno all combine to be a large part of the reason, especially given as people DO care immensely about aesthetics since it is your character and you will be looking at them for as long as the character exists.


PT III: Mechanical argument

When the half giants FIRST came out and got nerfed less than a week later, it was warranted.

However, there was a second nerf that came and it was ONLY to stone half giant. Before stone half giant was +2 STR -4 DEX +4 CON +2 WIS. Their total stat gain was +8 -4, making them overall +4, which is the same as human when accounting for gifts. This was in line with every other half giant who instead was +6 and -2, save for cloud half giant who is +6 but of which 2 +2s are to CHA and WIS which forces them more or less into a CHA cleric of some kind to capitalize.

However, stone half giant got ANOTHER nerf, and this one was originally too confirmed because there was such a massive number of stone half giants. Their +4 CON was reduced to +2, which both made them statistically the worst of the half giants being only a net +2 gain (still of course having the -1 AC and AB of large races), and in the process it too outright ruined many EDR builds who could no longer achieve the stats they needed, SHARPLY cutting their population and the overall half giant population as people rolled them, shelved them indefinitely, and in some cases outright left arelith out of frustration.

This nerf was targeted at them for the number of stone half giants, but the majority chose them not for their mechanical strength or lack thereof, but for their human pheno. Despite being statistically the weakest of the lot with the most forced niche with +2 STR, CON, and WIS and -4 dex, with now half stone giant once more now being made a major, this means people were STILL picking the race not for their mechanical strength as strictly you could get the same stats as frost or fire with their WIS bloodline and 2 less dex, 5% less slashing DI but a large amount of frost or fire DI or DR, but because stone half giant was the one they thought LOOKED best for their human pheno.

I am willing to wager entirely that if stone, frost, and fire were all human pheno or were able to choose between human or dwarf pheno, that fire would be more popular than stone for their lore and firey aesthetic.

To reiterate, DESPITE their secondary nerf that made them statistically the worst of the 5 half giant races, and notably the 3 greater award half giant races, stone was still the mostpopular not for their mechanics but for their appearance.

With this in mind, and if we accept then that people choose more often for appearance if they have options amidst a race, this is a knell for greater award half giants.

When then we compare stone half giant to the major award half giants (and firbolg, but I will bar cloud here as it is extremely niche), once more it is the worst.

Stone: +2 STR, CON, WIS, -4 DEX. 5% DI but 10% vs slashing. Free earth stream

Firbolg: +4 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX, -4 CHA, 10% cold DI, 3 regen at 30, deflect arrow feat, bonus for -track. (I will admit I forget about their CHA malus which means their net gain is lower than stone half giant, but charisma is a nigh worthless stat so its loss is barely worth paying attention to).

May blodline for +2 STR, CON, WIS, -2 DEX, -4CHA

Storm: +2 STR, CON, CHA, -2 dex. 5% DI, 25% electric DI, 10/- electric DR, nets water and air streams. water breathing. May bloodline to change +2 CHA to +2 WIS


So whilst it does net more stats than firbolg slightly, this is because of bolg's cha malus, which is barely worth anything. It loses less dex, it gains some cold DI, deflect arrows, and 3 regen. Likewise, storm giant nets 5% less slashing DI, but loses 1 less dex (which is 1 less AC if we talk light armors where stone can't hit the 18 dex AC cap of studded leather without investing in dex which it can't afford), no elemental DI, and while its a cherry on top storm gets water breathing.

To sum this all up, of the 3 most comparable large races that are majors, stone appears to be the weakest by a notable margin.

On top, and this is anecdotal, most who I've spoken to have more or less agreed that if they get a major, they would jump on the chance sooner to play a storm or cloud half giant, in part as many believe their lore is cooler, with extra emphasis on shamanism for storm and the wealth and opulence of cloud. Stone giant lore is somewhat more bare than the others. Being reclusive crafters and artisans, they ARE really cool, but compared to storm and cloud some might see them as bland.

