Counter Collaring

[LurkingShadow]

The UD can collar us surfacers, but alloww us to capture them and "force" them into community service to even the playing field. It is getting a bit silly they can just put a collar upon people and force things to happen. Not everyone on the surface is good aligned and it should be reasonable to be able to force them into a similar situation ICly if beaten up.

[The GrumpyCat]

The UD can collar us surfacers, but alloww us to capture them and "force" them into community service to even the playing field. It is getting a bit silly they can just put a collar upon people and force things to happen. Not everyone on the surface is good aligned and it should be reasonable to be able to force them into a similar situation ICly if beaten up.

There were slave clampers both in Sibiyad and Sencliff, however they were removed because it made both places seem too evil.

You can of course technically take your UD prisoner into the UD and use the clamper there, if you want?

[LurkingShadow]

The UD can collar us surfacers, but alloww us to capture them and "force" them into community service to even the playing field. It is getting a bit silly they can just put a collar upon people and force things to happen. Not everyone on the surface is good aligned and it should be reasonable to be able to force them into a similar situation ICly if beaten up.

There were slave clampers both in Sibiyad and Sencliff, however they were removed because it made both places seem too evil.

You can of course technically take your UD prisoner into the UD and use the clamper there, if you want?

It is not about "slaves". But the current system is one sided. UD have free reign to terrorize surfacers but they can do nothing in return. To imprison and put the to "community service" would be a way to punish them. I seen the current Helbrecht plot for example turn into a one sided show where it is impossible to fully ICly punish the evil side of the plot while they can do what they want with the surfacers.

This tilts the balance in the UDs favour. Let the surface take prisoners for a while as a IC punishment for dying or getting subdualed.

[The GrumpyCat]

This idea is being discussed right now actually, so something like this may occur soon.

Keep in mind though that slavery is an 'opt in' choice ooc. People who choose it do so because they think it'll be a fun thing to roleplay - and all power to them. I'm up for the surface having some more mechanical systems like this sure, but the harsher they are, the more 'opt in' needs to be.

[LurkingShadow]

This idea is being discussed right now actually, so something like this may occur soon.

Keep in mind though that slavery is an 'opt in' choice ooc. People who choose it do so because they think it'll be a fun thing to roleplay - and all power to them. I'm up for the surface having some more mechanical systems like this sure, but the harsher they are, the more 'opt in' needs to be.

Good to know, I just expect similar things for both sides. Many do play along with the UD, I expect the same premise if they expect people to be enslaved. I would not want to play a slave and be humiliated. So kudos to those that do.

[gryggrstrkssontreelover]

good to see there's discussion about going equal opportunities in giving players who like humiliating other players more options
i look forward to the work camps and pressganged drow slaves working in the fields of cordor, all in the name of the triad

[Shadowy Reality]

Is this really such a big problem?

No one can force any player to take any collar, UDers cannot force any player to take the collar. They may want it IG but the player can always refuse OOCly and opt for another resolution. In this sense the collar is more a mechanism to implement this agreement between two players.

What stops captured UDers from agreeing to your terms? If they don't want to do it OOCly, having this available for surfacers changes nothing. If they want to agree with your terms and go down this route what stops them from just acting as if they had a collar on them?

You say that Surfacers can do nothing and UDers are left to roam free, 'unpunished'. If they don't want to be punished and don't agree to a collar they will remain unpunished, regardless of mechanical support for this on the surface.

[LurkingShadow]

Is this really such a big problem?

No one can force any player to take any collar, UDers cannot force any player to take the collar. They may want it IG but the player can always refuse OOCly and opt for another resolution. In this sense the collar is more a mechanism to implement this agreement between two players.

What stops captured UDers from agreeing to your terms? If they don't want to do it OOCly, having this available for surfacers changes nothing. If they want to agree with your terms and go down this route what stops them from just acting as if they had a collar on them?

You say that Surfacers can do nothing and UDers are left to roam free, 'unpunished'. If they don't want to be punished and don't agree to a collar they will remain unpunished, regardless of mechanical support for this on the surface.

I seen it with my own eyes, most players accept it. Capture someone from the UDs corpse or subdual body? They just respawn or leave. The playing field is not even and Grumpy telling us this is in the planning shows that there is a need to even said playingfield.

It is to me, something that seems to be a unspoken deal, that surface players often accept the collar. But as mentioned, there is not equal treatment.

[Amateur Hour]

I agree that some kind of "counter collar" is needed, but I think the reason why is a little different.

