Druid Plant shape update feedback

[Kaymon24]

Hey. Wanted to give some feedback on a update that happened for plant shape druids.

Is it possible to keep the knockdown immunity for plant shape on characters that make it to level 28 druid? This way pure class druids won't feel forced or compelled to take monk or another multiclass for discipline?

Druids with 27/3 of monk fighter etc... still won't get KD even without the immunity. Epic skill focus discipline and the strength bonuses of the shape will make your discipline insanely high that KD won't happen. Giving KD immunity to plant shape of druids that hit level 28 allows people to make pure druids and motivates the players to make pure druids.

Overall I think it was a good idea to nerf plant shape druids KD immunity but this update will really not impact anyone that multi classed off druid. Just picturing in my mind having a pure classed plant shape druid getting KD when someone hits them just makes people not make pure druids and compels them to take the alternative 3 levels of a discipline based class option.

What does everyone else think on this?

[Hazard]

Yes, I think this hits pure 30 druids hardest as most of them don't have any disc and rely on plantshape for it.

But even without it, my druid is still sitting at atleast 74 ac .. with a lot of hp, so if KD'd you can get back up.
Not game breaking either.

The bigger concern is disarm working against plantshape.

I don't know. 30 Druid is in a weird place even before this nerf. It's a class that can steamroll PvE content solo, yet has almost no PvP viability except against very specific builds. So powerful in one aspect, and utterly useless in another.

[AstralUniverse]

Does disarm actually work against plant shape? I was under the impression that weapon is locked into the shape and cannot be disarmed or equipped/unequipped either. What gets disarmed exactly?

[Shadowy Reality]

Does disarm actually work against plant shape? I was under the impression that weapon is locked into the shape and cannot be disarmed or equipped/unequipped either. What gets disarmed exactly?

It used to be that Dragonshape was actually using a magic staff underneath the hood, not natural attacks. If this is the case, that's probably why Disarm works.

What I would like to know is how many items actually merge when one uses Plantshape? Is it all items, or just some? I am fairly sure not all properties are merged together, only the highest. So imagine you have all your gear with +2 Discipline, that's typically +16 discipline total, sometimes more. But for the merge it will come down to +2 only. This makes it so we just went from Plantshape users being immune to Knockdown to being basically always knocked down.

Even with non-crossclass, that's 33 base + 10 Epic Discipline + 23 Strength + 2 merged items, that's 67, which is not terrible considering they are Large, but not fantastic. With no Epic Discipline it starts being quite bad.

For cross-class Discipline without Epic Discipline you are likely always going down on any hit, which I don't think is fair. If we want Plantshaped druids (or any shaped druid) to be able to be more or less viable against typical melee classes they cannot be this susceptible to Knockdown.

I would suggest that pure druids get a bonus to Discipline equal to their level's max discipline - max cross classed discipline. This means they can invest in crossclassed Discipline and end up as if non-cross classed. Maybe access to Epic Discipline as a Druid bonus feat when pure. Their high Strength and Large size offsets the items not merging totally.

[AstralUniverse]

Does disarm actually work against plant shape? I was under the impression that weapon is locked into the shape and cannot be disarmed or equipped/unequipped either. What gets disarmed exactly?

It used to be that Dragonshape was actually using a magic staff underneath the hood, not natural attacks. If this is the case, that's probably why Disarm works.

What I would like to know is how many items actually merge when one uses Plantshape? Is it all items, or just some? I am fairly sure not all properties are merged together, only the highest. So imagine you have all your gear with +2 Discipline, that's typically +16 discipline total, sometimes more. But for the merge it will come down to +2 only. This makes it so we just went from Plantshape users being immune to Knockdown to being basically always knocked down.

Even with non-crossclass, that's 33 base + 10 Epic Discipline + 23 Strength + 2 merged items, that's 67, which is not terrible considering they are Large, but not fantastic. With no Epic Discipline it starts being quite bad.

For cross-class Discipline without Epic Discipline you are likely always going down on any hit, which I don't think is fair. If we want Plantshaped druids (or any shaped druid) to be able to be more or less viable against typical melee classes they cannot be this susceptible to Knockdown.

I would suggest that pure druids get a bonus to Discipline equal to their level's max discipline - max cross classed discipline. This means they can invest in crossclassed Discipline and end up as if non-cross classed. Maybe access to Epic Discipline as a Druid bonus feat when pure. Their high Strength and Large size offsets the items not merging totally.

So yeah it wears some sort of magic staff base weapon that you cannot equip or unequip so I still wonder how disarm interacts with it, since it's not really a magic staff IC that you grow out of your tree body I imagine so what is being disarmed, if anything... curious. afaik, disarm just doesnt work on these shape weapons...

as for items. Plant shape merges the stats of your gear slots for armor, helmet and shield. properties do not stack and the highest value is taken and the ac is converted into Deflection. So if you have.. say... ranger studded runic leather, then you get +6 deflection ac from your gear. You cannot get any shield ac from a shield but you can get +4 from empty offhand with parry.

[Eyeliner]

The monolith earth elemental still has knockdown immunity, right? So pure druids aren't completely without options.

