On the topic of "Monsters"

[Hazard]

I do like the idea of NPCs engaging in combat with obvious monster PCs, but this will definitely just result in dead NPCs all over the place. There could be some superpowered NPC guards placed that react, I suppose, in obvious spots like the main thoroughfares of settlements etc. This would allow legit sneak attempts around the quieter areas of settlements for assassinations/sneaky plots, without allowing free reign.

For example, there could be a twinked-up guard outside the Cordor Palace gates and barracks, and in the Golden Halls main hallway.. or within Bendir's inn.. Those kind of places.

Yet another option would be to spawn superpowered NPC guards in these areas, if monsters are detected by any NPC (or drow types who's disguises are broken), that then attack them. This is a bit like the 'drow hit squads' that sometimes spawn on the Ice Road in the presence of surfacers.

For what it's worth, /IF/ we pushed for the return of the old Kill Script (and make no mistake, this isn't something I want. I actually think it's cool that underdarkers can now sneak into settlments, if careful, and gather information/secrets, even if very subtle and very careful make covert assassination attempts!) I'd much rather it was replaced with a similar idea, but just a 100% proof 'exile' type script. As in - cannot be beaten by any amount of bluff at all. Absolutly impermiable. Your pc sees the ranked masses of guards et al and decides this is Not A Good Idea.

This is the kind of thing that would be better as maybe some kind of Mark no? It seems like a broad mechanic would just devalue the disguise system. Why not a mark that DMs can use as a punishment for egregious/repeat offenders which has the suggested effect?

I don't want to leave it up to the DMs who does and doesn't get this mark, becuase frankly I don't think it will go to the correct players.

[Rei_Jin]

If players are behaving badly and you witness it, report it.

The more this happens, the more likely it is that DMs will intervene with said players.

[The GrumpyCat]

If players are behaving badly and you witness it, report it.

The more this happens, the more likely it is that DMs will intervene with said players.

This is good and a great first step.

When we have rules in place, we've a few ways of enforcing them. We can
a) ask nicely
b) Start enforcing more harshly
c) Go to a Mechanical Solution.

A mechanical solution has some benefits for sure. It ultimatly fair, it doesn't depend on us being about, it means a lot less work for us, the DMs.

But it also means a lot less flexibility.

For example - in the current situation PCs could grab an underdarker they caught sneaking around the hinterlands, drag him in chains to the city and publically execute him. A cool roleplay moment. Or it allows for a sneaky drow to be covert and gather information, and so on.

Add in a mechanical solution - whatever that may be - and some of the natural 'flex' of roleplay is lost.

So to those saying 'Please don't bing back Kill Scripts' I mostly agree, I'm with you. I don't want kill scripts returned either. I really don't.

But if this issue is as utterly endemic as claimed, then a mechanical solution - with all the issues that come with it, may be our best option.

That said it's a little difficult to tell how bad the sitaution is because... we're not getting that many reports on it. So to fix this in the near future the best thing is to send in reports that...
a) Means we can talk to the individuals doing this and remind them of the rules,
b) Means we get a picture - in the long run, of how bad this is.
c) IF after trying option a) we're still finding lots of players just ignoring this, we can look at implementing some sort of mechanical soltuion.

[Morgy]

If we're talking about implementing kill scripts or automatic damage scripts for Monsters being where they aren't welcome (Which is a stupid idea in my opinion), then we should also create a place where non-monsters get the same treatment.

It's always amazing that people get grumpy when monstrous characters explore the world, and then act like they should never leave the underdark ever for any reason. Then turn around and get offended that they get the same treatment back when they decide to go wander the underdark and visit cities, and cry that it's a trade city they shouldn't be immediately being attacked or people being hostile, and that the hub shouldn't be a place that people break out in fights in.

Come on now. People are suggesting monsters shouldn't be walking into populated cities without any kind of attempt at disguise/concealment. No one is upset they are exploring the world.

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

To re-iterate - monsters will never belong in surface cities, but most* surface races can be evil/dangerous enough to survive Andunor.

*Elves/Dwarves would be the entirely rare exception, even as slaves.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

A human hiding out in anundor because they are too vile for the surface, sure. A human ruling a district in Anundor, or holding any sort of politcal power at all? Yeah, I would say thats about on the same level of an ogre chilling out in Guldorand. But maybe thats just me, this is all opinion for the most part after all.

