Thought on Drow

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Obviously, I get inspired by "thought on elves".

Though my concern with drow lies on their Lore and their current position.

Andunor is mechanically Freth faith supported, A design that has in the past either caused conflict or been completely ignored.

One year ago we had a few amazing houses; Dro'Vaalvaz, Delveldrin, Teken'tyl, Hel'vael, Rilyn'ervs

Several of those houses died, Rilyn'ervs is known as "the sleeping merchant house" and bless Johnathan for keeping the name Teken'tyl alive, Even though it's nothing near the grand madness it once was.

Currently, I like Zau'viir for being a solid house, They are on the same religious level and mind although I feel they are not as active as they were, Their presence is still felt.

But the rest feels a little desperate, We had Zau'rahel who basically mixed all religions together which IC raised a few concerns, That said they had some of the most amazing characters/players there, Xun'viir seemed to give up on drow and just fills the blanks with humans. (plz don't kill me Saslae)

I know Xun'viir has historically had a very hard recruitment process and props for that.

What my point is though, I feel that drow are in this weird lore situation where playing a drow currently in Andunor is not as inviting as it should be. Newly started houses without a mass ooc backing seem to fade out, Mistakes of houses often lead to their destruction or they end up a pariah as Thanor'Thal and for a while Renor'Orbben. Devil's Table currently has half the properties in non-drow hands than drow, While it's always been "the drow district".

So what are your thoughts?

Lore-wise, The current state and what keeps you or others playing a drow in the "traditional" sense?

[Azensor]

Things ebb and flow, its rare to have a house or any faction for that matter last past the two year mark.

Has for andunor being freth based..its always had two, heretical, faiths based in the city. Freth and claddath.

Though imo the odd spot is when someone rocks in with a house straight from menzo and tries to act like they are still in menzo,its why alot of houses dont really last least my opinion on it.

[Skibbles]

This is mostly a byproduct of the Underdark's setting, and its inhabitants, rather than drow specifically. For as long as I can remember it's always had this overall vibe where a mistake, a grudge, or a series of events can end up with quite a landslide of consequences in one form or another. This can affect anyone that lives in Andunor, so I'm not sure how to approach this from a lore perspective.

Right now I'd say that Andunor is probably in the most tolerant state I've ever seen it, give or take a few months or so in the past I am forgetting, but overall it is highly inviting to a lot of backgrounds, races, and religions that it used to be never be in the past.

Also Devil's Table isn't a drow district, definitely hasn't 'always' been, but to be fair it usually ends up with a good few of them living there and having the district powers so it can seem that way.

Though imo the odd spot is when someone rocks in with a house straight from menzo and tries to act like they are still in menzo,its why alot of houses dont really last least my opinion on it.

This is also the cause for frequent and fast rises and falls.

[Shadowy Reality]

If I had to guess, Drow population is not large enough for it to be anything else. Not all Drow players are interested in joining Houses. And not all Drow concepts fit existing Houses. This is why it is hard for a House to naturally form without any prior OOC coordination. You need a minimum number of players to get things going and other people interested.

I will also concur with the sentiment of sometimes small 'mistakes' or conflict generating actions being brutally and swiftly squashed. Maybe this has changed, but in the past people would complain Andunor was dull, that no conflict ever happened since it was so hard to distance yourself from your enemies. But when something did happen there was nothing short of an apocalypse, which would only end when a side was utterly destroyed.

I still recall what I think was In Sorrow We Trust's House (the name eludes me right now). It was honestly such a breath of fresh air in the UD at the time. They filled a more stereotypical drow angle that was missing at the time.

I was there with my little kobold when all the other Houses went for them. And while everything made perfect sense ICly, the House vanished soon after and I think that was a big loss to the UD in general, I still remember the matron's words at being confronted with her crimes: "What a sin, for one to have aspirations."

