On the topic of "Monsters"

[The GrumpyCat]

I left Derugar off because Irongron recently changed it and whilst it makes sense for lore and stuff it... kinda wierd things out? Esp as Derugar can probably pass for Dwarves easily enough if covered and eugherhfhhghfgh... *headache intensifies*

Yes you're right? A Deurgar should also be reported if traveling openly in Brog. But I was going for overall strokes.

[Svrtr]

I'm PURELY going to answer the question here: What Races Should I Report To The DM Team If They Are Openly and Blatantly Entering Surface Settlements.(*)

• Drow
  Goblin
  Hobgoblin
  Kobold
  Gnoll
  Orog
  Ogre
  Minotaur
  Troglodyte
  Derro

I personally would say that based on the wiki & Faerun lore duergar should be added to this list for Brogendenstein specifically since they're mortal enemies with surface dwarves. I imagine Brogendenstein NPCs would attack duergar on sight. Confirm or deny?

While its from a while back, duergar being allowed on the surface is 100% an exception in Brog. Duergar are not whatsoever welcome in brog as brog is (per lore) predominantly more shield dwarf oriented, in part because gold dwarves leaving the great rift is a more recent occurrence with the thunderblessing around 1300 DR. To a lesser degree bendir dale too due to the earthkin alliance. I welcome Grumpy to reiterate it but Ill see if I can find it

[Watchful Glare]

Calls for hyper-specific rules like this have come up before and I think, wisely, the admin has said to rely on common sense.

At this point, it seems as if the definition of "common sense" is no longer common, which is why I am specifically hoping we can receive clarity so it can become common.

Many people come to Arelith with little Forgotten Realms lore background, and many have only recent Forgotten Realms lore background, where they've dramatically walked back the idea of inherently evil or monstrous races. The fact this - monstrous races coming to the surface without any attempt at disguising or hiding themselves - keeps happening and so few people send in reports is testament to the fact it's unclear that this is a thing that should be reported.

It has to be a disguise. We should put that out there more clearly. if a DM sees you invisible inside a city they will punish you because "some NPCs have True Seeing" (Either some of the civilians do and or the normal guards do, it's unclear.)

[Richrd]

Hm ... I don't get what's always the fuss with drows.

They aren't just dark skinned elves, if that's what anyone is thinking. They are inherently evil for many reasons. Culture, religion, the environment they live in forcing it upon them.

Forgot what it's called but pretty sure this is official canon.
Drow twins cannibalize each other inside their mother's womb, which causes her to receive intense pleasures. A great motivator and explanation for the ridiculous birth rate compared to other elf races.

[Whosdis]

Forgot what it's called but pretty sure this is official canon.
Drow twins cannibalize each other inside their mother's womb, which causes her to receive intense pleasures. A great motivator and explanation for the ridiculous birth rate compared to other elf races.

Yeah, that's from one of the Dragon Magazines. Flesh For Lolth: The Secret Life of Dark Elves.
A note that the Ilythiiri Dark Elves were known for their high birthrates even predating the Crown Wars.

[The GrumpyCat]

Hm ... I don't get what's always the fuss with drows.

They aren't just dark skinned elves, if that's what anyone is thinking. They are inherently evil for many reasons. Culture, religion, the environment they live in forcing it upon them.

Forgot what it's called but pretty sure this is official canon.
Drow twins cannibalize each other inside their mother's womb, which causes her to receive intense pleasures. A great motivator and explanation for the ridiculous birth rate compared to other elf races.

Whilst this is of course at least true (Or I think it is? I've a feeling that article may refer to none-FR drow... but I may be wrong! It's irrelevent anyway) - The thing to remember is not so much how evil drow actually are- but rather how terrible a reputation they have.

The issue isn't neccesaraly whether pcs would accept Drow/Gnoll/whatever into the settlment, it's rather that it's something the NPCs will not tolerate.

[Ebonstar]

easy way to fix any doubts what is a monster is to turn the kill scripts back on and let the UD take a stroll near settlements.

If you die you are a monster, if you dont you are not.

if you want canon answers, Drow and other monsters are bedtime stories for children that have been bad.

eat your vegetables or the Drow will take you from your bed etc

Leave the everyone should be included mindset far from IG, as you dont choose to play a monster to be invited to a flowery picnic.