[Morgy]

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

A human hiding out in anundor because they are too vile for the surface, sure. A human ruling a district in Anundor, or holding any sort of politcal power at all? Yeah, I would say thats about on the same level of an ogre chilling out in Guldorand. But maybe thats just me, this is all opinion for the most part after all.

It is just opinion, but the concept of a human as a species in Andunor is not strange. An ogre in Guldorand will always be strange!

I don't think humans having significant power in such a place is all that odd, either. The city is a melting pot and has always been described as such, even with prominent drow houses.

[Hazard]

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

A human ruling a district in Anundor, or holding any sort of politcal power at all? Yeah, I would say thats about on the same level of an ogre chilling out in Guldorand.

I think you're thinking of Udos, or Pit Town.
Andunor has always had humans in positions of political power. Some of the most powerful political figures of Andunor have been humans.

This isn't a case of "Well if monsters can't hang out in surface towns, then humans can't hang out down here!"
Yes. Humans can and monsters can't. Andunor is not a Monster Only settlement.
The surface and the Underdark are not equal. Evil is not as restrictive as 'good'.

There are certain sacrifices people agree to make when they choose to play a monsterous race in this setting.

That doesn't mean I don't want a totally evil surface settlement that allows anyone and anything. I'd love that. I think the server really needs something like that and is lacking it. But that's not my call.

I dream of the day there's some spooky fortress city, with undead/necromancer guards, and ogres and goblins in the market. A surface reflection of Andunor. That would be sweet.

[Kalthariam]

If we're talking about implementing kill scripts or automatic damage scripts for Monsters being where they aren't welcome (Which is a stupid idea in my opinion), then we should also create a place where non-monsters get the same treatment.

It's always amazing that people get grumpy when monstrous characters explore the world, and then act like they should never leave the underdark ever for any reason. Then turn around and get offended that they get the same treatment back when they decide to go wander the underdark and visit cities, and cry that it's a trade city they shouldn't be immediately being attacked or people being hostile, and that the hub shouldn't be a place that people break out in fights in.

Come on now. People are suggesting monsters shouldn't be walking into populated cities without any kind of attempt at disguise/concealment. No one is upset they are exploring the world.

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

To re-iterate - monsters will never belong in surface cities, but most* surface races can be evil/dangerous enough to survive Andunor.

*Elves/Dwarves would be the entirely rare exception, even as slaves.

I've literally been hunted down and attacked, and threatened repeatedly for the sole crime of existing on the Surface server and not sailing, I've been threatened with death on countless occasions for poking around in places far away from civilization like the Minmir hills meadows away from town exploring, and poking around at bits of forest.

It's not a simple matter of "Don't walk into cities"

I don't walk into cities, I actively avoid them but if my character name is remotely known by people, suddenly I always bump into someone randomly happening to be waltzing around the same place as I am and I'm forced to withdraw or get in a fight I'm not going to win.

Yet surfaces literally waltz around Greyport fully buffed murdering people in broad daylight (As daylight as it gets in greyport) and I've never heard anyone say or do anything about that.

The sides aren't balanced, I'm well aware of this, however I'd personally -like- to have an area that isn't just EVERYONE pushed square together in Andunor and told 'Don't leave because your a monster, or die." (Or in super fun cases, they say leave or die, you go to leave, and they attack you anyways while your leaving) by the setting and basically every other character I've ever bumped into.

Literally being on the surface is "Grounds to be PvP'd" even if someone decides to just one line and immediately attack you, their own excuse they need to attack a monsterous PC on the surface is just them being a monsterous PC on the surface. (But oh no, if someone just attacks surfacers in the hub, it's breaking trade, we can't have that, penalized)

No one's reasonably arguing that monstrous PC's should be allowed to just waltz into cities fully warded and attack people (Like surfacers do, regularly to underdark districts and towns). I just find it absurd people are throwing around the idea of monsters getting hit with a kill script or just automated scripted damage to penalize them for daring to explore somewhere that isn't The very small realm that is the underdark, and bumping into the wrong places, and if people and suggest kill scripts for monsters wandering too close to towns, I'm going to suggest kill scripts for wanna be vigilante hero's stowing away into hostile territory to look for trouble. Guards attacking monsters for being near towns? Cool, Saltspar city guards should kill known paladins / chainbreakers waltzing around saltspar (Or you know, full on surface dwarves raiding parties attacking the city, PC's and guards included), guards in the trade post should kill the surface elves / wanna be black archers constantly stalking around the upper trading post.

