Potential Suggestion looking for feedback, Resource Island

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The intention

To create an area where people who really want to focus on pvp can do so in a contained fashion and in small numbers while still impacting the server as a whole.

What it is

An island found off the Archipelago that also has a large cave system that stretches all the way down into the underdark filled with random encounters designed to challenge level 30s that can lead to several different rewards, ranging from runic items, rare items, and settlement resources with a player reward attached (Ie, you beat the mega beast of beasterdome, the settlement you traveled from recieves 100 wood, 100 stone, and 100 iron, you each get 20 thousand gold).

The only way to get there is via an npc, that checks to see your party size. If its more than a certain number (say 4 or 5) it won't let you pass through. Once a group passes, no one else from that entry point can go in until that group returns or everyone from that group is dead. Raises/ressurections are disabled on the island, but you can carry your buddy back to raise them. The number of entry points would have to be determined in hopefully an equal fashion.

How I envision it playing out

Players who log in itching for pvp can group up, go to a place where if nothing happens at least they can hunt down some resources, and with any luck they will run into an equally matched group from the other side also looking for pvp. Bashing ensues.

There are definitely some kinks that need to get worked out just off the top of my head, and probably a few more I'm missing, but I didn't want to get into the weeds with this post in case everyone is thwpt on this idea.

The Hope

That folks who really like pvp above all else can find enjoyment in the game while slowing down the amount of pvp for everyone else, all while feeling like they are the heroes they long to be for their side thanks to the system giving them chances to provide resources for back home. Plus, they have the chance to kick some Snuggybear.

What it's not

The only solution currently needed, but it does I think at least answer the question "What do you do with all these people that have made pvp the central focus of how they play while slowing things down a little for everyone else".

A replacement to random encounter pvp, via dungeons or the wild. I do think we need to institute some anti-mob rules when it comes to these things (aka, running away and coming back with a giant posse), but i don't want to see this aspect of the game go at least personally.

A replacement for raids, though i do think that raids need more creativity behind it and should require the dm teams approval and a good bit of planning/purpose.

Final words

So, this is just a rough idea at this point, but the more I thought about it while at the park with my dog, the more it seemed like a good suggestion.

I would say feel free to let me know where you think I got it wrong, or if the whole idea is just awful and why, but I think you probably don't need an invitation to do that. So have at it.

[Inf]

I think it's a good idea.

Players all have their own interests - and when they overlap, things are great.

Funneling players that are interested in conflict to a place that's meant for it could alleviate a lot of the anger on the forums and in game. Players that don't enjoy that kind of storytelling will get less of it; players that do want it will get more of it.

[Alyxnia]

Funneling players that are interested in conflict to a place that's meant for it could alleviate a lot of the anger on the forums and in game. Players that don't enjoy that kind of storytelling will get less of it; players that do want it will get more of it.

This, so much this. As a former underdark raid boss, and current Team Good guy, I can say with certainty that there is no end to hurt feelings, reports, and all around unhappiness that springs up whenever PVP collides with people who dislike it. I can't rightly say how many reports the DMs receive because of raids/group PVP, but if it was less than several per day, I would be surprised.

Adding an outlet for the 'PVP Hounds' to go and do their thing, while also tying in to things like settlement mechanics, is a huge win for: The 'PVP Hounds' themselves because they know everyone there is on the same page regarding that sort of thing, the DM team from likely significantly reducing the amount of PVP reports and raid oversight necessary, and for the 'Social Roleplayers' who feel set upon every time PVP envelops them.

[Morgy]

My main concern is it might easily slip into a RP-lite/almost OOC arena-type area, where because it becomes labelled as a PvP-focused area, players neglect to focus on the RP. When players are jumping between this kind of zone and main Arelith easily, I suspect some of that behaviour might slip back onto the main server and be normalised.

Feels a bit too WoW battlegrounds to me, even though I understand how there may be a few benefits.

[Kuma]

My main concern is it might easily slip into a RP-lite/almost OOC arena-type area, where because it becomes labelled as a PvP-focused area, players neglect to focus on the RP. When players are jumping between this kind of zone and main Arelith easily, I suspect some of that behaviour might slip back onto the main server and be normalised.

Feels a bit too WoW battlegrounds to me, even though I understand how there may be a few benefits.

And vice-versa - the rest of the server will wind up with a hugbox that will, over time, develop a culture absolutely hostile to, well. Hostility.

"Conflict" is a buzzword that has polluted Arelith-related discourse for well over a decade but I dislike this idea at a root, cultural level as regards narratives as a whole.

What's weird is the idea is basically just "add more dungeons where people can fight each other for high rewards", and we already have those in the form of Any Time A Surface Party Does Maurs. I don't see how this attempts to tackle the root thesis laid out at the start of the post.

EDIT: Also if people are "looking to do PvP" as a rule then you've already lost. They aren't there to create meaningful narratives, they want to kill other players and inconvenience them. It's a twenty year old game, people aren't playing arena servers any more, if you genuinely wanted your fix of PvP you'd do it on literally any other game. If people are quite genuinely just cruising around looking for fights then that should be addressed by DMs not encouraged by building a ghetto for it to happen - it won't attract the kind of people with whom there is a problem, it'll attract people who think they can grind it for resources.