[Morgy]

Leave the everyone should be included mindset far from IG, as you dont choose to play a monster to be invited to a flowery picnic.

This for sure.

Conflict RP can be as, if not more, inclusive than any other if you do it right!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Instead of kill scripts I think something like PotM's outcast rating would be better. The kill scripts, from what I heard, would just straight up kill you for being near a settlement which is goofy. The OCR system gives you a rating for how unliked you are someplace, and NPCs will react hostile to you if you're disliked enough. So if monsters want to be in town they need to be a lot more careful about it.

[Watchful Glare]

Instead of kill scripts I think something like PotM's outcast rating would be better. The kill scripts, from what I heard, would just straight up kill you for being near a settlement which is goofy. The OCR system gives you a rating for how unliked you are someplace, and NPCs will react hostile to you if you're disliked enough. So if monsters want to be in town they need to be a lot more careful about it.

This would be wonderful really. If we could have NPC Guards attack monsters on sight/shout the alarm via script, similar to how the Garda and NPC Garda work in PotM.

Or be refused service if your character is meant to be prejudiced against. (Tieflings, for one, if I remember correctly.)

(They have a 'shout' system that works in adjacent areas. Guard PCs and NPCs can blow a horn that can be heard across, as a ways of 'rising the alarm'.)

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Yeah. It'd be a way to have duergar be unwelcome in Brogendenstein, if NPCs wouldn't interact with them and insult them instead. I think that's a lot more interesting than kill scripts, and it deals with it in the game world in a way that explains the lore.

[Morgy]

I do like the idea of NPCs engaging in combat with obvious monster PCs, but this will definitely just result in dead NPCs all over the place. There could be some superpowered NPC guards placed that react, I suppose, in obvious spots like the main thoroughfares of settlements etc. This would allow legit sneak attempts around the quieter areas of settlements for assassinations/sneaky plots, without allowing free reign.

For example, there could be a twinked-up guard outside the Cordor Palace gates and barracks, and in the Golden Halls main hallway.. or within Bendir's inn.. Those kind of places.

Yet another option would be to spawn superpowered NPC guards in these areas, if monsters are detected by any NPC (or drow types who's disguises are broken), that then attack them. This is a bit like the 'drow hit squads' that sometimes spawn on the Ice Road in the presence of surfacers.

[The GrumpyCat]

I do like the idea of NPCs engaging in combat with obvious monster PCs, but this will definitely just result in dead NPCs all over the place. There could be some superpowered NPC guards placed that react, I suppose, in obvious spots like the main thoroughfares of settlements etc. This would allow legit sneak attempts around the quieter areas of settlements for assassinations/sneaky plots, without allowing free reign.

For example, there could be a twinked-up guard outside the Cordor Palace gates and barracks, and in the Golden Halls main hallway.. or within Bendir's inn.. Those kind of places.

Yet another option would be to spawn superpowered NPC guards in these areas, if monsters are detected by any NPC (or drow types who's disguises are broken), that then attack them. This is a bit like the 'drow hit squads' that sometimes spawn on the Ice Road in the presence of surfacers.

I see where people are coming from here, but I think this method has its flaws too. Even with super powered npcs, unless we literally made them invulnerable (and I don't think 'Gron really is up for making too many super powered npcs) they would end up dead. If it was peak time pcs might help, if not the Underdarkers would be given free reign of an area. I can even see Underdarkers treating it as a bragging right. 'Yeah I went to Cordor and killed one of their best guards! They will FEAR ME NOW!'

For what it's worth, /IF/ we pushed for the return of the old Kill Script (and make no mistake, this isn't something I want. I actually think it's cool that underdarkers can now sneak into settlments, if careful, and gather information/secrets, even if very subtle and very careful make covert assassination attempts!) I'd much rather it was replaced with a similar idea, but just a 100% proof 'exile' type script. As in - cannot be beaten by any amount of bluff at all. Absolutly impermiable. Your pc sees the ranked masses of guards et al and decides this is Not A Good Idea.

[Morgy]

I do like the idea of NPCs engaging in combat with obvious monster PCs, but this will definitely just result in dead NPCs all over the place. There could be some superpowered NPC guards placed that react, I suppose, in obvious spots like the main thoroughfares of settlements etc. This would allow legit sneak attempts around the quieter areas of settlements for assassinations/sneaky plots, without allowing free reign.

