On the topic of "Monsters"

[Amateur Hour]

I've been playing on the server for about two years now, and in that time I've noticed that periodically, the niceties of the definition of "monster" pop up frequently.

Take the case of a drow blatantly entering Guldorand; I've seen this several times. And at least a few of those times, the drow in question has insisted that they are not a monster. Yes, this is an IC argument, but there's an OOC argument to be made: the drow are explicitly listed in the wiki as being humanoid, not "monstrous", and the Guldorand Charter only forbids "monstrous" and "beastly" races. This usually ends up in an argument IC where someone starts to defend the drow based on the Charter, someone might argue back, and that's all well and good for IC interactions...but more importantly, as per the recent thread that came up on the matter, if a monster blatantly enters a surface settlement without any attempt at subterfuge, that's a rule-break. And when we're supposed to be sending in reports for rule-breaks, we need clear definitions of what those rules are.

(I've typically followed the rule of "if the race can only start in Andunor or in Sencliff, it's a monster", but as far as I can tell that's not explicitly stated anywhere, and if it is, that statement probably shouldn't be as hidden as it is.)

I think we need some clarity from On High - as in, explicit list of races and sub-races - for what players should consider to be "monstrous" or "beastly" for the sake of grounding the setting and sending in reports, keeping in mind their characters may have differing opinions. Heck, does "beastly" include kenku, since they're superficially so much like animals?

---

Edits:
1. Wording adjustment for clarity.
2. I have evidently forgotten what commas are.
3. Accidentally deleted some words in an earlier edit.

[God_In_Action]

I always thought that the status of drow was always the clearest of cases, to the point that I'm surprised that this is in doubt for any player. To be honest, what I think is far less clear are the case of duergar, who once upon a time seem to have been treated like drow but scope is apparently given for a more neutral (if uneasy) position for duergar to be traders and acceptable at the margins of surface settlements.

[Hazard]

"Definitive Drow policy - Arelith policy concerning Drow with explanations" on the Drow section of Arelith's wiki.
When clicked. Takes you here:
https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Playing_any ... 2C_and_why

[Tarkus the dog]

isn't this the natural outcome of letting kenku, tieflings, half-giants, half-orcs, gloaming, avariel, duergar and chromatic red dragon disciples pass through guldorand

looks like an IC thing to me more than anything else. i'll agree that drow are monsters, but if i were an average guldorand commoner I'd also put chromatic red dragon discipline on that list, alongside fire/cold half-giants, tieflings and gloamings.

[Amateur Hour]

I'm not in disagreement that there's an IC component; our characters can argue forever in the Guldorand square what fraction of your skin needs to be covered in scales or feathers before you are considered enough of a "beast" to have to leave.

My concern, the reason I made this thread, is that we, the players, are supposed to be submitting reports if "monsters" behave in certain ways. And we do not have a clear definition as players for what a "monster" is so we can write reports accordingly (or, on the other side of the coin, ensure that "monster" characters can clearly know they are monsters and roleplay accordingly so no one has to submit any reports).

[Hazard]

isn't this the natural outcome of letting kenku, tieflings, half-giants, half-orcs, gloaming, avariel, duergar and chromatic red dragon disciples pass through guldorand

looks like an IC thing to me more than anything else. i'll agree that drow are monsters, but if i were an average guldorand commoner I'd also put chromatic red dragon discipline on that list, alongside fire/cold half-giants, tieflings and gloamings.

You'd be a very odd commoner, then, with a list like that.

[Tarkus the dog]

yeah i hear you, i didnt mean to ignore that, sorry

its just more so the issue if the admin team tells us which races are monsters that should be reported, and which are not, it just defaults to all the other obviously monstrous looking races to be normalized.

and from there on it's basically difficult to roleplay a character who isn't keen on seeing monstrous looking races around, because the OOC rule is that they are allowed

[Morgy]

Drow have a reputation for being worse than monsters, even if they do not look like ‘monsters’. Children would grow up hearing of their cunning, cruelty and wicked hearts.. any adventurer meeting one would undoubtably report this as true, assuming they survived.

Remember, we are talking about drow as a race here, not that ‘friendly’ drow PC you met once in the woods.. Arelith has a disproportionate amount of passive/neutral/secret good drow if you ask me, and I can’t say I’m a fan of it. It’s not so great for server health.

[Aradin]

Arelith's an absolute zoo nowadays (too much so in my opinion, but I'm a grouch about this sort of thing ). I get why it's becoming more difficult to keep track of which races get the surface pass and which don't. And the lines get even more blurred with races like tieflings, who are direct descendants of a demon or devil, carry evil in their souls, have gross physical alterations, and are so reviled they are usually killed at birth (all direct quotes from the Arelith wiki so don't @ me) but are welcome in every surface settlement, and gloamings, who are Underdark creatures who start in Andunor but are also welcome on the surface.