[Aren]

If I had to guess, Drow population is not large enough for it to be anything else. Not all Drow players are interested in joining Houses. And not all Drow concepts fit existing Houses. This is why it is hard for a House to naturally form without any prior OOC coordination. You need a minimum number of players to get things going and other people interested.

I will also concur with the sentiment of sometimes small 'mistakes' or conflict generating actions being brutally and swiftly squashed. Maybe this has changed, but in the past people would complain Andunor was dull, that no conflict ever happened since it was so hard to distance yourself from your enemies. But when something did happen there was nothing short of an apocalypse, which would only end when a side was utterly destroyed.

I still recall what I think was In Sorrow We Trust's House (the name eludes me right now). It was honestly such a breath of fresh air in the UD at the time. They filled a more stereotypical drow angle that was missing at the time.

I was there with my little kobold when all the other Houses went for them. And while everything made perfect sense ICly, the House vanished soon after and I think that was a big loss to the UD in general, I still remember the matron's words at being confronted with her crimes: "What a sin, for one to have aspirations."

House Drv’ymyr.

[Sincra]

Andunor is mechanically Freth faith supported, A design that has in the past either caused conflict or been completely ignored.

This is slightly off, while faith is supported, not all of Andunor supports it.
Claddath especially oppose Freth

The Hub - The hub master (Arguably the most powerful figure in Andunor)
The Devils Table - Freth
The Sharps - Claddath
The port district - The Duergar bank faction (I forget their name)

[Royal Blood]

I had a whole post but I didn't like it. I don't feel like it communicated what I wanted! Here's some quick points,

First, i've played a lot of drow for awhile I Feel like I understand drow culture on Arelith and broadly! SO that being said,

1: I don't think i've ever seen a house form IG naturally. There's a lot of reasons for this. I think pre-established houses are just easier to join.

2: I've tried to form a house naturally IG but I don't feel like I can compete. I'm 1 character and player trying to find enough motivation to entice like other players to join together. I can't compete with houses who have 4-5+ active players already.

3: Characters disappear so fast you can spend time recruiting and they'll be gone with the wind in two weeks!

4: Mechanically, it's very easy to be solo. What's the advantage of joining a house really? Almost nothing unless your character likes that other character or agrees with their agenda.

5: Limits on what factions can achieve. Mechanically, dungeons are on grind mode. Easy peasy. Role play wise? We're all held in check by the status quo. What you can actually do is limited. It's hard to motivate a faction to work towards something you can never achieve.

I believe for houses to become relevant players priorities need to be a tad different. I super enjoy the idea noble houses Surface wise or drow houses IG but it's very hard to unify a bunch of players behind any one particular banner for a variety of reasons.

Last note: I just want to encourage jaded players. I went through that stage semi recently. Just super uninspired and frustrated cause I became SUPER aware of the limits of the sandbox. But like, you as a player decides what has value. You decide that things have purpose. As players, we've got to decide that things have value and use what we got to tell neat stories! The stories value isn't lost if it's replaced 1 month later. Or the inspiration or emotion of a fixture invalid cause it could be stolen or destroyed later. Like there's value in the immediate roleplay and an eternity in the memories created from that.

[Peachoo]

Okay, so I'm going to be real here for a minute.

Drow were created during a time where um... 'wokeness' was not a thing. It was 1985 and frankly a lot of things that would have people cancelled in this day and age were 'acceptable' back then.

Traditional drow culture is..... weird and highly fetishized.

A good example of this is that the 'most powerful' female drow apparently wear next to basically nothing, if not nothing at all to 'show off their strength'.

Frankly, I find this... gross. I think it's really crappy that one of the very very few female run races is not only evil, but apparently being near-bare is some sort of symbol of power? It has a lot of negative connotations that I won't get into. Because I am tired.

And that's just one example. I feel I strongly don't need to go into the rest of why traditional drow culture is.. well not great.

On principle, if I play a traditional drow... they're going to be wearing clothes and armor and being a scary monster like they're supposed to be.

I personally just tend to ignore the um... gross sides of traditional drow lore and make it more pg-13 as much as I can.