[30 RANGER FROM THE MOON]

When players are jumping between this kind of zone and main Arelith easily, I suspect some of that behaviour might slip back onto the main server and be normalised.

conversely, if PvPers who frequent the island bring it back with them, then that makes dealing with them all the easier, no?
if you have 'the kill people zone' and they act the same way outside of it, then clearly they're missing the point and doing it to intentionally aggravate people, which means administrative work is easier. instead of having to pore over logs and 'he said, she said, they dropped hostile after 1 line, ad nauseam', all they have to do is notice the trend

[Morgy]

When players are jumping between this kind of zone and main Arelith easily, I suspect some of that behaviour might slip back onto the main server and be normalised.

conversely, if PvPers who frequent the island bring it back with them, then that makes dealing with them all the easier, no?
if you have 'the kill people zone' and they act the same way outside of it, then clearly they're missing the point and doing it to intentionally aggravate people, which means administrative work is easier. instead of having to pore over logs and 'he said, she said, they dropped hostile after 1 line, ad nauseam', all they have to do is notice the trend

I get what you're saying, but there are already trends which the DMs can find easily.. the hard bit is getting people to report it happening, which will not change with a PvP-focused server/area.

[AstralUniverse]

Kuma and Morgy really got it spot on.

The thing is about arelith is that it caters for many playstyles but those playstyles were never mutually exclusive.

Areltih without heavy RPer loses all of it's charm, even for the people who play shallow and chill concepts very casually.
Arelith without pvp loses all of it's charm, even to the people who think they are far better off without it and think they suck at it.
You see where I'm going with this. Arelith caters for many playsytles but the culture is the sum of all of them as a whole, not just one or few of them.

And as Kuma said also, we already have the niche covered for PVPers. Any surface party that goes to pvp-and-chill in the UD dungeons, and vice versa, underdarkers going to the surface dungeons. So such an island doesnt really add anything particularly new, and in fact, perhaps it would make the people who are bad at pvp or dont like pvp feel excluded from a crap-ton of resources, resulting in them going to the island as well and pretty much everything stays the same, except we have added an island with crap ton of resources for.... no particular reason except as a generic expansion to the server.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Thanks guys for the feedback, especially inf who got it started. I went to bed afraid this post was going to wind up with crickets.

I just wanted to tackle some of the concerns so far, because they are definitely all things that I thought about, before slipping back into letting others talk.

1) This isn't meant to replace story driven conflict, or even story driven PvP situations. Those things are very important to Arelith, I agree. But it does account for varying degrees of human nature. Let me compare the rush from pvp to riding a gnarly roller coaster. Some people get off of it, and say wow that was fun, I will definitely ride this again when i come back to the amusement park next year. Others get off and love it so much they want to ride it again six times before they leave. It's the later personality type that this is for.

2) While it is true that the current dugeons offer the chance for something similar, there are two issues with simply relying on that.

A, its a lot rarer that encounters happen in the current system than what I laid out. So, if I'm a player who really wants to aggressively pursue pvp my best option ends up being attacking towns, which can be fun once in a blue but gets old really fast.

B, those situations are almost exclusively lopsided to one side or the other. In my time here, I've probably been in about 30 or so encounters like this, and not once has there been an evenly matched battle. By having a system that really focuses on groups of five (or some other similar number) level 30s finding another group of five level 30s to fight, you even things out. Maybe there is one or two people who think that's a bad idea, but I can't even begin to come up with a guess as to their reasoning.

3) The thought that by slowing down pvp on the rest of the server does not equate to erasing conflict for everyone else. For one, conflict does not have to involve pvp at all. Just ask Xerah, they will tell you all about how to achieve that. And secondly, I said this in the original post and again above in this thread, but i will say it one more time. The intent of this is not to erase pvp from the main server, just slow it down a good bit while at the same time giving folks who really just play the game for the pvp an outlet to do their thing.

4) The idea of giving level 30s who want to pvp a place to do that is not a new idea. Irongron himself has mentioned it a few times over the years in passing when things get out of hand. I've personally have put thought into how to achieve that without ostracizing a large portion of the playerbase for going on two years now, and I think if you read my OP thoroughly you will find I found a pretty good way to keep it all connected. At least one or two others seem to think that too, so maybe I am on to something for once.

5) And I promise the last, despite popular belief about what I think I actually will be one of the first people to form a team for this dungeon if it or something similar ever comes to fruition. While it's true that i think nwn pvp is a clunky, outdated, lag infested mess, and too much of it is ruining the server for people who don't want their entire in game time to center around it, I'm also a competitive person and can't wait to kick some Snuggybear on an even playing field. I also find the idea of training for the area and the rp around that to be compelling and potentially fun. And while that last part can and probably should be a big part of the way things are now, plans tend to fall to the wayside when you are outnumbered 2 to 1 or whatever.

[Inf]

And vice-versa - the rest of the server will wind up with a hugbox that will, over time, develop a culture absolutely hostile to, well. Hostility.

Agreed that this is the biggest potential problem. If there's a place "for" conflict, people will feel put upon when it exists anywhere else.

But this already happens.

It manifests in the form of reports, forum posts, hostile tells in game, and Discord messages. Sometimes you're just not interested in conflict. But you get it anyway, and it makes your day a little worse. The only difference is how often you're interested in it.