All in all, my point here is that stone half giant will be vastly overlooked compared to other giant bloded major award races, adn was chosen the most as a greater sheerly for its appearance despite its mechanical weakness.


Closing Thoughts

Most or all of us know when firbolg was made a greater. Something like 46 were made of which 40 were female, and I don't think I need to say aloud what most people believe the reason for this is, and that most of us can agree a large number of these firbolgs were not made because firbolg lore is cool.

That fear of stone half giants, being a large sized greater award race, isn't unwarranted, and its always a travesty when someone picks a race for reasons that seem ONLY superficial and not at all for the race itself. While this may seem contradictory to what I said before, I can say that of the half giants I have encountered (especially so they in the jotunhold), all of them are awesome. Many feared half giants would end up being just tall humans, but all of them do an earnest and sincere attempt to do justice to the race and to the lore of giants. Whilst a couple of them DID choose stone half giant because of human pheno, it wasn't JUST because they were a large human pheno. They sincerely and earnestly wanted to play a half giant for the race itself, and considered frost and fire half giants, and the deciding factor of which of those 3 they'll play in the end was the human pheno.

Compared to firbolg-aggeddon, I truly and sincerely believe that the vast majority of half giants are earnest for the race itself and not just, pardon my language, to be a tall woman or guts RPer as many fear deep down even if they don't admit it. While I understand the philosophy for award races of artificial rarity, all in all when looking at half giants as a whole, their developing RP culture and niche, this hurts it immensely, as the growth of half giants to come about is likely to be SEVERELY diminished. Looking at firbolgs in a vacuum is one matter for sure, as before they were the only large sized giant blooded race, but now half giants and their numbers and reasons people pick them cannot be viewed in a vacuum as there is now options for large sized giant blooded races and reasons people pick them. The original stone half giant nerf that followed the nerf to all half giants felt misguided, and now this feels like a nail in the coffin for half giants.


With that said, I would beseech consideration be given to allowing human pheno for at least frost half giants, if not both. Both to equalize the spread of half giants, and so that greater award people won't dismiss the race out of hand because of the dwarf pheno

P.S.: I am being held at gonne point to give an honorable mention to fire half giant CHA bloodline for paladin fire half giant and oath of maat



I will add here, I understand the bias many will have against half giants, particularly so human pheno ones. Most all of us remember when firbolg was made a greater, and something like 46 were made and of which 40 were female for reasons unspoken and yet known.
Last edited by Svrtr on Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Morto
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Morto »

Am just lamenting the for certain near halting of incoming new Half-Giants. This shift isn't making attainable half giants more popular it's a soft removal of the ones that were popular. A view may be that while half-Giants were pushed forward and perhapse made a little more accessible to build up a new and initial population, that has been accomplished, and any accessibility is starting to be reeled in, while the server reviews and let's other flavors of rewards be made accessible.

I don't think this was a decision to try and force fix exclusively the fire/frost/stone disparity ( viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39439 ), but this disparity was likely considered in the fact of the less popular fire/frost be left at more accessible greater rewards.

Honestly, this reward tier shift change should be expected to increase Storm/Cloud among half giant choices relative to all the half giants. Stone are effectively off the table at Major for the stat disparity, and Fire/Frost already not very popular are now in a reward slot competing with the ever popular Tieflings.

As for my feedback. If Stone Giants are going to be locked at major rewards for their foreseeable future. Can they have their many discouraging nerfs reversed? I probably stand alone to have been nearly the only player to have spent two greater rewards (these have been my only ever Greaters, never any majors). First one rolled, soon after the constitution nerf which was pretty impactful in a negative way, I just couldn't make up for the stat shift in a manner that could fit comfortably.