[Morgy]

If we're talking about implementing kill scripts or automatic damage scripts for Monsters being where they aren't welcome (Which is a stupid idea in my opinion), then we should also create a place where non-monsters get the same treatment.

It's always amazing that people get grumpy when monstrous characters explore the world, and then act like they should never leave the underdark ever for any reason. Then turn around and get offended that they get the same treatment back when they decide to go wander the underdark and visit cities, and cry that it's a trade city they shouldn't be immediately being attacked or people being hostile, and that the hub shouldn't be a place that people break out in fights in.

Come on now. People are suggesting monsters shouldn't be walking into populated cities without any kind of attempt at disguise/concealment. No one is upset they are exploring the world.

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

To re-iterate - monsters will never belong in surface cities, but most* surface races can be evil/dangerous enough to survive Andunor.

*Elves/Dwarves would be the entirely rare exception, even as slaves.

I've literally been hunted down and attacked, and threatened repeatedly for the sole crime of existing on the Surface server and not sailing, I've been threatened with death on countless occasions for poking around in places far away from civilization like the Minmir hills meadows away from town exploring, and poking around at bits of forest.

It's not a simple matter of "Don't walk into cities"

I don't walk into cities, I actively avoid them but if my character name is remotely known by people, suddenly I always bump into someone randomly happening to be waltzing around the same place as I am and I'm forced to withdraw or get in a fight I'm not going to win.

Yet surfaces literally waltz around Greyport fully buffed murdering people in broad daylight (As daylight as it gets in greyport) and I've never heard anyone say or do anything about that.

The sides aren't balanced, I'm well aware of this, however I'd personally -like- to have an area that isn't just EVERYONE pushed square together in Andunor and told 'Don't leave because your a monster, or die." (Or in super fun cases, they say leave or die, you go to leave, and they attack you anyways while your leaving) by the setting and basically every other character I've ever bumped into.

Literally being on the surface is "Grounds to be PvP'd" even if someone decides to just one line and immediately attack you, their own excuse they need to attack a monsterous PC on the surface is just them being a monsterous PC on the surface. (But oh no, if someone just attacks surfacers in the hub, it's breaking trade, we can't have that, penalized)

No one's reasonably arguing that monstrous PC's should be allowed to just waltz into cities fully warded and attack people (Like surfacers do, regularly to underdark districts and towns). I just find it absurd people are throwing around the idea of monsters getting hit with a kill script or just automated scripted damage to penalize them for daring to explore somewhere that isn't The very small realm that is the underdark, and bumping into the wrong places, and if people and suggest kill scripts for monsters wandering too close to towns, I'm going to suggest kill scripts for wanna be vigilante hero's stowing away into hostile territory to look for trouble. Guards attacking monsters for being near towns? Cool, Saltspar city guards should kill known paladins / chainbreakers waltzing around saltspar (Or you know, full on surface dwarves raiding parties attacking the city, PC's and guards included), guards in the trade post should kill the surface elves / wanna be black archers constantly stalking around the upper trading post.

You’re not really addressing points in this thread. We are talking about monsters coming into surface settlements.

I’m not denying your problems outside settlements, but that’s not what kill scripts were ever about.

I say this to be helpful, but you seem to be misdirecting some anger and frustration here.

[Ebonstar]

If we're talking about implementing kill scripts or automatic damage scripts for Monsters being where they aren't welcome (Which is a stupid idea in my opinion), then we should also create a place where non-monsters get the same treatment.

It's always amazing that people get grumpy when monstrous characters explore the world, and then act like they should never leave the underdark ever for any reason. Then turn around and get offended that they get the same treatment back when they decide to go wander the underdark and visit cities, and cry that it's a trade city they shouldn't be immediately being attacked or people being hostile, and that the hub shouldn't be a place that people break out in fights in.