Think of it like matchmaking. An incentive to find like minded players to do the same thing together. Like Sailing, or writs or crafting.

EDIT: Also if people are "looking to do PvP" as a rule then you've already lost. They aren't there to create meaningful narratives, they want to kill other players and inconvenience them.

This is wrong.

PvP, conflict, whatever we call it - is a story people want to engage in. It is roleplay. There's a reason why such a glut of media involves literal battle between protagonist and antagonist. It's very compelling to me, and others, that this is a possibility for our characters.

If all people wanted to do was "kill people and waste their time" they would be playing those other games like you mentioned. What they want is to play a character like Aragorn who fights battles, leads armies, and is respected for their ability to do those things well.

But they can't (and don't want to) do that with players who fundamentally don't respect that concept. It's not fun for them, and it's not fun for the people who get pulled into that narrative.

Because of that I think an incentive or a system like Sailing that emphasizes conflict could funnel people that are interested in that together and make the server better for it.

[Toukaze]

I think the calling this is some PvP-Focused Island is doing a little disservice to the idea, instead of making it some Runescape Wilderness, it'd be a lot cooler if it were a Deep Wells-esque dungeon system, maybe with time-locked dungeons that a player/party can only do once per reset, or similar.

I think one idea that could be fun would be to have some kind of macguffin inside these dungeons that grant some kind of mechanical buff to the player's settlement, I don't know what kind of buffs, but nothing that would be anything other than simple QoL changes for everyone in the settlement, maybe it could take form of rare item merchants (spices, sailing items, etc) or simple things like piety boosts. If players could then fight for these Settlement Boons somehow, it becomes less of a mindless "lol we're fighting because PvP island" and more "we're fighting for our settlement's glory".

The idea that you could get a set amount of resources for your settlement is a great one IMO, I think besting some kind of boss that you may or may not have to fight another group over for resources works. Perhaps it could even be run as a Guild of sorts, where these bosses/monsters have specific tokens that are droppable on death like gold/fixtures and you can only get the prize by cashing in that token to a specific vendor.

I think the idea is great, just needs a little work to turn it from an MMO PvP system into something that could drive some narrative for the server as a whole.

[Sincra]

Not a fan.

If people want to avoid PvP entirely in favour of Social RP only there's other servers.
Arelith is, as a whole, about the culmination of all factors at play, segregation is not an improvement, it's a watering down.

While one may be tempted to look at how we can cater to everyone, we absolutely shouldn't.
This way lies madness, appeasing everyone is not possible, and I personally prefer a server where a mystery or "conflict" plays out on the island proper so it can have an impact on the development of the world and those in it.

All in all the idea reads like a way to make an Us Vs Them environment in the long run, so short term gains would be negligible in my mind.

On DM's as a factor:
If the DM's aren't meant to look at and review incoming reports as their primary role then I don't know what to say, the server is after all historically player centric, not DM story driven.

If the issue is poor etiquette on players parts then either the players in question need education, or a ban, which I would argue a ban if temporarily assigned is quite the education.

It's an often repeated factor of how busy the DM team is, but is actually something that's hard to see from an external perspective, and I also feel it may be a workflow issue if it's such a tedium as seems to be presented.
It's also drilled home how important it is for everyone to report every slight against them.
You can't really ask that everyone report everything and then get surprised when there's a pileup or a system flaw emerges, and especially this should not be used to form a response, that is in essence, diluting a setting feature to placate the DM's.

Tl;dr on the DM benefit argument:
Players don't know how busy DM's are and shouldn't try to conjecture ideas around this.
DM's workload is an internal issue and one where the workflow should be examined if it's going stagnant and high hours per staff member.

[Inf]

... I personally prefer a server where a mystery or "conflict" plays out on the island proper so it can have an impact on the development of the world and those in it.

I think Sailing does this well despite being disconnected from Arelith mainland.

It's entirely an add on, but it has hooks into the existing world to make it cohesive and feel like a part of it. You don't have to engage with Sailing at all; but even if you don't, there will be sailors in your settlement that run the settlement flagship. Their success or lack thereof will be talked about. You can sell them map pieces, etc. You can join their crew (or not).

The same could be done here. Just - instead of Sailing, it could be fighting in the Blood War to steal relics from devils/demons. Or adventuring into the Very Deepest Wells to recover Elven artifacts.

Settlements could sponsor groups of adventurers to go these areas. Other settlement sponsored groups can compete to gather the item, maybe they can steal it from another settlement. Settlements could even try to lure the most successful mercenaries over to their side to ensure their success in the adventure.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

All in all the idea reads like a way to make an Us Vs Them environment in the long run, so short term gains would be negligible in my mind.

If this is what you took from the idea then I screwed up somewhere in the wording. Not surprising, I do that a lot. But I firmly disagree with your conclusions. I think this will help mend the community that is already tearing apart over this, and perhaps even get people who are "ugh" about pvp to try it out on their own terms, instead of feeling like -right or wrong- it's being forced on them.

And again, it's not meant to stymie story driven conflict. I agree that it's important that that exists. Just for two easy examples to illustrate the difference:

"We are raiding cordor from anundor to get the stone the current chancellor has in a vault for a ritual to make us as powerful as Lloth herself".

Great, while being a silly idea it has purpose and story that involves people, even if it doesn't directly involve the victims that you might have to kill along the way.