The more monstrous races we add in as player races, the more confusing it becomes to keep track of it all. That said, all of the races' entries on the Arelith wiki are very clear about which races are welcome where. When in doubt about a race being in a place I'd check that. In the example of drow, they have to be the most "not welcome on the surface" race out of all of them.

[Morgy]

Arelith's an absolute zoo nowadays (too much so in my opinion, but I'm a grouch about this sort of thing ). I get why it's becoming more difficult to keep track of which races get the surface pass and which don't. And the lines get even more blurred with races like tieflings, who are direct descendants of a demon or devil, carry evil in their souls, have gross physical alterations, and are so reviled they are usually killed at birth (all direct quotes from the Arelith wiki so don't @ me) but are welcome in every surface settlement, and gloamings, who are Underdark creatures who start in Andunor but are also welcome on the surface.

The more monstrous races we add in as player races, the more confusing it becomes to keep track of it all. That said, all of the races' entries on the Arelith wiki are very clear about which races are welcome where. When in doubt about a race being in a place I'd check that. In the example of drow, they have to be the most "not welcome on the surface" race out of all of them.

I think these are good points. Sometimes I feel real life tolerance/open mindedness comes into RP a bit too much for DnD world, and it makes it all a little bit soft for a universe that should be full of strife and conflict between races and peoples.

[kinginyellow]

So I rarely play surface but I'm going to chime in.

Monster would describe something that goes beyond Tiefling and Half-Orc. Which are races that can exist within a civilized world but generally are looked down on by most other races due to their racial heritage.

I generally agree with the idea that if a character starts in the Underdark they probably shouldn't get to walk around in most surface settlements. I mean, humans with the Outcast tag don't get to without a disguise, why should a Gloaming?

People react poorly to what's strange and unusual. Though I also agree with other posters that with fey being playable, and half-giants, things have gotten a bit blurry because Arelith also doesn't support the middle ground that half-giants, tieflings and half-orcs should realistically experience. These races are undesireables, and would exist in places where polite society doesn't look. But as a level 3 character you can't go straight to Sibayad where your existance would be tolerated due to your usefulness in solving problems for the Merchant's League.

On the other hand, delegating all strange things to Andunor also isn't a solution, because its also not realistic.

This is what leads to the Drow Debacle. Because with you having to make justifications for why other undesireables get to stick around, why not extend that to gloamings? And to Drow? Why not Orogs and Orcs?

It might be easier to just say that something that starts in the Underdark just shouldn't openly be in any surface settlement and leave it at that. Obviously you can't just put on a rules board for a settlement "No Underdarkers" because that's incredibly immersion breaking, but anyone enforcing these rules in character can also just say anyone arguing for 'tolerance for monsters' is arguing in bad faith and execute their lawful mandate regardless.

[Mattamue]

There's some nuance and in-character stories to be had about the gray areas. How valuable or good those stories are is debatable, but there is room for it.

Out of character there's guidance about what characters are allowed where. If that's unclear because the information is spread across several wiki pages and announcement threads, if the administration wants, it would be very easy to have a dm-directed wiki table clarifying what characters are OOCly report-able & where they should be.

[Amateur Hour]

Out of character there's guidance about what characters are allowed where. If that's unclear because the information is spread across several wiki pages and announcement threads, if the administration wants, it would be very easy to have a dm-directed wiki table clarifying what characters are OOCly report-able & where they should be.

This would be ideal, in my mind. We've got several wiki pages that are compiled from many admin/DM quotes with shifting contexts over the last 10+ years, and definitions are unclear (for example, "underdark race" doesn't include goblins when you're looking at the crafting system last I checked because goblins are native to the surface, so travel restrictions based on the term "underdark race" are murky). If we could get a table with all the races, and columns for things like whether they are allowed to hang out openly in surface settlements, whether they would be conventionally defined as a "monster" (characters, of course, being free to disagree), whether they should roleplay light sensitivity, etc. it would be useful for everyone - both as someone observing others and as someone who wants to make sure they're roleplaying within the rules.

[MischeviousMeerkat]

isn't this the natural outcome of letting kenku, tieflings, half-giants, half-orcs, gloaming, avariel, duergar and chromatic red dragon disciples pass through guldorand

looks like an IC thing to me more than anything else. i'll agree that drow are monsters, but if i were an average guldorand commoner I'd also put chromatic red dragon discipline on that list, alongside fire/cold half-giants, tieflings and gloamings.

^
Myon doesn't have this problem.