Come on now. People are suggesting monsters shouldn't be walking into populated cities without any kind of attempt at disguise/concealment. No one is upset they are exploring the world.

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

To re-iterate - monsters will never belong in surface cities, but most* surface races can be evil/dangerous enough to survive Andunor.

*Elves/Dwarves would be the entirely rare exception, even as slaves.

I've literally been hunted down and attacked, and threatened repeatedly for the sole crime of existing on the Surface server and not sailing, I've been threatened with death on countless occasions for poking around in places far away from civilization like the Minmir hills meadows away from town exploring, and poking around at bits of forest.

It's not a simple matter of "Don't walk into cities"

I don't walk into cities, I actively avoid them but if my character name is remotely known by people, suddenly I always bump into someone randomly happening to be waltzing around the same place as I am and I'm forced to withdraw or get in a fight I'm not going to win.

Yet surfaces literally waltz around Greyport fully buffed murdering people in broad daylight (As daylight as it gets in greyport) and I've never heard anyone say or do anything about that.

The sides aren't balanced, I'm well aware of this, however I'd personally -like- to have an area that isn't just EVERYONE pushed square together in Andunor and told 'Don't leave because your a monster, or die." (Or in super fun cases, they say leave or die, you go to leave, and they attack you anyways while your leaving) by the setting and basically every other character I've ever bumped into.

Literally being on the surface is "Grounds to be PvP'd" even if someone decides to just one line and immediately attack you, their own excuse they need to attack a monsterous PC on the surface is just them being a monsterous PC on the surface. (But oh no, if someone just attacks surfacers in the hub, it's breaking trade, we can't have that, penalized)

No one's reasonably arguing that monstrous PC's should be allowed to just waltz into cities fully warded and attack people (Like surfacers do, regularly to underdark districts and towns). I just find it absurd people are throwing around the idea of monsters getting hit with a kill script or just automated scripted damage to penalize them for daring to explore somewhere that isn't The very small realm that is the underdark, and bumping into the wrong places, and if people and suggest kill scripts for monsters wandering too close to towns, I'm going to suggest kill scripts for wanna be vigilante hero's stowing away into hostile territory to look for trouble. Guards attacking monsters for being near towns? Cool, Saltspar city guards should kill known paladins / chainbreakers waltzing around saltspar (Or you know, full on surface dwarves raiding parties attacking the city, PC's and guards included), guards in the trade post should kill the surface elves / wanna be black archers constantly stalking around the upper trading post.

Kill scripts used to be in place within one area of settlements on the Surface. This was also when the Underdark was a quarter of its size now. The point of them was to make players realize that guarded walls mean guarded walls. They only were within that range and only monster races had to worry about them.

[Hazard]

If we're talking about implementing kill scripts or automatic damage scripts for Monsters being where they aren't welcome (Which is a stupid idea in my opinion), then we should also create a place where non-monsters get the same treatment.

It's always amazing that people get grumpy when monstrous characters explore the world, and then act like they should never leave the underdark ever for any reason. Then turn around and get offended that they get the same treatment back when they decide to go wander the underdark and visit cities, and cry that it's a trade city they shouldn't be immediately being attacked or people being hostile, and that the hub shouldn't be a place that people break out in fights in.

Come on now. People are suggesting monsters shouldn't be walking into populated cities without any kind of attempt at disguise/concealment. No one is upset they are exploring the world.

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

To re-iterate - monsters will never belong in surface cities, but most* surface races can be evil/dangerous enough to survive Andunor.

*Elves/Dwarves would be the entirely rare exception, even as slaves.

I've literally been hunted down and attacked, and threatened repeatedly for the sole crime of existing on the Surface server and not sailing, I've been threatened with death on countless occasions for poking around in places far away from civilization like the Minmir hills meadows away from town exploring, and poking around at bits of forest.

It's not a simple matter of "Don't walk into cities"

I don't walk into cities, I actively avoid them but if my character name is remotely known by people, suddenly I always bump into someone randomly happening to be waltzing around the same place as I am and I'm forced to withdraw or get in a fight I'm not going to win.

Yet surfaces literally waltz around Greyport fully buffed murdering people in broad daylight (As daylight as it gets in greyport) and I've never heard anyone say or do anything about that.