"we are raiding cordor from Anundor because we are drow, and thats what drow do. Scary monsters and all that"

To me this is not only pointless, it threatens to become addictive. Without the need for a big idea, there is nothing stopping you from doing it the next day, and the day after, and the day after that. Having this atlernative pvp centered option, in whatever form it ends up taking if it ends up taking a form at all, allows players an outlet if they want to play this way.

And bonus, it will be against people who are there for the same reason. That's a win, right?

[chris a gogo]

Not a fan of the idea.
Not only does it reward the mentioned pointless PvP but it doesn't stop the raid culture as raids are not for resources, they are to target certain groups, this wouldn't be altered by making yet another limited system for a select few to go and do.
Sailing was mentioned I've not bothered with it as im yet to want to play a sailor, but from what ive seen and been told, it is either a tool to get the best stuff or a tool to enable PvP, with limited numbers so what you have suggested already in effect but requiring a skill point investment.

This hasn't stopped PvP in other area's I can't see this idea doing so either unless it was banned anywhere but there. and that would suck.

[Paint]

I'm pretty against drawing lines in the sand and saying 'x is for y,' for a given thing. More stuff for Arelith is always cool, and I was kind of hoping there'd be a deepwells expansion at some point, but hey.

But I don't want to PVP on some isolated island away from everyone else. I want to use PVP to create story, force narratives, and change how people interact with each other where you are at. Giving players somewhere else to battle it out won't alleviate the stresses that come from conflict rearing its head into Cordor or Bendir. Because critically, my mindset is that I -want- to bring conflict to where people are at. I -want- people to get involved and to make decisions. I want characters to change and evolve, and I want to be part of that process.

I get that things being out of your control can be frustrating, and it's one of those problems that Arelith's community has grappled with. I've been burnt before by PVP hounds that just won't quit, and by people who draw hard lines and refuse to budge. But I want to highlight something; These problems are not unique, nor particularly prevalent. Every community I've ever been a part of has had its share of bad interactions and people who engage with the systems given to them in a disingenuous, selfish, or abusive manner. There's no getting around it. And I feel like that's -really- what people are trying to stop when they talk about how exhausted they are with Arelith's PVP.

The problem is, if Arelith magically survived having no more PVP, those encounters would still happen. They wouldn't look the same, but the beats would be the same. It's just the risk you run by being social, and thankfully, Arelith's mod team seems to have a pulse on that, and knows when to tell people to knock it off if you ask them for help.

Before I get too far off track, the point is, I want to make stories with people in the spaces people inhabit on Arelith, and a PVP island's antithetical to that.

Otherwise, it's a pretty interesting concept.

[magistrasa]

I'm going to break the original idea down section by section, but I just want to preface this with a brief, simple statement for anyone who doesn't want to read the multi-paragraph monster I'm about to drop: This is, unambiguously, a bad idea. I'm not saying it simply doesn't appeal to me, I'm saying it's an ill-conceived "solution" to a misunderstanding of a perceived "problem" that would do literally nothing to improve the quality of the server, and would in all likelihood only denigrate the server's long-established standards of conduct. With that out in the open, I will now explain why.

The intention
To create an area where people who really want to focus on pvp can do so in a contained fashion and in small numbers while still impacting the server as a whole.

There's an unstated presumption here that this is somehow a good intention. It's entirely unclear why this is deemed as necessary. I'm going to extrapolate, based on the rest of the thread and some various responses, what the inspiration for this intention is, and briefly touch on why they are fundamentally misguided:

• The server experiences too much open-world PvP that is disruptive to narratives that do not benefit from it's encroachment, so "PvP Island" is the intended solution.

This perspective flatly fails to take personal accountability for your own experiences. If you really look at the scenarios that play out in-game, much of the PvP that the server experiences tends to be opt-in. Raids often come with advance warning that allow you to simply leave the settlement being targeted. Tense confrontations are often gradually built up into a breaking point, which you may at any time use your social adaptability to negotiate out of. Factions at risk of open conflict will usually know exactly what people or places to avoid in order to not be caught in a fight. The average player is rarely ever helpless when it comes to avoiding PvP. The reality of this perspective is simply that you don't want to be emasculated by the prospect of being faced with a fight, and choosing to away from it. In either case, "PvP Island" is not a solution. The complex web of motivations and narrative beats that lead to PvP will be unchanged. The intention solves nothing that you regard as a problem.

• There are players who inhabit the server that solely desire PvP and have little interest in Arelith beyond that avenue of gameplay, so "PvP Island" is designed to cater to those players.

Have you ever played another game in your life? Listen, I love the PvP experience - in Rainbow Six, or Spellbreak (rip), or ArcheAge, or WoW. Games that are actually fun to play. I don't doubt that there are people on Arelith who are acclimated and skilled in PvP, and so are unafraid of it and play their characters accordingly, but I will be frank here and say that absolutely no one who plays Neverwinter Nights is exclusively interested in its PvP scene. Arelith interests people because it is a roleplay server. Just because your personal experiences with certain people or groups appears to be solely oriented around PvP, it doesn't mean they're not primarily here because of the roleplay. I have personally built relationships, both in character and out of character, with some of the most notorious PvP-happy players on the server, and I have found that every single one of them finds absolutely no happiness at all through PvP - it's just a means to an end, and that end always boils down to narrative fulfillment. We need to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that this game is kind of janky and usually not very fun to play, even for the people who are very good at it. "PvP Island" doesn't cater to the RP-absent murderhobo demographic, because that demographic doesn't exist - it's a fiction players invent to disparage the people they dislike, or the people whose roleplay doesn't appeal to them.