FWIW I think it's possible to build a druid capable in PVP but you need to think outside the box a bit, like maxing wisdom and making use of spells before going straight to the big shapes and brute forcing it or even using those defensively instead of offensively. Still not top tier but there ought to be a tradeoff for pretty effortless PVE and very high survivability in PVP (as in, you may not win but if you want to escape you have more tools than most to do so)

[Hazard]

The monolith earth elemental still has knockdown immunity, right? So pure druids aren't completely without options.

FWIW I think it's possible to build a druid capable in PVP but you need to think outside the box a bit, like maxing wisdom and making use of spells before going straight to the big shapes and brute forcing it or even using those defensively instead of offensively. Still not top tier but there ought to be a tradeoff for pretty effortless PVE and very high survivability in PVP (as in, you may not win but if you want to escape you have more tools than most to do so)

It does, but it's not going to hold up in PvP. You won't get knocked down, but you're still going to get your Snuggybear kicked.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The monolith earth elemental still has knockdown immunity, right? So pure druids aren't completely without options.

FWIW I think it's possible to build a druid capable in PVP but you need to think outside the box a bit, like maxing wisdom and making use of spells before going straight to the big shapes and brute forcing it or even using those defensively instead of offensively. Still not top tier but there ought to be a tradeoff for pretty effortless PVE and very high survivability in PVP (as in, you may not win but if you want to escape you have more tools than most to do so)

It does, but it's not going to hold up in PvP. You won't get knocked down, but you're still going to get your Snuggybear kicked.

lots of classes/builds do not hold up in PvP without their discipline dip. 30 druid has been a staple before plantshape rework and is probably even better now with epic caster lvl bonuses applying to the elemental meteor summon (pure lvl 30) and the various buffs to animal companion that also scale better when level 30. I personally would not like to push every druid into plantshape. But I understand my opinion may not be what everyone else wants.

[Hazard]

The monolith earth elemental still has knockdown immunity, right? So pure druids aren't completely without options.

FWIW I think it's possible to build a druid capable in PVP but you need to think outside the box a bit, like maxing wisdom and making use of spells before going straight to the big shapes and brute forcing it or even using those defensively instead of offensively. Still not top tier but there ought to be a tradeoff for pretty effortless PVE and very high survivability in PVP (as in, you may not win but if you want to escape you have more tools than most to do so)

It does, but it's not going to hold up in PvP. You won't get knocked down, but you're still going to get your Snuggybear kicked.

lots of classes/builds do not hold up in PvP without their discipline dip. 30 druid has been a staple before plantshape rework and is probably even better now with epic caster lvl bonuses applying to the elemental meteor summon (pure lvl 30) and the various buffs to animal companion that also scale better when level 30. I personally would not like to push every druid into plantshape. But I understand my opinion may not be what everyone else wants.

Fair point.

[MRFTW]

I'd love to see this PvP capable druid build.

[Hazard]

I'd love to see this PvP capable druid build.

It's called Shaman.

[Eyeliner]

Step one is don't think shifting and punching is all you have to do because you got used to that in PVE.

[Watchful Glare]

The time of 30 Druid is over. The time of 27/3 has come.

[AstralUniverse]

27/3 was already the optimal setup.

Now it just doesnt get evasion, which is a pretty substantial hit to this build, given it's vulnerability to fire. It also needs to max Discipline which is 33 skill points tax (but the build swims in skill points and doesnt quite feel it anyway) and has pretty impressive discipline without gear (75 against medium creatures). It's also taxed by a feat in SF discipline in order to take Specialist but it doesnt have much of a feat problem either.

I think the loss of Evasion is really the only thing to talk about in this thread (because KD immunity is broken op and really had to go, seriously). The rest is pretty none relevant imo.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

27/3 was already the optimal setup.

Now it just doesnt get evasion, which is a pretty substantial hit to this build, given it's vulnerability to fire. It also needs to max Discipline which is 33 skill points tax (but the build swims in skill points and doesnt quite feel it anyway) and has pretty impressive discipline without gear (75 against medium creatures). It's also taxed by a feat in SF discipline in order to take Specialist but it doesnt have much of a feat problem either.

I think the loss of Evasion is really the only thing to talk about in this thread (because KD immunity is broken op and really had to go, seriously). The rest is pretty none relevant imo.

Speaking of loss of rogue 3 evasion option for plantshape, I think we are at an interesting set of options right now:

Now we can choose between:
30 cl mono
27 cl with discipline/tumble/umd/other bard dip
27 cl discipline/other(like spot) and bonus feat ranger dip
27 cl discipline and less skills but 2 bonus feats with fighter
or if you are thirsty for that evasion:
26 cl with disc/tumble/other (like spot) and evasion with 4 monk.

[AstralUniverse]

Not thirsty enough to drop 4 CL on a build oh so very dependent on buffs. You get +11 zoo stats from buffs. very dispel bait. Another reason why I think I fancy shifter more atm but shifter cant summon so it's a hard one. Either way, the 4 monk imo is the worst option. The best option for druid imo is specialist. That way you can keep all the epic feats of the old build and slap in esf discipline as bonus feat at the cost of also taking sf discipline pre-epic, which is a negligible cost for this setup and cannot gear discipline so it fits.