The sides aren't balanced, I'm well aware of this, however I'd personally -like- to have an area that isn't just EVERYONE pushed square together in Andunor and told 'Don't leave because your a monster, or die." (Or in super fun cases, they say leave or die, you go to leave, and they attack you anyways while your leaving) by the setting and basically every other character I've ever bumped into.

Literally being on the surface is "Grounds to be PvP'd" even if someone decides to just one line and immediately attack you, their own excuse they need to attack a monsterous PC on the surface is just them being a monsterous PC on the surface. (But oh no, if someone just attacks surfacers in the hub, it's breaking trade, we can't have that, penalized)

No one's reasonably arguing that monstrous PC's should be allowed to just waltz into cities fully warded and attack people (Like surfacers do, regularly to underdark districts and towns). I just find it absurd people are throwing around the idea of monsters getting hit with a kill script or just automated scripted damage to penalize them for daring to explore somewhere that isn't The very small realm that is the underdark, and bumping into the wrong places, and if people and suggest kill scripts for monsters wandering too close to towns, I'm going to suggest kill scripts for wanna be vigilante hero's stowing away into hostile territory to look for trouble. Guards attacking monsters for being near towns? Cool, Saltspar city guards should kill known paladins / chainbreakers waltzing around saltspar (Or you know, full on surface dwarves raiding parties attacking the city, PC's and guards included), guards in the trade post should kill the surface elves / wanna be black archers constantly stalking around the upper trading post.

I see now that when you say humans/surfacers you mean actual surfacers. Paladins. Chainbreakers.

You know, I think I do agree on that point. Known 'surfacers' who are known to be allied with the enemies of Andunor/its inhabitants shouldn't be allowed.

I don't think someone just not being a monsterous race, or just not having the outcast tag is enough for a city like Andunor to keep them out. But if it's like, literally paladins and elves then yeah. No. The guards should absolutely be reacting to them.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Andunor tolerates far more of all sorts, because its a place which takes even the worst of humanity on board. They have their enemies, but they also keep slaves (which is a reason not to kill all surfacers). This is not in anyway comparable to, say, an orc/goblin/drow/ogre, walking about in the main plaza of Guldorand/Cordor.

A human ruling a district in Anundor, or holding any sort of politcal power at all? Yeah, I would say thats about on the same level of an ogre chilling out in Guldorand.

I think you're thinking of Udos, or Pit Town.
Andunor has always had humans in positions of political power. Some of the most powerful political figures of Andunor have been humans.

This isn't a case of "Well if monsters can't hang out in surface towns, then humans can't hang out down here!"
Yes. Humans can and monsters can't. Andunor is not a Monster Only settlement.
The surface and the Underdark are not equal. Evil is not as restrictive as 'good'.

There are certain sacrifices people agree to make when they choose to play a monsterous race in this setting.

That doesn't mean I don't want a totally evil surface settlement that allows anyone and anything. I'd love that. I think the server really needs something like that and is lacking it. But that's not my call.

I dream of the day there's some spooky fortress city, with undead/necromancer guards, and ogres and goblins in the market. A surface reflection of Andunor. That would be sweet.

Just because something has always been done a certain way does not make it the right way. If that was true, nothing in the world would ever change for the better. I want to preface what I am about to say with a nod to the fact that it's just a game, and it doesn't matter all that much, but the reality is that Anundor couldn't exist in a world that adhered to strict forgotten realms lore. A drow doesn't go about their business of raiding and enslaving the surface races only to say "nah you're cool because you have an outcast badge, in fact let's put you in charge of the whole city!" The truth is that the moment a human took any sort of position of power there, the closest drow city would be invading.

The concept of Anundor would have actually worked better as a city/state on the surface, where nar do well's run the joint and let all sorts of undesirables pass through and do their business. That doesn't mean that Anundor doesn't work for Arelith, because again it's just a game, but it is the key reason why I personally haven't played an underdark character. It's just too far from the lore of the setting for my tastes.

[Hazard]

The concept of Anundor would have actually worked better as a city/state on the surface, where nar do well's run the joint and let all sorts of undesirables pass through and do their business. That doesn't mean that Anundor doesn't work for Arelith, because again it's just a game, but it is the key reason why I personally haven't played an underdark character. It's just too far from the lore of the setting for my tastes.

On that I agree. A lot!