• PvP is pointless because permadeath isn't real, so "PvP Island" adds stakes and a tangible reason to come into conflict.

PvP is never for PvP's sake - it's a narrative tool. If its outcome is regarded as "pointless," it simply means that tool is being misused. There are already plenty of ways in which PvP benefits its combatants, the primary avenues being: Securing an area for Us by driving away Them; Piracy on the open seas, contesting treasure and plundering cargo; Narrative legitimacy reinforced by mechanical demonstrations of might. These are all compelling reasons to engage in conflict, as demonstrated by the fact that it happens all the time. "PvP Island" does not do anything to add to this dynamic beyond further perpetuating future PvP by supplying its most active participants with the means to further build upon their supremacy.

So the whole idea is bad from the jump. But let's entertain it anyways. What exactly, beyond the premise, is being proposed here?

What it is

An island found off the Archipelago that also has a large cave system that stretches all the way down into the underdark filled with random encounters designed to challenge level 30s that can lead to several different rewards, ranging from runic items, rare items, and settlement resources with a player reward attached (Ie, you beat the mega beast of beasterdome, the settlement you traveled from recieves 100 wood, 100 stone, and 100 iron, you each get 20 thousand gold).

The only way to get there is via an npc, that checks to see your party size. If its more than a certain number (say 4 or 5) it won't let you pass through. Once a group passes, no one else from that entry point can go in until that group returns or everyone from that group is dead. Raises/ressurections are disabled on the island, but you can carry your buddy back to raise them. The number of entry points would have to be determined in hopefully an equal fashion.

A quick breakdown of the proposed layout for "PvP Island":

• It's Large.
• It's an island.
• Its encounters are designed to challenge level 30's.
• It can only be accessed via NPC.

All of these are bad ideas for fun and unique reasons! First, the fact that the island can't be accessible by sailing makes no sense from a logical standpoint. If it's an island, why can't I go and sail there? Obviously, there's a functional reason: You can pack as many people as you want onto a boat, but the island is intended to entertain small skirmishing parties. But, sure, whatever, let's suspend our disbelief for the sake of a contrived narrative convenience - that's the Arelith way, after all! Okay, but second, there's the fact that the island is described as being large and multi-layered. If you're designing an arena-type zone that stretches across a vast cluster of areas, you're setting yourself up for a situation wherein even the people who do want to fight each other can't find anyone else who's around to fight. But, hey, there's a third point - the mobs should be challenging enough to entertain the island's visitors with or without PvP! Except, what challenges a group of 5 Weaponmasters isn't going to be the same as a challenge to 5 Wizards, which isn't going to be the same as a challenge to 5 Warlocks. The difference between each of the classes is vast and, frankly, impossibly difficult to balance given the fact that it's constantly changing. Even if you design the area around present class dynamics, who's to say that they'll still be challenging a month from now? And once you know what to expect, is anything ever really going to be challenging ever again? Once the layout and the enemies have all been memorized, what's stopping this resource-rich zone from getting free-farmed?

Speaking of richness in resources, here's the proposed incentives to participate:

• Some rewards include runic items.
• Some rewards are paid directly to a settlement.
• Participants are paid flat gold sums.

So, basically, you're not getting anything different from what you might get through sailing. Which, as has been hinted at throughout the thread, is sort of already doing exactly what this "PvP Island" proposal is suggesting. The only thing that really sets this idea apart is that the premise explicitly bears PvP in mind, and it is theoretically more accessible due to being detached from any sail skill or ship rental requirements.

But, how accessible is it really? These are the mechanical limitations envisioned for the system:

• Party size limited to 4 or 5.
• Entry points are tied to settlements (?).
• Entry points are inaccessible until its designated party leaves or dies.
• This island is graceless and godforsaken, the dead are unable to be revived.
• "The number of entry points would have to be determined in hopefully an equal fashion."

That last point is painfully close to self-awareness, because the cold truth is that there is no way to distribute entry points in a fair manner. If they're meant to be tied to settlements to work with the idea that settlement resources can be earned on the island, then that means the Underdark will always be able to circle-grind the area whenever they want with 3 full parties of 4-5 randoms who all got together earlier at the Hub and decided to make bank. The surface is too spread out to easily match that kind of coordination. Unless, of course, they start coordinating via ooc channels - and if the rewards are really good enough, that's exactly what people will start to do.

How I envision it playing out

Players who log in itching for pvp can group up, go to a place where if nothing happens at least they can hunt down some resources, and with any luck they will run into an equally matched group from the other side also looking for pvp. Bashing ensues.

There are definitely some kinks that need to get worked out just off the top of my head, and probably a few more I'm missing, but I didn't want to get into the weeds with this post in case everyone is thwpt on this idea.