Galahad Good Guy doesn't have many mechanically-backed options for dealing with Barry Bad Guy. Galahad can kill Barry (which ends RP between them for 48 hours), and if he's a settlement leader Galahad can exile or pariah Barry (which is also a mechanical RP block, keeping Barry away from the settlement by denying Barry access to the city areas or services). Yes, Barry can agree to do community service or something other roleplayed agreement that keeps the interaction going, but as I understand it the entire reason we have mechanical enslaved status on the server is that the "you chose this, you could escape at any time and therefore you're in league with the Evils" tendency way way, way worse when slavery was a roleplay-only thing to the point where it wasn't feasible for the DMs to keep playing whack-a-mole with bad RP.

While it's not perfect, mechanical obligations help force players to acknowledge that a character (not player, character) is under some genuine degree of force (whether justified or not is a completely separate issue), which means they are more likely to allow the antagonistic plot/interaction thread to continue without trying to end it.

[D4wN]

There were slave clampers both in Sibiyad and Sencliff, however they were removed because it made both places seem too evil.

You can of course technically take your UD prisoner into the UD and use the clamper there, if you want?

The Slave Clamper is still there in Sibayad. Not sure if he still works. There's also slaves in the bath house.

[Shadowy Reality]

Capture someone from the UDs corpse or subdual body? They just respawn or leave.

This is my point. They can still do this with whatever collar mechanic you introduce. The moment your character says, "You are beaten, you will all take this not-slave collar and atone." any player can send you a tell saying "Hey, I am not really interested in taking a collar" and at that point you have to offer an alternative, being either killing them, letting them go, or trying to hold them prisoner but without the collar.

[LurkingShadow]

Capture someone from the UDs corpse or subdual body? They just respawn or leave.

This is my point. They can still do this with whatever collar mechanic you introduce. The moment your character says, "You are beaten, you will all take this not-slave collar and atone." any player can send you a tell saying "Hey, I am not really interested in taking a collar" and at that point you have to offer an alternative, being either killing them, letting them go, or trying to hold them prisoner but without the collar.

Mechanically, the collar is a mechanic that encourages this. While surfacers can do nothing. I seen at times how someone gets captured and they just respawn. There is no encouraging "You should do this for the RPs sake" or danger to be captured as a UD character.

There should be some kind of "collar" for the UD on the surface to and it is in the pipeline now so that is good.

[Dr. B]

I actually like the idea of something similar to the slave system in surface settlements that is used to punish criminal. Maybe the tag could be "Convict." Given that it's not realistic to incarcerate a PC, and given that many crimes don't warrant death or exile, this seems like a nice alternative that could actually generate roleplay. The terms of release could involve collecting and donating a certain amount of resources to the community, with the settlement leaders being able to decide the kind of resource and the amount, e.g., "Donate 300 bags of sand." Things like adamantine and mithril wouldn't be options, but common resources like iron, coal, and sand would be.

The convict badge allows the PC who wears it to be summoned. It also provides information about the crime committed and the settlement that issued it when the PC is examined, eg., "This character wears a badge indicating that he was convicted of [murder] by [Cordor]." Again, there would be a list of preset crimes to choose from.

[LurkingShadow]

I actually like the idea of something similar to the slave system in surface settlements that is used to punish criminal. Maybe the tag could be "Convict." Given that it's not realistic to incarcerate a PC, and given that many crimes don't warrant death or exile, this seems like a nice alternative that could actually generate roleplay. The terms of release could involve collecting and donating a certain amount of resources to the community, with the settlement leaders being able to decide the kind of resource and the amount, e.g., "Donate 300 bags of sand." Things like adamantine and mithril wouldn't be options, but common resources like iron, coal, and sand would be.

The convict badge allows the PC who wears it to be summoned. It also provides information about the crime committed and the settlement that issued it when the PC is examined, eg., "This character wears a badge indicating that he was convicted of [murder] by [Cordor]." Again, there would be a list of preset crimes to choose from.

Something like that. To even the playing field. We see what the Arelith team got for ideas brewing!

[Definately Not A Mimic]

If there is a mechanical collar for UD characters then there will still have to be reenforced rules of then being allowed in settlements.
Not to be completely negative but I can absolutely see drow or goblin or kobold 'convicts' collared and walking Cordor streets going about their business of paying back their debt. Perfectly legitimate reason right, working off the crime? Yet how fast will that turn into cutebolds and snuggle goblins sitting around the fire. Or the 'look at my new pet' fire side talks. There is a reason it was changed from original days when they were in cities to being sent to live below.

[Skibbles]

I like this idea, and have long advocated for alternatives to conflict resolution that are not just murder murder murder. So yes, I like it.