Second greater I was really looking hard at frost, even had a friend help figure out a few builds that I would have been great. But still am not a fan of the dwarfs pheno *"(Including their limited and terrible heads)** , and I would have been Druid against their suggestions for build strategy, so I could have form options... But spending a rare and precious reward, to play a race and class I wasn't excited for felt like a mistake. So I bit the stat bullet, for stone again.
Last edited by Morto on Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Paint
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Paint »

I've got like, one sentence to say about this, yeah.

Stone half-giants were more popular than frost/fire because their phenotype doesn't look goofy at giant sizes, simple as. I'm not any more encouraged to play a fire/frost half-giant just because stone half-giants are off the table.

All this recent change is really going to do is prevent a lot of folks who were interested in half-giant RP from investing in it. If that was the team's intent, it's been managed wonderfully.

If not, then maybe this one should go back to the drawing board for a bit.

Edit:
Not trying to take up too much forum space but the idea of horc bodies with human heads would be pretty chill for frost gi- I swear I didn't mean that pun, but you get what I mean. I'd be with it.
Last edited by Paint on Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Svrtr
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Svrtr »

I am goin to be brief after the long post above, but another thing someone had mentioned was wishing that frost could at the VERY MINIMUM have the option of HOrc pheno with human head, in part because the human heads with helmets are immensely fitting for the flavor of half giants.
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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Party in the forest at midnight »

For me the worst part about the upscaled dwarf model is it has very limited heads vs humans. As awkward as the model looks, I think the lack of unique heads is a bigger discouragement. You are forced to play something that looks very dwarfy, and only dwarfy. Is there any way to have an upscaled model but with human head selection?
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by ALXSTYGLD »

Personally I think h’orc with access to human heads would fit well with frost and fire if it got more people playing those blood lines.

Im currently playing frost and although I’m a fan of the dwarf phenol know others aren’t That enamoured with it.
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Bruscar »

https://imgur.com/a/P99h24d

Half-Orc body looks pretty good to me. Left Side is Current Frost Half-Giant, Right Side is Half-Orc with Dwarf head.
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by AsteraceaeOculus »

I think Half Orc bodies would work the best for fire giants, and human bodies for Frost. I do like some of the Dwarf lady heads on Fire Giants, but I think the awkward look of dwarf bodies is what puts people off getting a giant. besides, with the new shift of something as popular as teiflings to greater awards, I feel that this will be decimating for the Half Giant population.
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Jaytega »

I came into the half-giant realm based on suggestion from a good friend. The driving factor for what flavor of half-giant was the backstory I wanted to build for my next character. I wanted the character to fit some IG tenants that were appropriate for their lineage and highly related to carrying on some established IG concepts I have built upon.

After reading into giant lore I came across the details of each flavor of giant and was immediately drawn to fire because of their love of the flame and forge and the fact that of all the races, according to Giantcraft of the Forgotten Realms, fire were those who considered Bravery one of the most maat tenets.

I had no clue what my giant would look like since you cant actually see it until the reward was applied, but I found it hilarious when my base model switched to that of a Dwarf. Now, Ill be frank, I didnt give a rats butt that it was a dwarven model, I happily spent an hour in the prismatic mirrors starting area getting a good fit for how I pictured this character. I had never rolled a dwarf before so finally looking through all those racial options was a bit of a treat.

It would be remiss to fail to bring up, however, that on more than a few occasions, my PC has been approached and either literally called a dwarf or been related to looking like a dwarf in game. I have always played it off appropriately but it just goes to show how people are interpreting the models and how it influences their perception of the character.
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Thigh Gap of Aeons »

Given how heads sets are rarely changed if at all the individual appearance of any race is very important to the avergae player, Even Kobold and Ogres wanted dynmaic models, everyone wants more fashion, the Giants shouldn't all look like enlarged spriggans wandering around. The race is rather illustrious costing an award but I'd hate so see people spend it on the more common reward races just for the sake of fashion.
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Waldo52 »

Half ogre when?