Groups from the Underdark who run into other groups from the Underdark would rarely actually try to kill each other - because this is still a roleplay server, and it makes no sense to kill your neighbor and collaborator, even if you're competing for the same resources. The same goes for the surface. A Cordorian company isn't going to cut down a party from Guldorand. They're not going to automatically see each other as enemies just because they came from different settlements. Sure, the island is a PvP Enabled Zone, but so what? The whole server is always a PvP Enabled Zone. The discouragement to make unnecessary enemies is still there, and there still needs to be incentive grounded in character motivation.

The Hope

That folks who really like pvp above all else can find enjoyment in the game while slowing down the amount of pvp for everyone else, all while feeling like they are the heroes they long to be for their side thanks to the system giving them chances to provide resources for back home. Plus, they have the chance to kick some Snuggybear.

This all ties into what I was talking about in response to "The Intention" - which is, to reiterate, completely misguided and not grounded in reality. Your hopes are based in a fictitious understanding of psychology and motivations that inspire PvP to begin with. The idea is doomed to be bad until it is formed from a mindset that aligns more closely to reality.

What it's not

The only solution currently needed, but it does I think at least answer the question "What do you do with all these people that have made pvp the central focus of how they play while slowing things down a little for everyone else".

A replacement to random encounter pvp, via dungeons or the wild. I do think we need to institute some anti-mob rules when it comes to these things (aka, running away and coming back with a giant posse), but i don't want to see this aspect of the game go at least personally.

A replacement for raids, though i do think that raids need more creativity behind it and should require the dm teams approval and a good bit of planning/purpose.

So, it sounds to me like what you really want is to segregate PvP - or perhaps just certain players that you are polite enough to not name but still subtly allude to - and shove it off somewhere that you don't have to be exposed to it. For the reasons thus far outlined, even this intention is failed by the proposal. Which makes a lot of sense - anyone who actually enjoys player driven conflict, PvP or no, could probably see very easily how this plan fails on first contact. You at least concede that you don't want PvP to be dispersed from every corner of the server, because you've been around long enough to understand its necessity as a narrative device and tool for conflict resolution, but you don't enjoy it and you're exhausted by its frequency. What you don't realize, in the process of this write-up, is that what happens on "PvP Island" is never going to just stay on "PvP Island." The blood spilt on the sands of its beaches will become the rising tide that sweeps across the server in a wave of self-righteous vengeance. Even in its most ideal execution, it's creating the grounds to breed a more personal animosity among strangers that will plague future interactions. The inevitable result of "PvP Island" is, well, more PvP across the entire server.

Final words

So, yes. The idea is bad. But, that's not entirely your fault. You probably haven't had a lot of fun PvP before. You probably haven't experienced PvP in other games that made you feel excited and energized. You don't really know what good PvP looks like. So, I'll admit it's impressive how close your idea gets to something that resembles those qualities. Your idea of a person or group signing up to join a private lobby of sorts is on the right track. Rewards and prestige and a sense of heroic triumph tied to one's success is hugely necessary for a positive PvP experience. And while an island definitely isn't the right venue for it, an actual arena just might.

Just make an arena queue.

Players sign up with an NPC and are summoned to the stage once they're matched with another contestant. 1v1 only, or at the very least to start with as an experiment. Have it hosted by a neutral NPC faction - maybe a test of strength by some Giants, or a tourney of the Fey courts, or some testing grounds for the Modron - who have constructed an arena from within a pocket plane into which various warriors, be they heroic or villainous, can submit their names and be called to fight in one-on-one skirmishes. The understanding on all parties' sides is that they're not fighting to the death - only to subdual - so no one has to feel bad for kicking their allies' teeth in. Optionally, if people want to keep their identities secret in the arena, they can be granted a temporary +200 Bluff unbreakable disguise so they can fight under an alias. Leaderboards might keep track of outstanding achievements, and give people something to strive for. Participation grants you a unique currency that you can exchange in a specialty shop for various unique items and cosmetics that maybe don't inherently give you an edge outside of the arena but are still a sign of prestige to show off to your friends. Ideally, even losing in the arena gives you some of that currency. You can only participate three times a day, or maybe once every so many hours, to prevent people from spamming the queue. I don't imagine the arena has spectators (other than maybe DMs) so it's a very low-stakes environment to lose in, which is a big reason why people don't like engaging in PvP to begin with. It could potentially be a great way for people to get their toes wet and expose themselves to the realities of how player conflict plays out as opposed to the standard PvE experience. With the right narrative framework and the right mechanics to make it accessible and attractive to even the most PvP-shy players, I think it could be something that turns out really special.

A major misunderstanding that doomed the original idea proposed is the premise that there isn't enough on the server worth fighting over. I believe strongly that this is not the case. There's so much worth fighting for that hardly anyone can bear the prospect of losing. But if you make loss a little more forgivable, you'll see more people willing to try something that they might have otherwise thought was frightening.

[Kuma]

EDIT: Also if people are "looking to do PvP" as a rule then you've already lost. They aren't there to create meaningful narratives, they want to kill other players and inconvenience them.

This is wrong.

[proceeds to write three paragraphs entirely agreeing with me]

youre making my point please we are on the same side dont shoot!! dont shoot!!!

My point was that these hypothetical players who would be drawn to such an island either aren't even here or should more properly be policed by DMs. They don't exist. I meant "Looking to do PvP" as a sort of be-all end-all of their playtime, NOT the invalidity of PvP as a narrative tool whatsoever.