For example, there could be a twinked-up guard outside the Cordor Palace gates and barracks, and in the Golden Halls main hallway.. or within Bendir's inn.. Those kind of places.

Yet another option would be to spawn superpowered NPC guards in these areas, if monsters are detected by any NPC (or drow types who's disguises are broken), that then attack them. This is a bit like the 'drow hit squads' that sometimes spawn on the Ice Road in the presence of surfacers.

I see where people are coming from here, but I think this method has its flaws too. Even with super powered npcs, unless we literally made them invulnerable (and I don't think 'Gron really is up for making too many super powered npcs) they would end up dead. If it was peak time pcs might help, if not the Underdarkers would be given free reign of an area. I can even see Underdarkers treating it as a bragging right. 'Yeah I went to Cordor and killed one of their best guards! They will FEAR ME NOW!'

For what it's worth, /IF/ we pushed for the return of the old Kill Script (and make no mistake, this isn't something I want. I actually think it's cool that underdarkers can now sneak into settlments, if careful, and gather information/secrets, even if very subtle and very careful make covert assassination attempts!) I'd much rather it was replaced with a similar idea, but just a 100% proof 'exile' type script. As in - cannot be beaten by any amount of bluff at all. Absolutly impermiable. Your pc sees the ranked masses of guards et al and decides this is Not A Good Idea.

I think kill scripts are the worst possible option. There are legitmate RP options for disguisable underdark races to sneak around settlements and this is a 'punish the many for the few' kind of tool, I think.

What about a script, that if you are an 'obvious' monster race, or like a drow who's disguise is broken by an npc, you get a floaty text warning like - 'You've been spotted by a guard! You hear many footsteps converging on your location!', NPCs shouting, then an increasingly high damage script activates after 30 seconds (Not sure if possible, but some animation like a bunch of arrows landing on a PC would be cool to explain the death to others PCs). This would allow legitimate attempts at infiltration without making NPCs seem so impotent.

[UilliamNebel]

I do like the idea of NPCs engaging in combat with obvious monster PCs, but this will definitely just result in dead NPCs all over the place. There could be some superpowered NPC guards placed that react, I suppose, in obvious spots like the main thoroughfares of settlements etc. This would allow legit sneak attempts around the quieter areas of settlements for assassinations/sneaky plots, without allowing free reign.

For example, there could be a twinked-up guard outside the Cordor Palace gates and barracks, and in the Golden Halls main hallway.. or within Bendir's inn.. Those kind of places.

Yet another option would be to spawn superpowered NPC guards in these areas, if monsters are detected by any NPC (or drow types who's disguises are broken), that then attack them. This is a bit like the 'drow hit squads' that sometimes spawn on the Ice Road in the presence of surfacers.

I see where people are coming from here, but I think this method has its flaws too. Even with super powered npcs, unless we literally made them invulnerable (and I don't think 'Gron really is up for making too many super powered npcs) they would end up dead. If it was peak time pcs might help, if not the Underdarkers would be given free reign of an area. I can even see Underdarkers treating it as a bragging right. 'Yeah I went to Cordor and killed one of their best guards! They will FEAR ME NOW!'

For what it's worth, /IF/ we pushed for the return of the old Kill Script (and make no mistake, this isn't something I want. I actually think it's cool that underdarkers can now sneak into settlments, if careful, and gather information/secrets, even if very subtle and very careful make covert assassination attempts!) I'd much rather it was replaced with a similar idea, but just a 100% proof 'exile' type script. As in - cannot be beaten by any amount of bluff at all. Absolutly impermiable. Your pc sees the ranked masses of guards et al and decides this is Not A Good Idea.

Agreed with this, which is why I'd advocate for direct DM interaction on the case by case as seen basis. PC in place they should not be, DM possesses a guard character (or spawns in a DM NPC for this) and drives the character off, or kills it if they try to fight it out. Same way I and other DMs have done at the pen and paper tabletop when a PC acts as if the setting is not a character, and can crush them, like someone atop a mountain playing with gravity. Whole point would be the example making, not the introduction of an entire system that would unduly punish folk playing characters with common sense.