[Eira]

Obligatory reminder that Skullport, the city by which Andunor was strongly inspired and is still constantly used as something to point to for how the atmosphere of Andunor is supposed to be, has a higher population of humans than any one race and many of those humans have and can have positions of power.

So do, as a matter of fact, monsters that would be battle fodder in every drow city. Or food in other cities of monsters. Such as kobolds and goblins. And pretty much every monster in the Underdark.

The surface is very much not tolerant. That is expected.

Evil is usually tolerant only because Evil is apathetic unless something actively Benefits or actively Harms them. Selfishness. Survival. Cost and Reward.

The Underdark absolutely does allow people to claw their way to power. A drow would likely see a human who has managed to put a whole other district under their fist and think of ways to use their power and what they have done, rather than tear them down for the sake of tearing them down. There is trade. There is information. There is potential for blackmail, betraying them later, using them. Everything and more.

There have been cities of shield dwarves, not just duergar, rock gnomes, not just svirfneblin, in the Underdark. Drow cities in lore do not just lash out as opposing cities in all out attack for the hell of it, because they know they may not win and they have so much infighting that they cannot possibly unite enough to become an army. The only times they have been able to do so, are when Lolth specifically united them. They raid and they skirmish otherwise because they are guaranteed to win.

And the drow cities that aren't Lolthite and not a chaotic mess of infighting have other priorities than raiding the surface.

Andunor is overseen by the Hubmaster who cares only for gold and a triad of two Non-Traditional Houses (one of which is an amorphous hive mind and the other is heretical Infernalists) and representatives of Gracklestugh. What part of that comes off as a typical drow city?

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Obligatory reminder that Skullport, the city by which Andunor was strongly inspired and is still constantly used as something to point to for how the atmosphere of Andunor is supposed to be, has a higher population of humans than any one race and many of those humans have and can have positions of power.

Far be it from me to think I can get into a debate with you on lore, I know I would lose. But I always viewed skullport as the next step of the evolution of bandits in the sewers. When it has been inhabited at all, it's been mostly pirates since the netherese abandoned it, and was close enough to the surface where pirates could easily sail in and out of it. Some of those pirates happened to be monstrous races, but I'm fairly certain there wasn't a drow presence in any real number.

And if i am being honest, that sounds like the perfect bad guy city, and I would love to play a character in something like that. Give drow the Myon treatment with some tense connections to the city, and suddenly things start to make more sense.

I will reiterate however that its just a game, and I am not particularly bothered by Anundor. But as someone who likes to use both geographical and historical references when developing a backstory for my character, Anundor is not for me. For an easy example, I couldn't play a xeno-drow with the way anundor plays.

[Kuma]

But I always viewed skullport as the next step of the evolution of bandits in the sewers. When it has been inhabited at all, it's been mostly pirates since the netherese abandoned it, and was close enough to the surface where pirates could easily sail in and out of it. Some of those pirates happened to be monstrous races, but I'm fairly certain there wasn't a drow presence in any real number.

I've checked the linked sources; they're edition-relevant.

Skullport is inhabited by decadence, vice, and drow in considerable numbers. It is not just a convenient smuggling port for surface pirates to offload wares, though it is definitely that, but it has stores run by mummies, illithid taverns where they eat the brains of people who ingest various drugs and substances to "flavour" them, a bizarre magical police force run by floating skull heads, a beholder-run mafia, a Church of Eilistraee, the home of a very powerful drow house--

To say this is the natural extension of sewer bandits that happen to have a couple of lizardmen or goblins is patent nonsense.

A human hiding out in anundor because they are too vile for the surface, sure. A human ruling a district in Anundor, or holding any sort of politcal power at all? Yeah, I would say thats about on the same level of an ogre chilling out in Guldorand.

The devs have been cited multiple times for the better part of a decade that not only can humans exist in Andunor, but humans can, have, and should strive for and occasionally attain power in Andunor.

It has happened many, many times in the past, is supported by both general FR lore, and our own in-house interpretations of that lore. To suddenly have Andunor become so xenophobic as to prevent that now would be an unprecedented retcon, and very silly.