However I don't like that this comes from a framing of 'fairness' as if slavery is some super commonly used punishment and thus the UD has a superior edge in all conflict. It isn't, and it doesn't.

To memory, even, I think this is the first thread I've ever seen to confidently assert the UD has any kind of superiority at all. From rules, to permanent tags, characters of the UD are, literally as per the rules, unable to assert much dominance anywhere but in their little corner of the UD. Numerous threads consistently highlight this over the years, which in my opinion, is by design and more or less accurate to the setting.

Cool idea. I just hope it can be managed and implemented from a better frame of why it should exist. The framing is important to me, because the reasons for its implementation could serve as a good jumping point for greater things in the future. The endless conflict between Surface and UD is not the right reason to do this.

[LurkingShadow]

I like this idea, and have long advocated for alternatives to conflict resolution that are not just murder murder murder. So yes, I like it.

However I don't like that this comes from a framing of 'fairness' as if slavery is some super commonly used punishment and thus the UD has a superior edge in all conflict. It isn't, and it doesn't.

To memory, even, I think this is the first thread I've ever seen to confidently assert the UD has any kind of superiority at all. From rules, to permanent tags, characters of the UD are, literally as per the rules, unable to assert much dominance anywhere but in their little corner of the UD. Numerous threads consistently highlight this over the years, which in my opinion, is by design and more or less accurate to the setting.

Cool idea. I just hope it can be managed and implemented from a better frame of why it should exist. The framing is important to me, because the reasons for its implementation could serve as a good jumping point for greater things in the future. The endless conflict between Surface and UD is not the right reason to do this.

Then perhaps the UD should show less aggression. I seen several times now that the UD can do things the surface cannot. It is common sense to bring out some kind of punishment beyond the very OOC mechanic of "48 hours of not showing up" which really is far from a punishment.

Im sure there is other ways to phrase it but currently I see a discrepancy in how things play out. It is impossible for the surface to punish while the UD can just collar someone which I seen happen every single time someone been "captured". They put a collar on them. Sometimes they manage to get them out quickly, others not. It is way to one sided.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Ok,

First, my slave used her collar to her own advantage and turned it against the city.

You impliment this system on the surface I expect team evil will turn it into their advantage so quickly that the system would become a big mess.

Secondly, I feel people have a weird idea on slavery.

1. Ooc concent, always ask it, you can even expect me to butt in if I see doubtfull concent.

2. Pvp? It can happen. Personally I use RPto catch future slaves.

3. Team evil has pride, when you gang up on them in almost direct pvp, they often get in a foul
   mood, You kill them, respawn is the risk, if they shrug of subdue, thats just bad rp tbh.

4. Sibayad slave system is fully working.

5. Nothing stops the surface from enslaving aside the player base its modern mindset.

[Shadowy Reality]

Then perhaps the UD should show less aggression. I seen several times now that the UD can do things the surface cannot.

You are making this suggestion in bad faith, you seem more interested in punishing other players than simply allow for other RP avenues, hence my earlier posts. I have told you before, you won't be able to punish anyone who doesn't want to play along. Nothing in this system prevents UDers from going up, doing what UDers do, and when you kill/subdue them just refuse to take the collar or whatever this is going to be called.

If you think certain players are not conducting themselves correctly, send a report to the DMs, a slave collar will not solve what's bothering you.

There are pros and boons to both sides. UDers have easier access to slaves, but they cannot enter Cordor. Surface characters can mostly wander the Underdark and even Andunor without much issue, so long as they don't cause much ruckus and conduct themsekves in a certain way. This is just one of many examples, there are plenty more differences.

I would say the community service mechanic is a more interesting mechanic and RP avenue for surface races rather than underdark races. As someone mentioned above, I don't want to see goblins working the Cordorian fields, or drow working the iron mines, it will just break immersion.

[Amateur Hour]

Then perhaps the UD should show less aggression. I seen several times now that the UD can do things the surface cannot.

You are making this suggestion in bad faith, you seem more interested in punishing other players than simply allow for other RP avenues, hence my earlier posts. I have told you before, you won't be able to punish anyone who doesn't want to play along. Nothing in this system prevents UDers from going up, doing what UDers do, and when you kill/subdue them just refuse to take the collar or whatever this is going to be called.

If you think certain players are not conducting themselves correctly, send a report to the DMs, a slave collar will not solve what's bothering you.

There are pros and boons to both sides. UDers have easier access to slaves, but they cannot enter Cordor. Surface characters can mostly wander the Underdark and even Andunor without much issue, so long as they don't cause much ruckus and conduct themsekves in a certain way. This is just one of many examples, there are plenty more differences.