Those players shouldn't be segregated and encouraged in a specific zone - instead,

[Xerah]

Over time, there would 100% be people who would complain about PVP in my area when you have a whole island dedicated to it. The number of people who would do this would grow and you’d get a terrible server culture out of the whole thing.

Someone probably already said this.

[Ork]

I like that this suggestion examines alternative goals beyond kbashing and default dancing on corpses. I think that is the right way to go. We have really really cool, underutilized and neglected mechanics already that if give a bit of love could create flashpoints of conflict driven not by a desire to amorphously "raid", but achieve meaningful goals that are in contention with other groups.

Examples of really cool mechanics that could be super awesome with some love:
• creating "out of balance" populations of mobs
• rituals
• deliveries (remove from writs and incentivize travel/conflict)
• assassinations
• capturing mobs w/ lasso
& more

I think a lot of these could be converted to non-direct goals that both sides of the alignment spectrum could engage in that gives either benefits or subtracts positives from the opposing side.

Imagine a scenario where performing a ritual in Heartwood spawned for a week or until counter ritual was performed a few zombie animals in the area. Or, dropping supplies to the talassians overwhelmed and spawned hostiles inside whatever we call old guldorand these days. Not direct conflict per say, but definite story starters.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Said a lot, just above.

First, let me say thanks for the feedback. There are a few points in there that would actually fall under the bit about "kinks that need to be worked out, but I don't want to get to into the weeds with this post", and would definitely need some serious conversation should this idea take off.

Second, and the unfortunate bit. You spent a lot of time setting up strawmen to knock down. It's understandable that you are no expert on how I think or what drives my opinions, I'm just some cyber bits across the internet as far as you are concerned. Maybe you are someone who says one thing and means another, and you are just projecting, but I can't say that for certain. I really don't know anything about you either, even if it would make sense on why you think I am doing that. But I always say what I mean and mean what I say to an annoying level. There is no secret agenda to what I say, I am way too comfortable in my own skin for that. I'm certainly not perfect, and I always welcome folks coming in to prove me wrong if they can when I am making a stand on something I believe whole heartedly which is one of the big reasons why I put this here instead of as just a suggestion right away. But I really do prefer it when folks argue against my actual points instead of making up their own to fight against.

Third, and finally, we could probably get into a long circle debate about whether or not there is an actual problem, or if people who say there is are just making it up in their heads. I could say that my ability to seperate who I am and who my characters are has lead me to playing with almost everyone on the server at one point or another (believe it or not, some of my favorite people on an ooc level are people who really like to pvp more than anything else, because they tend to have a compatible view of how the real world actually works), and therefore feel I have a pretty good understanding of not just how my circle of friends see things but how many others see things as well, but that wouldn't convince you either. So, let's just do this:

I cam only really repeat what I've stated many times before - that while it can certainly be enjoyable NwN (and indeed D&D) is not designed as a PvP fantasy battle game, and is instead geared towards small party vs monsters.

Just by having PvP on Arelith we've had to make hundreds, if not thousands of changes to core mechanics just to level the playing field. This comes at a high price.

If anything if I'd like to move away from this perception that PvP is the 'end game' of Arelith, especially mass PvP, which is where, despite all of our efforts, the game really breaks down.

I'm regard to encouraging players to move on. I think we've gone much too far in the other direction. Levelling is now so swift that many characters have a lifespan of just a few weeks on the server. My current has just turned 21, and I've had something like...3 brief interactions so far.

If you feel like this resembles what Arelith is, and everyone else is just imagining things, well...I guess that makes your perspective that nothing is wrong accurate in your own mind at least. If not, then you just might understand where I, and by default this suggestion, are coming from.

[PowerWord Rage]

After reading all these posts, i actually felt that the idea proposed on the standalone island with resources is a good direction with PVP elements within.
There're plenty of adjustment and ideas that can really surrounds this proposed direction and it depends on the developers and plenty of trial and errors perhaps, before launching it.

For example, you can possibly mark various zones (maps to avoid crowding more than 12-15 players in a single map.) within the Isle as settlement base property which has positive/negative effect when conquered. And, the battlezone can only be a group of maximum six players vs six players with, siege weapons, barricades etc.

There can possibly be more than one zone and such battles are held randomly. The battle isn't held daily but perhaps once per few day/week/months etc.
It's not a place that can be accessed easily but rather, a place that values RP and PVP together.
Opposing team will station on both sides whereby they may shout at each other before the battle begins, through RP.
There must be a purpose and it's for the settlement and/or something.
Gold is meaningless for fully-geared character, so are resources.
It's usually titles, fame and reputation that actually incites player to RP and possibly continue.

There could be other elements at play, including introducing NPC soldiers.
It might look more like war-based game. But, everything is up to your imagination on how you decide to introduce it.
It's a fantasy game after all. I'm quite leaning towards the concept but not towards the current idea at hand.

I believe that the proposed concept has it's merits. It does however, require plenty of works before it can even be realised.

Edit : This proposed concept is only possible due to the large player base that Arelith is enjoying. It is otherwise, impossible to achieve for any other servers at least, currently.

[magistrasa]

I really do prefer it when folks argue against my actual points instead of making up their own to fight against.