[Morgy]

I do like the idea of NPCs engaging in combat with obvious monster PCs, but this will definitely just result in dead NPCs all over the place. There could be some superpowered NPC guards placed that react, I suppose, in obvious spots like the main thoroughfares of settlements etc. This would allow legit sneak attempts around the quieter areas of settlements for assassinations/sneaky plots, without allowing free reign.

For example, there could be a twinked-up guard outside the Cordor Palace gates and barracks, and in the Golden Halls main hallway.. or within Bendir's inn.. Those kind of places.

Yet another option would be to spawn superpowered NPC guards in these areas, if monsters are detected by any NPC (or drow types who's disguises are broken), that then attack them. This is a bit like the 'drow hit squads' that sometimes spawn on the Ice Road in the presence of surfacers.

I see where people are coming from here, but I think this method has its flaws too. Even with super powered npcs, unless we literally made them invulnerable (and I don't think 'Gron really is up for making too many super powered npcs) they would end up dead. If it was peak time pcs might help, if not the Underdarkers would be given free reign of an area. I can even see Underdarkers treating it as a bragging right. 'Yeah I went to Cordor and killed one of their best guards! They will FEAR ME NOW!'

For what it's worth, /IF/ we pushed for the return of the old Kill Script (and make no mistake, this isn't something I want. I actually think it's cool that underdarkers can now sneak into settlments, if careful, and gather information/secrets, even if very subtle and very careful make covert assassination attempts!) I'd much rather it was replaced with a similar idea, but just a 100% proof 'exile' type script. As in - cannot be beaten by any amount of bluff at all. Absolutly impermiable. Your pc sees the ranked masses of guards et al and decides this is Not A Good Idea.

Agreed with this, which is why I'd advocate for direct DM interaction on the case by case as seen basis. PC in place they should not be, DM possesses a guard character (or spawns in a DM NPC for this) and drives the character off, or kills it if they try to fight it out. Same way I and other DMs have done at the pen and paper tabletop when a PC acts as if the setting is not a character, and can crush them, like someone atop a mountain playing with gravity. Whole point would be the example making, not the introduction of an entire system that would unduly punish folk playing characters with common sense.

This is ideal, but highly unreliable as DMs can't be around all the time to respond which is why alternatives are needed.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

On PotM, people going on NPC murder sprees would end up with a big bounty put on them by the ruler of whatever area was attacked. I don't think you could automate that and have some sort of bounty system, people would start gaming it for money. It'd encourage people to attack settlements.

But with that said, currently nothing's stopping monsters right now from going and killing off every NPC in a settlement during off hours, and it's not happening. If there was an OCR system I don't think that'd suddenly change things. I also don't think NPCs need to be super powered either. The idea is that they would react to monsters and make a lot of noise about it, rather than outright killing them.

I agree that there should be an opportunity for monsters to sneak into settlements for subterfuge. I really do NOT want to see the kill scripts return, that's worse than monsters occasionally entering cities.

[Amateur Hour]

I like to think that having some DM clarity on the expected behavior from the players - both as monster players and as people observing monsters being played - will help clean up a lot of the worst of it. A DM doesn't have to be online for you to submit a report.

[Kalthariam]

If we're talking about implementing kill scripts or automatic damage scripts for Monsters being where they aren't welcome (Which is a stupid idea in my opinion), then we should also create a place where non-monsters get the same treatment.

It's always amazing that people get grumpy when monstrous characters explore the world, and then act like they should never leave the underdark ever for any reason. Then turn around and get offended that they get the same treatment back when they decide to go wander the underdark and visit cities, and cry that it's a trade city they shouldn't be immediately being attacked or people being hostile, and that the hub shouldn't be a place that people break out in fights in.

Sure a monstrous race shouldn't be blatantly walking into a city, but you have people that get offended that monsters are out in the wild, not anywhere near the cities, and act like if your a monster you should be only confided to the UD, which is absurd.

If people are wanting kill scripts in someway returned for monsters, then there should be scripts for surfacers wandering into Greyport, the Underdark Grove, the sharps, the devils table, saltspar, the trade post, ect ect.

people complain about monsterous races being warded and walking into surface areas clearly spoiling for a fight, but surfacers do this ALL THE TIME in the underdark, and suddenly everyones silent and nobody wants to talk about it.

[Rei_Jin]

The issue here is a mix of OOC ignorance and/or arrogance from players.