As for mechanics...
I sort of miss drow having the SR they're supposed to have. I get why their SR was lowered to.. what is it, 12 now? But it sort of sucks.
It was insane to go up against in pvp and it actually made drow pcs scary back then. I think they used to have like 32 SR or something? It made drow actually something to be feared when you encounter them, besides your pc acting scared. The mechanics reinforced the setting back then. I sort of miss it. But again, I get why it was lowered.

The other thing too is that Arelith as a setting doesn't support traditional drow houses in lore. it used to with drow only cities. but really not anymore. Which, I think is a good thing personally, for the gross reasons mentioned above. The houses are most likely supposed to reflect houses in Skullport or other underdark cities with multiple races living in it. I get the want to do drow only areas but in reality.. that's not fun. A few have mentioned here already that there just isn't a big enough drow pc population and they're right. That was the biggest issue with Udos Droxen, among other things back then. There just weren't enough active players to justify drow only cities. I do not think we'll probably see a drow-only city again unless we have a large boost/influx of new players.

All in all, drow as a race are supposed to be one of the scariest races to come across in forgotten realms.. And the drow on arelith are just underwhelming. They aren't really 'scary' anymore due to the mechanic adjustments. Again, I get why it was done. Idk. I don't know if there is really a way to fix that. Some excellent roleplayers have managed to make the race a little scarier, but when they leave or those pcs are retired it goes back to being... lack luster.

[rosediode]

Okay, so I'm going to be real here for a minute.

Drow were created during a time where um... 'wokeness' was not a thing. It was 1985 and frankly a lot of things that would have people cancelled in this day and age were 'acceptable' back then.

Traditional drow culture is..... weird and highly fetishized.

A good example of this is that the 'most powerful' female drow apparently wear next to basically nothing, if not nothing at all to 'show off their strength'.

Frankly, I find this... gross. I think it's really crappy that one of the very very few female run races is not only evil, but apparently being near-bare is some sort of symbol of power? It has a lot of negative connotations that I won't get into. Because I am tired.

And that's just one example. I feel I strongly don't need to go into the rest of why traditional drow culture is.. well not great.

On principle, if I play a traditional drow... they're going to be wearing clothes and armor and being a scary monster like they're supposed to be.

I personally just tend to ignore the um... gross sides of traditional drow lore and make it more pg-13 as much as I can.

As for mechanics...
I sort of miss drow having the SR they're supposed to have. I get why their SR was lowered to.. what is it, 12 now? But it sort of sucks.
It was insane to go up against in pvp and it actually made drow pcs scary back then. I think they used to have like 32 SR or something? It made drow actually something to be feared when you encounter them, besides your pc acting scared. The mechanics reinforced the setting back then. I sort of miss it. But again, I get why it was lowered.

The other thing too is that Arelith as a setting doesn't support traditional drow houses in lore. it used to with drow only cities. but really not anymore. Which, I think is a good thing personally, for the gross reasons mentioned above. The houses are most likely supposed to reflect houses in Skullport or other underdark cities with multiple races living in it. I get the want to do drow only areas but in reality.. that's not fun. A few have mentioned here already that there just isn't a big enough drow pc population and they're right. That was the biggest issue with Udos Droxen, among other things back then. There just weren't enough active players to justify drow only cities. I do not think we'll probably see a drow-only city again unless we have a large boost/influx of new players.

All in all, drow as a race are supposed to be one of the scariest races to come across in forgotten realms.. And the drow on arelith are just underwhelming. They aren't really 'scary' anymore due to the mechanic adjustments. Again, I get why it was done. Idk. I don't know if there is really a way to fix that. Some excellent roleplayers have managed to make the race a little scarier, but when they leave or those pcs are retired it goes back to being... lack luster.

On what you touched on, I think many things revolving around drow in the setting are inherently not pg-13. A lot to do with drow culture is very, very adult. in lore I don't think there is any real way to address that without saying, okay, how do I plan to handlee these themes if they come up or are put upon me. Lots of us probably don't want to tackle that, and I think that is a huge reason why a lot of folks are less than willing to play the race.