😢
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Watchful Glare »

I agree. Dwarf phenotype looks awful upscaled.
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Richrd »

Yes, dwarf phenotype upscaled looks like garbage.

Yes, stone half giants were obviously picked for the dommy mommy snu snu archetype because too many people playing this game want to be blatantly obvious degens instead of just going to Sinfar for that sort of crap.

Yes, firbolgs massively suffered from the same issue. Firbolgs and the seemingly inexistent DM oversight in regards to them were amongst my main reasons for taking another break from Arelith.

And obviously there were plenty of people who picked stone half giants over the other two for the EDR builds alone. Not for the roleplay.

Bit sad, innit?


Half-giant races and firbolgs should've been app only. Wonder how many of them don't even know what the ordning is or how many commit to massive character flaws that are just unseemly for their race and then excuse it away with "the tribe I hail from allows this". No, it doesn't. Stop trying so damn hard to be extra super sauce special. Go play a max height human and stop lowering the quality of RP.
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Svrtr »

Richrd wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:26 am Yes, dwarf phenotype upscaled looks like garbage.

Yes, stone half giants were obviously picked for the dommy mommy snu snu archetype because too many people playing this game want to be blatantly obvious degens instead of just going to Sinfar for that sort of crap.

Yes, firbolgs massively suffered from the same issue. Firbolgs and the seemingly inexistent DM oversight in regards to them were amongst my main reasons for taking another break from Arelith.

And obviously there were plenty of people who picked stone half giants over the other two for the EDR builds alone. Not for the roleplay.

Bit sad, innit?


Half-giant races and firbolgs should've been app only. Wonder how many of them don't even know what the ordning is or how many commit to massive character flaws that are just unseemly for their race and then excuse it away with "the tribe I hail from allows this". No, it doesn't. Stop trying so damn hard to be extra super sauce special. Go play a max height human and stop lowering the quality of RP.
I can say, as the current jarl of the jotunhold, that by and large this is untrue. A large number of half giants DO know the lore, adn while the firbolg-aggeddon rightfully left a sour taste, this problem has been far less endemic to the half giants. There might be some here and there, but basically all of the ones I have seen who have been and are active are not just tall humans. There have been some, but they have from experience so far been the minority.

While I wouldn't mind an application, I think it would then be better to make stone half giant greater again and app based, assuming that fire or frost don't get pheno changes to human or HOrc.

Call me biased though, but the half giant RPers have been by and large awesome, with their unique niche of auld speak, reverence for paganistic shamanism (save for the fire ones who love their smithing), respect to the ordning, maat hunts of wyrm, etc etc etc. People are playing half giants to play half giants, not just to be tall humans
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Richrd »

Svrtr wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:57 am right above
Seeing as I'm currently not playing I'll take your word on it. And this is good, definitely sounds like a vast improvement over what I experienced with firbolgs when I last played.
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Re: Fire/frost giant phenotype

Post by Hazard »

My Firbolg is as Firbolg as they come, and as much as the server mechanics would allow me. She hasn't even kept any gold or treasure that she didn't need for equipment. All of it is donated, anonymously. They're a wholesome angel.

And I've bumped into some others. I'd like to say my brief time playing with Jotunhold on that character, was lovely. The RP there was great, even if it did lean heavily into the Ordning and a bit away from Firbolg things, that was also a part of the story.

The only thing stopping me from playing that character is how boring I find druid mechanically, as a matter of opinion. It's such a great class in terms of power, but just shifting and left clicking around- Anyway. Rambling. That is why I am not around Jotunhold anymore, but the RP you made there is great. Big kudos to you!

But even on a character that couldn't be any far more removed or the polar opposite of "dommy mommy snu snu archetype"/"sinfar", I can understand why people would want to play something that they think looks nice, and unfortunately those other models just look .. Blergh.

It's the same reason I cannot possibly play a gnome. I love gnomes so much in d&d, but this bioware model?! Oh my GOD WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!?
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