As much as I (the player) might wish for my Kobold (the character) to be able to go into Cordor and buy some apples, he’s not going to because (a) they’ll kill him on sight, and (b) he’d rather murder their people and take their apples than pay for them.

This is an IC setting restriction, and it exists for understandable reasons.

Monster isn’t the same as lacking a dynamic model.

Drow have dynamic models, as do Orogs, but they are functionally Outcasts with a far higher prejudice against them. Where an Outcast will be told to leave town, a Drow or Orog shouldn’t even be given that chance 90% of the time.

This is also known as “being a monster”.

Think of it like a mindflayer. They might be polite, they might be pleasant to have around if they wish to be, but their thinking is entirely alien, and they’d like nothing more than too much on your tasty brains.

Drow, as a RACE, would like nothing more than to slaughter or enslave your city, or worse. Individual Drow may not want this, but are you going to take that chance? The greengrocer and the butcher certainly are not!

I would genuinely love for kobolds, as merchants, to be permitted into surface cities. The Shadowclaw tribe are civilised and mercantile. But kobolds as a whole (in terms of the setting), are not, and so the majority here definitely shapes the response of said surface cities.

The DM response to players choosing to not play by server rules and respect the setting is to issue warnings, then temporary bans and/or MoDs, and if it persists, permanent bans.

Let’s try to avoid it getting to that please.

————

And on the topic of surfacers wandering around in Andunor? Yeah, that’s a thing, and I’ve been glad to see the boundary lines being drawn by DMs around slaves and such of late.

The less mainstream surfacers wandering around Andunor, the better. You’re a pirate, an assassin, a necromancer? Sure… try to earn your place. But the further from an Underdark race you are, the harder you should expect it to be, and the more bumps you should expect in that journey.

[Watchful Glare]

On PotM, people going on NPC murder sprees would end up with a big bounty put on them by the ruler of whatever area was attacked. I don't think you could automate that and have some sort of bounty system, people would start gaming it for money. It'd encourage people to attack settlements.

But with that said, currently nothing's stopping monsters right now from going and killing off every NPC in a settlement during off hours, and it's not happening. If there was an OCR system I don't think that'd suddenly change things. I also don't think NPCs need to be super powered either. The idea is that they would react to monsters and make a lot of noise about it, rather than outright killing them.

I agree that there should be an opportunity for monsters to sneak into settlements for subterfuge. I really do NOT want to see the kill scripts return, that's worse than monsters occasionally entering cities.

In regards to the "Big bounty":
That works on PotM because their death system is different. You need access to the body to resurrect (bring it to a priest, or have a PC cast Raise Dead) or you lose levels if you 'self resurrect'. And the leveling pace is very slow when compared to Arelith. Play for a year every day and you might reach level 18 kind of slow.

If the body is very damaged (happens with execution) you cannot self-resurrect until after X amount of time has gone by. Weeks to months usually.

But most importantly, it's not "the gold" as a bounty that makes it dangerous. Is that everyone that has a bounty is considered to be Opted In for PvP. Roleplay is not mandatory after you're Opted In, since it's considered to have happened prior. Which means you can be dropkicked from stealth. 0 to 100. Without any dialogue from that moment on. And that is considered due procedure, consequence of your actions. With the amount of PvP Arelith sees this sounds like it'd happen every time all the time, and anyone with a bounty would be griefed on to no end, and everything would be on fire. It doesn't really. People with a bounty on them just know how to lay low and not to take silly risks. Those that don't learn this, learn it quick. Some of them have had a bounty on them for months, or years.

In no small measure because if you try to kill someone with a bounty and fail, it might be your character that ends up turned into ash and scattered somewhere, waiting for that X amount of time to self-resurrect and lose levels. There's no easy way to aggress and be free of consequences, one way or the other.

For those further curious:
Bounties are also overseen by the DM Team, to keep consistency with them and making sure they fit the crime. Theoretically. They happen when a player character breaks the laws of the setting in the city, but almost always this is attacking and killing guards, resisting arrest, etc. As the Guards of the setting do not adventure and do not level (most), so almost everyone can kick their Snuggybear in PvP.

But really you don't want to get in trouble with the Garda not because you couldn't kill them all if you wanted to, they're just NPCs and low-mid level characters, but because of what'll happen to you afterwards and the long-term consequences of it.