[Hazard]

isn't this the natural outcome of letting kenku, tieflings, half-giants, half-orcs, gloaming, avariel, duergar and chromatic red dragon disciples pass through guldorand

looks like an IC thing to me more than anything else. i'll agree that drow are monsters, but if i were an average guldorand commoner I'd also put chromatic red dragon discipline on that list, alongside fire/cold half-giants, tieflings and gloamings.

^
Myon doesn't have this problem.

Actually, tieflings, half-giants, half-orcs, gloaming, avariel and RDD have all been welcome in Myon.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

This isn't a new phenomenon and anyone claiming it is has some selective memory. Blaming new award races or Guldorand for it is obnoxious. And people claiming that the charter allows drow are even more obnoxious. Why is it always drow, kobolds, or gnolls that people start defending.

I'll also chime in that I saw a monster in Guld recently. I didn't even realize it was a monster, the model didn't look monstrous. It might be hobgoblin or something? I have no idea what it was. The player had an OOC disguise name which is why I even noticed them in the first place, other people told me it was a monster. If the team wants it to be more immediately recognizable as a monster, that model could be changed up to look more monstrous, zoomed out it looks like a man in some new clothing model.

[Mattamue]

table with all the races, and columns for things like whether they are allowed to hang out openly in surface settlements, whether they would be conventionally defined as a "monster" (characters, of course, being free to disagree), whether they should roleplay light sensitivity, etc.

Quick clarification. I envisioned something simpler. Strictly OOC guidance on what is worth a report to the DMs.

But, we'll see what the admin says. They may be happy with the status quo. Calls for hyper-specific rules like this have come up before and I think, wisely, the admin has said to rely on common sense.

[MischeviousMeerkat]

isn't this the natural outcome of letting kenku, tieflings, half-giants, half-orcs, gloaming, avariel, duergar and chromatic red dragon disciples pass through guldorand

looks like an IC thing to me more than anything else. i'll agree that drow are monsters, but if i were an average guldorand commoner I'd also put chromatic red dragon discipline on that list, alongside fire/cold half-giants, tieflings and gloamings.

^
Myon doesn't have this problem.

Actually, tieflings, half-giants, half-orcs, gloaming, avariel and RDD have all been welcome in Myon.

You're right. I was more hyperfocusing on the drow and monster bit. Avariel should be welcome in Myon though.

[Amateur Hour]

Calls for hyper-specific rules like this have come up before and I think, wisely, the admin has said to rely on common sense.

At this point, it seems as if the definition of "common sense" is no longer common, which is why I am specifically hoping we can receive clarity so it can become common.

Many people come to Arelith with little Forgotten Realms lore background, and many have only recent Forgotten Realms lore background, where they've dramatically walked back the idea of inherently evil or monstrous races. The fact this - monstrous races coming to the surface without any attempt at disguising or hiding themselves - keeps happening and so few people send in reports is testament to the fact it's unclear that this is a thing that should be reported.

[AstralUniverse]

Common sense is that if a creature is native to the underdark, the odds are that a sensible surfacer will view them as monsters. Gloaming are outsiders and dont look as monstrous as say... kobold or goblin. Gloaming find themselves in the underdark more due to light sensitivity than baing native to the underdark. I've personally always found it puzzling that Duergars arent considered monsters on the surface even in the lore, but drow are definitely as monster as it gets. Even worse than monster. Every drow is an intelligent and deceptive mass murderer, or one in the making. That's why there's a hard rule that good alignment Drow cant escape to live on the surface and make too many friends there, because that really doesnt happen in FR even if the drow is a paladin. So I'm personally puzzled about duergars more than I am about the rest of our races scope. The place of Drow on the surface is very clear to me - baking in the sun to death. -Jim the commoner.

[Monsters]

Back when Obama was in office, I took a break from Arelith and tried Amia. I made a character, logged in, was greeted by an elf with bat wings who said something cool and then literally flew away and so I logged out. My opinion really does not matter, but I don't like all the snowflakes on the server. They despoil my precious immersion when it comes specificly to how commoners would react. I could understand it if Guldorand/Cordor/whatever surface settlement was under a despot's rule like Zhentil Keep or something. Maybe my interpretation of FR is off and winged dragon worshippers and half-giant baby eaters would not be shunned in polite society.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

This is actually an interesting topic, and one I thought about a lot over the last few months as I tried out a Shadovar. Traditionally shadow mages on arelith want to hide that they are shadow mages, and any shadovar wizard is definitely going to be a shadow mage. But on the flip side, on Arelith the Shadovar aren't some secret things slowly appearing on the prime again from time to time before eventually their city reemerged from the shadowplane. Literally everyone and their tormite mothers go through the shadovar trade post. Imagine what would logically happen there if people in say Cordor started pitch forking shadovar passing through. The Shadovar are limited in number and wouldn't take kindly to that. So, the next time some hero tried to wisk away from an evil pvp mob via an attunement potion, realistically (and yes, it's just a game) the shadovar would just start slaughtering them.