I do however, think drow should be as mechanically viable as pretty much anything else, and at current mechanics and the lore currently point me to almost always picking an outcast human instead as to both receive the mechanical benefit and not to have to touch that more fraught subject.

[Eyeliner]

It's been a long time since I read them but weren't the Drizzt books pretty tame? Like basically YA fiction? I really don't think you have to go the distance with drow RP being explicit.

[Watchful Glare]

I've played drow for a long time since I arrived in Arelith before I even diversified and begun playing in other settlements, and I've yet to see this disturbing explicit RP or sexuality everyone speaks of.

The flirty women I meet usually come in different flavours: Human. Elf. Tiefling. Be it Surface or UD. In fact the more sexually aggressive ones I've met in Guldorand (This isn't a diss towards the settlement, no one can control where characters go.) and they happened to be elves and humans. In which, in that case, one of those cases being a drow is much less relevant.

I think this is something that plays in the theatre of the mind more so than actually in-game. Or the "I saw this X years ago" kind, because I'm sure it did at some point, I don't think people are liars, I just haven't seen it in years.

[rosediode]

It's been a long time since I read them but weren't the Drizzt books pretty tame? Like basically YA fiction? I really don't think you have to go the distance with drow RP being explicit.

The Drizzt books afik are pretty tame, the issue is that a lot of random 'Well in this issue of Dragon Magazine it says this (heinous thing)' or 'Here on Ed Greenwood's twitter is says ___.' That sort of gets lumped in with tackling Drow in general. You can definitely handle the situation in a normal SFW way, but you can also be told you're playing your character wrong or feel like you have to weed through a bunch of nonsense to get to lore that would impact your character. Sure, that can happen with any character, but I think that all can contribute to wanting to play a different race all together instead.

[Rei_Jin]

Arelith is inspired by Forgotten Realms Lore, and informed by it, but it's not controlled by it. Put simply, said lore doesn't work for a PW server that is PG 13+ in theme, and as has been pointed out by others in other locations, the entire drow race is actually not viable by design if it is played traditionally.

I don't know those behind Freth (in terms of staff), but I can tell you that from my experience the Freth faith is a far more functional base for Drow RP, and for long term story-telling. So for that reason, I personally am glad that changes were made to create Freth and give them such a solid footing in the Devil's Table.

As regards to factions? What you're talking about there HeyLadyofDecay, sort of applies to all factions across the server.

Almost all groups that form are created by OOC friends/associates who come up with a joint idea and band together to make it happen, but the majority of them won't survive three months, let alone six or more. There's loads of character churn, and it can be hard to make anything stick especially with how difficult it can be to get a good store or property for your faction, and heaven forbid you're trying to do these things while learning the server systems at the same time.

Factions like Xun'viir and Shadowclaw (for a different racial comparison) are rare, and they've certainly had their ups and downs. They should be seen as the exception, not the rule.

In my opinion, it's okay for a faction to come for a time and tell a story, but not last forever, because one of the things with stories is that they all eventually end. Some are short arcs, some are epics, but they do all eventually end.

What matters is that while they're around, they tell the best collaborative story they can, and add to the world around them in a positive way (regardless of whether they are antagonists or protagonists, or a bit of both).

In terms of the mechanics of drow, I would argue that they're mechanically quite strong, and whilst, yes, it would be nice to have SR 32 (or what they're supposed to have by 3.x setting, which is 11 + HD, meaning 41 at level 30), it would make them too strong. The change to give them a major and a minor gift was significant enough to put them in the top tier, along with elves IMO.

[Xerah]

Thread has been locked.

(this next bit is in reference to a post that has been deleted, not something that someone has said)

Please, consider what you're writing on the forums before responding. A man trying to explain what a woman should feel sexualized for isn't a cool thing to do. Let's keep the rights activist stuff off of these forums.