In regards to the NPCs raising the alarm:
That would be wonderful. When you are sneaking into the city you're not afraid you'll have to fight a single person. You may have to- But if you can end the fight quickly you might be able to get away. What you don't want is someone blowing a horn and having the twenty mainstays player-characters, half of which may be warded to the teeth, immediately turn their nose in your general direction, mass hasting and start running your way.

You're on a timer when that happens. The moment a fight breaks out you have maybe thirty seconds to a minute tops to finish it and leave before the situation turns into an unwinnable 20vs1, and if you didn't leave by then, that's on you.

Then again, you might be punished OOCly just for fighting in a city (irregardless of if whether you started the fight or not, regardless of your reasons) if you are a monster race in a surface city. So bear that in mind.

I think that is worst than a kill script.

Because at least with a kill script you know it's not selective.

So I'd prefer the kill script.

[Waldo52]

I'd like to bring up half-orcs, as I believe they relate strongly to the issue at hand.

In my opinion the player base, myself included, does a terrible job at treating half-orcs properly. It's kind of a Forgotten Realms cliche that they're viewed distastefully everywhere they go and at the very least need to work harder to prove themselves. I really think we've stripped the race of its RP appeal by making orchood so banal.

I'm not saying HOs should be chased out of town by angry mobs, but treating them with a bit of unease would add some authenticity to the server and serve as a good bit of gatekeeping for truly monstrous races. So you're an Orog? If we only reluctantly accepted a half-orc into town, what chance do YOU have getting in?

[Hazard]

Sorry, but I'm throwing my hat in and I'd prefer the kill script too.
Too many times there have been Drow casually wandering Cordor. No disguise. No cover. Just invisibility.
Not surprised to hear it's happening in Guldorand too.

Some players just can't be trusted to roleplay the NPCs around them properly anymore.

I'd love for monster RP to allow some way to enter cities every so often for conflict, but there's too strong of an 'I must get my win' culture. Drow will absolutely ignore guards, over and over. I think bringing the kill script back for a good while would really send the message that 'Hey! You're NOT supposed to be here. There are guards EVERYWHERE who will kill you.'

It doesn't need to be permanent, but long enough for the culture to change and for people to shake off this idea that their character is the main character of the server and that all the guards would have stormtrooper aim.

[AstralUniverse]

I think it's cool that 'monsters' can sneak into settlements and spy.

If an underdarker just walks in the front gate, or if they're ignoring people who address them as the underdarker they are, and they dont RP concerned about it and dont, at any point, flee for their lives... then they deserve a report. If they make visible attempts to conceal themselves (pun unintended), use side roads, and flee in the second they realize their cover is blown, then I dont see any problem with it and it seems like reasonable RP.

[perseid]

I do like the idea of NPCs engaging in combat with obvious monster PCs, but this will definitely just result in dead NPCs all over the place. There could be some superpowered NPC guards placed that react, I suppose, in obvious spots like the main thoroughfares of settlements etc. This would allow legit sneak attempts around the quieter areas of settlements for assassinations/sneaky plots, without allowing free reign.

For example, there could be a twinked-up guard outside the Cordor Palace gates and barracks, and in the Golden Halls main hallway.. or within Bendir's inn.. Those kind of places.

Yet another option would be to spawn superpowered NPC guards in these areas, if monsters are detected by any NPC (or drow types who's disguises are broken), that then attack them. This is a bit like the 'drow hit squads' that sometimes spawn on the Ice Road in the presence of surfacers.

For what it's worth, /IF/ we pushed for the return of the old Kill Script (and make no mistake, this isn't something I want. I actually think it's cool that underdarkers can now sneak into settlments, if careful, and gather information/secrets, even if very subtle and very careful make covert assassination attempts!) I'd much rather it was replaced with a similar idea, but just a 100% proof 'exile' type script. As in - cannot be beaten by any amount of bluff at all. Absolutly impermiable. Your pc sees the ranked masses of guards et al and decides this is Not A Good Idea.

This is the kind of thing that would be better as maybe some kind of Mark no? It seems like a broad mechanic would just devalue the disguise system. Why not a mark that DMs can use as a punishment for egregious/repeat offenders which has the suggested effect?