The thing to note is that humans, while sometimes forming a large population down there, are not always (rarely, even) a true 'bloc'. For a human - or anyone, really - to attain and maintain power in Andunor they must form alliances, trust, tenuous friendships, shady deals, underworld manipulation (y'know, roleplay!). It is fairly rare that any one individual or group has true solo power, their power is often predicated on the support of others. To say that a human having power in Andunor is 'as silly as an ogre in Guld' is somewhat demeaning not only to the players of humans in the UD, but also to every other player who has given them the time of day and RPed with them in meaningful ways. The system is set up, intentionally, for humans to act the way they act in the UD. It is not set up that way for ogres in Guldorand, and any efforts to do so would likely be met very strongly by other PCs, and probably by NPCs. Clearly one of these things is not like the other.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

But I always viewed skullport as the next step of the evolution of bandits in the sewers. When it has been inhabited at all, it's been mostly pirates since the netherese abandoned it, and was close enough to the surface where pirates could easily sail in and out of it. Some of those pirates happened to be monstrous races, but I'm fairly certain there wasn't a drow presence in any real number.

Interesting, it's still well less than 10% but certainly way more than I imagined, especially factoring an active house.

Skullport is inhabited by decadence, vice, and drow in considerable numbers. It is not just a convenient smuggling port for surface pirates to offload wares, though it is definitely that, but it has stores run by mummies, illithid taverns where they eat the brains of people who ingest various drugs and substances to "flavour" them, a bizarre magical police force run by floating skull heads, a beholder-run mafia, a Church of Eilistraee, the home of a very powerful drow house--

Nevermind the bit where I said it sounded like a cool setting.

To say that a human having power in Andunor is 'as silly as an ogre in Guld' is somewhat demeaning not only to the players of humans in the UD, but also to every other player who has given them the time of day and RPed with them in meaningful ways.

Anyone that feels demeaned by an opinion that they have to work to connect themselves to needs to reevaluate what they are doing with their lives. I personally would prefer if drow had their thing as opposed to being mushed in with the rest of the zoo from not only a lore perspective but a "in fairness..." perspective as well when it comes to game design, the second part being how it ties into this thread. Does that make my opinion the one opinion to rule them all? Nope. Does the fact that you disagree with my opinion make it a bad opinion? Sorry, but still nope.

[Kuma]

Anyone that feels demeaned by an opinion that they have to work to connect themselves to needs to reevaluate what they are doing with their lives.

please point out where i said this

Does the fact that you disagree with my opinion make it a bad opinion? Sorry, but still nope.

While true, some of what I've said isn't opinion but overall server policy!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

[Rei_Jin]

Yes, humans are allowed to live in the Underdark if outcasts or slaves. Outcasts can get citizenship, slaves cannot.

However, anyone who CAN live in the Underdark and get citizenship there as a default character option, cannot see the outcast tag.

This means that some of the monstrous folk of the Underdark (ie, those who cannot functionally live on the Surface) take exception to having Andunor seemingly flooded by non-monstrous races, who could live anywhere else and instead choose to come to Andunor to take housing and stores from others who have few other options. We literally don't know who the outcasts are, so there is a tendency by some to treat ALL non-monsters as surfacers until proven otherwise.

It's racism, yes, but it's also totally appropriate for an evil creature to be racist.

It's also not a setting breach for anyone in Andunor to try to bully someone else, regardless of their race, into becoming a slave. The strong thrive, the weak try to survive.

Again, totally appropriate for an evil creature.

Yes, many of the drow would love to have a drow only district.

I know the kobolds would love to have more kobold space.

Hobgoblins and goblins want their own space too.

Etc, etc.

This is part of the normal contest for space that occurs in all cities where there are limited resources, and it's also entirely appropriate to each race's background. Andunor forces them all together, and that causes the conflict.

This is INTENTIONAL.

If you don't want to compete for space, don't go to Andunor.

And regardless of whether humans are supposed to have significant numbers, positions of power, or whatever, roleplay means that players have agency and can choose how to engage and respond in all situations, and that has created the current situation in Andunor.

If the DMs have an issue with how Andunor is running, they'll address it. They recently did, regarding the edicts around slavery and such (and I welcome said actions).

If a player has an issue with it, it's up to them as to how they deal address it, using their own agency.

If, as a player, you believe there is a setting breach or a rules breach, please report it and let the DMs address it.