So why am I talking about the Shadovar and the trade post when this thread is about monsters from the underdark?


Becuase Anundor presents the same issues. As does Dis. And every other location that allows anyone to freely pass through despite those who live there naturally not being welcomed in reverse. So thematically, it gets a bit confusing. And gameplay wise it creates a serious unbalance. It's an unbalance that probably wasn't much of an issue for years on arelith, because at least if you went the meme build route you were slightly more powerful than the surface races, but that's long gone these days.


Anyways, I don't have any solutions to present, which is so not like me. Just those observations above to take from what you will

[Svrtr]

Common sense is that if a creature is native to the underdark, the odds are that a sensible surfacer will view them as monsters. Gloaming are outsiders and dont look as monstrous as say... kobold or goblin. Gloaming find themselves in the underdark more due to light sensitivity than baing native to the underdark. I've personally always found it puzzling that Duergars arent considered monsters on the surface even in the lore, but drow are definitely as monster as it gets. Even worse than monster. Every drow is an intelligent and deceptive mass murderer, or one in the making. That's why there's a hard rule that good alignment Drow cant escape to live on the surface and make too many friends there, because that really doesnt happen in FR even if the drow is a paladin. So I'm personally puzzled about duergars more than I am about the rest of our races scope. The place of Drow on the surface is very clear to me - baking in the sun to death. -Jim the commoner.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 70b3ba.png

People calling duergar just "The dwarf version of drow" don't know duergar then. Their animosity is SOLELY for shield dwarves as a race but they regularly trade with surface races, especially humans who value the power of their magical works. Duergar don't regularly go on slaving runs against every and all surface race, and don't have a history of the vile vitriol against the surface as a whole.

They're more akin to gold dwarves in the following:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 0b19a1.png

They're bitter and dour but they're not idiots. They're in a sense smugly proud of what they are and how they overcame the illithids, and even fairly often trade with gold dwarves. They're pragmatic to the nth degree, and for this they're not seeking war with half the UD on a basis nor regularly conniving and doing the stuff drow do. Duergar are, in that sense, much like svirfneblin, concerned with their own well being for their holds given their yet lawful lean.


In this too, gold dwarves who come to arelith and hate all duergar on basis are just wrong. Gold dwarves look down on both shield and duergar as stated above, and believe themselves the best dwarves. Umbrick is a reason to hate the legion of Umbrick but not the whole duergan race.

Edit: For reference, these excerpts are from the races of faerun book

[The GrumpyCat]

I'm PURELY going to answer the question here: What Races Should I Report To The Dm Team If They Are Openly and Blatently Entering Surface Settlments.(*)

• Drow
  Goblin
  Hobgoblin
  Kobold
  Gnoll
  Orog
  Ogre
  Minotaur
  Troglodyte
  Derro

The following races, whilst absolutly NOT barred from surface settlments at all, probably shouldn't be wandering about in their 'natural' forms in them either. (This may be a silly thing to add because, to our players credit, I've NEVER seen any of these players do this, or had any reports of it - but I'm adding this for completion.

• Imp
  Hag
  Rackshasa
  Yuan'ti

The thing to remember here, is that this is not about PC reaction in so much as it's about NPC reaction. As PCs, even on some meta level, we all know that if we die we can respawn. For NPCs - for the most part? Death. Is. Death. They would simply not allow any of the above into their settlments. Drow may not /technically/ be monster races in appearence, but they are certainly 'monsterious' in attitude for the most part.

With all this being said, as I checked on the wiki it does show Drow not being in the 'monsterious' catagory. I think I might work to change that in the near future, if only for clarity.


(* If the pc is trying to make an effort to disguise themselves, or even stealth themselves, this is less of an issue. We got rid of the kill scripts for a reason. A certain amount of subterfuge is fine. This just covers those who are wandering in in all their monsterious glory!)

[Aradin]

I'm PURELY going to answer the question here: What Races Should I Report To The DM Team If They Are Openly and Blatantly Entering Surface Settlements.(*)

• Drow
  Goblin
  Hobgoblin
  Kobold
  Gnoll
  Orog
  Ogre
  Minotaur
  Troglodyte
  Derro

I personally would say that based on the wiki & Faerun lore duergar should be added to this list for Brogendenstein specifically since they're mortal enemies with surface dwarves. I imagine Brogendenstein NPCs would attack duergar on sight. Confirm or deny?