I would say the community service mechanic is a more interesting mechanic and RP avenue for surface races rather than underdark races. As someone mentioned above, I don't want to see goblins working the Cordorian fields, or drow working the iron mines, it will just break immersion.

I'd agree on the immersion. Community service, convict status, etc. seems to be a perfect fit for non-monstrous races. It's "common knowledge" that monsters are beyond redemption - those hypothetical drow miners will just as soon collapse the tunnels on their overseers than actually do the work asked of them - but an animator or infernalist who doesn't have that seed of inherent evil in them could be convinced to see the error of their ways.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Then perhaps the UD should show less aggression. I seen several times now that the UD can do things the surface cannot.

You are making this suggestion in bad faith, you seem more interested in punishing other players than simply allow for other RP avenues, hence my earlier posts. I have told you before, you won't be able to punish anyone who doesn't want to play along. Nothing in this system prevents UDers from going up, doing what UDers do, and when you kill/subdue them just refuse to take the collar or whatever this is going to be called.

If you think certain players are not conducting themselves correctly, send a report to the DMs, a slave collar will not solve what's bothering you.

There are pros and boons to both sides. UDers have easier access to slaves, but they cannot enter Cordor. Surface characters can mostly wander the Underdark and even Andunor without much issue, so long as they don't cause much ruckus and conduct themsekves in a certain way. This is just one of many examples, there are plenty more differences.

I would say the community service mechanic is a more interesting mechanic and RP avenue for surface races rather than underdark races. As someone mentioned above, I don't want to see goblins working the Cordorian fields, or drow working the iron mines, it will just break immersion.

I'd totally support thay wizards goblin, kobold slave on surface tho..

[Xerah]

Things don't need to be perfectly balanced. Just because one location/group/etc has something doesn't mean all other places need to have them. One sided things are good.

I always think it's dangerous to look at any group and call it "us" whether it be races, classes, or, in this case, surfacers. People shouldn't really only be playing "elves" or "paladins" or "surfacers". It really gives you a biased view of the people who aren't that. You'll get much more empathy for what are challenges others are going through and then have less of a need to post passive aggressive suggestions.

[Mattamue]

The slavery system is the main reason I barely tell anyone I pay this game. It's super gross and I avoid it at all costs.

Otherwise agree there's no "they" have something and we don't. Also, if everything was homogeneous there wouldn't be any stories to tell.

[Rei_Jin]

1. Prisoner Collars exist, at least as an option given by the slave clampers. Never tried, but I assume it works as a temporary form of slavery.
2. Nothing is stopping Cordor from making an UDer a slave if they wanted to. Head to Sibiyad and clamp anyone you like
3. If my kobold got caught by a surfacer and told "become a slave", I'd totally consider it, just for the interesting RP it could develop.
4. Painting "The UD" as some kind of homogenous unit that is working together against "the Surface" is hilarious and short sighted. Most of the UD characters are just trying to live their life as little UD monsters, and couldn't give two hoots about the surface and its occupants. Same is true of most surface characters just trying to live their lives and not caring about the UD and its occupants. The raids and attacks from each side against the other results in disruption and conflict, so please don't paint it as a one sided aggression. PvP is a significant part of Arelith, and those who enjoy it or like to use it to drive a narrative will do so, and we all engage or not with that as we choose.

[LurkingShadow]

Then perhaps the UD should show less aggression. I seen several times now that the UD can do things the surface cannot.

You are making this suggestion in bad faith, you seem more interested in punishing other players than simply allow for other RP avenues, hence my earlier posts. I have told you before, you won't be able to punish anyone who doesn't want to play along. Nothing in this system prevents UDers from going up, doing what UDers do, and when you kill/subdue them just refuse to take the collar or whatever this is going to be called.

If you think certain players are not conducting themselves correctly, send a report to the DMs, a slave collar will not solve what's bothering you.

There are pros and boons to both sides. UDers have easier access to slaves, but they cannot enter Cordor. Surface characters can mostly wander the Underdark and even Andunor without much issue, so long as they don't cause much ruckus and conduct themsekves in a certain way. This is just one of many examples, there are plenty more differences.

I would say the community service mechanic is a more interesting mechanic and RP avenue for surface races rather than underdark races. As someone mentioned above, I don't want to see goblins working the Cordorian fields, or drow working the iron mines, it will just break immersion.

I do not agree with your assessment. And seeing the comment there is something in the making to equalize the playing field.