On second read through my own post, you're definitely right in that I spent a little too much time building a caricature of your presumed opinions and motivations. I do genuinely apologize for that, as it definitely distracted from the points I was trying to make. Not to mention it probably felt insulting for someone to make so many wild character judgments that aren't going to feel fair in a critique. However, I do ultimately believe that I directly spoke towards the merits of the idea itself, and stand by everything I said about how "PvP Island" as a concept would bring harm to the server and accomplish nothing meaningfully positive. The intentions that inspired the idea were entirely unclear in your original post, which is what led me down the path of extrapolating and assuming intentions beyond what had been said.

your perspective that nothing is wrong

I spend what is perhaps an unhealthy amount of time talking about what is wrong with the server. I believe that there is something deeply wrong with it. I just strongly disagree that the problem lies in a lack of reasons or locations for PvP to take place. As I said in my previous post, those already exist in abundance. "PvP Island" doesn't introduce anything fundamentally new and realistically could not be implemented in a way that is not easily exploitable. These aren't "kinks to be ironed out" - the concept is simply incompatible with the server. People don't believe in ways you hope they will, but in ways that make the most logical sense given what they want out of it. The point of going to PvP Island isn't to PvP, but to get rich quick. Nothing in your original concept appears to actually incentivise PvP, and it certainly doesn't appear to foster healthy relationships between the groups who would engage with each other. There's nothing to suggest that these things are even considerations.

And that's what I think the actual problem with Arelith is: People don't give enough consideration to the relationship one thing has with another, and so the relationships that are built on the server - whether constructed via roleplay or fostered through the server's design - are built on an unsteady foundation that warps the connections we each have to one another, or to the world, or to the mechanics of the server. People fall into unhealthy habits of interaction with one another. Narratives don't incorporate the setting. Classes are disconnected from lore by design. Discord enables people to experience the server within a vacuum of isolated safety. Any presented "solutions" that don't bear this in mind risk exacerbating the issues at play, which is exactly the trap I believe "PvP Island" falls into.

That's why I presented my counter-solution, which addresses what I believe to be the only problem that any "PvP Zone" could actually solve: Low-stakes exposure and familiarization with PvP for players who don't encounter many opportunities to hone that skill. The anxiety surrounding PvP is what leads to a lot of the animosity surrounding it, though obviously not the exclusive cause. The PvP hounds can introduce random players, some of whom they might ordinarily meet out in the world as enemies, to the principals of combat that will give them more confidence and perception of where they stand in the world - and it may just foster a sort of warrior's kinship with one another, where positive experiences in the arena lead to less personal frustration when they come to blows out in the wider world. It wouldn't just acclimate people to PvP, but it would acclimate people to losing in PvP. When the stakes are low and the losses aren't terribly significant, you'll see more people willing to take an L.

Obviously, that has its own kinks attached. What if, as a result of this "warrior's kinship," we see drow and elves start getting a little too chummy? What if resentment due to losses in the arena leads to scryganking parties to restore one's ego? Well, there's no good answer to that. Personally, I don't mind things like that so much, because in the best scenarios, those are legitimate avenues of roleplay that can build upon a story - and in the worst scenarios, they're reportable offenses that the DMs can readily act upon. Plus, the aforementioned unbreakable disguise boon can mitigate scenarios like that by concealing fighters' identities.

Edit (because I accidentally hit Submit instead of Preview):
Saying what you mean and meaning what you say is all well and good, but there just isn't enough said in the first place to understand the actual intention and motivation behind the original idea. Which makes it difficult to comment on in a way that builds towards its objective. How can I give constructive commentary when I don't know what goal we're all meant to be aiming towards? It relegates commenters to mostly only be able to chime in with, "This idea is good," or, "This idea is bad" - feedback on the broader concept, rather than in its proposed execution.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

We're good Magistrasa, if I got heated about people using fiery language, I would have to punch myself in the face every time I post.

Just to respond to some of your questions/points.

1) The overall goal is to give players a venue to pvp as often as possible if that's what they like to do, while still maintaining a connection to the rest of the server. It's also designed to make said pvp as fair as possible, by limiting team sizes to a set number so no one is ever outnumbered simply because one side had more of their friends on at that time or whatever. As I mentioned in this thread earlier, this is not a new idea, but the part about maintaining a connection to the server was always the tricky bit.

2) It was never meant to exile people who like to pvp to pvp island. This isn't a punishment, it's a gift, and assuming its done right a player who likes pvp can get into that once a week, 3 times a week, or even once per day. I compared these sort of players to folks who ride the roller coaster 6 times before leaving, because I understand that. I'm that guy. NwN pvp doesn't really do it for me personally, but I will draft magic the gathering for 12 hours straight on arena and my record at a poker table is 41 consecutive hours.

3) I kept a lot of my thoughts on the nuts and bolts behind the idea out of my initial post, simply because I didn't want the thread to get lost in the details. That's happened to me too many times on the forums, where someone picks up on some random thing i said that isn't really important to the initial idea, and that becomes the focus of the arguments against. And truthfully, the nuts and bolts don't matter if it's never going to be a thing, so my thinking was get the core idea out into the world then work out the details if people seem to like it.

So I hope that at least answered some of your questions. I'm still hesitant to get into the nuts and bolts at this point because I think the general idea needs to stew a bit more in folks minds before they decide if its good or not, but at least you should have a sense of what I see as the idea's intention.

Also, I'm sorry as well if my post read as defensive. I get triggered with strawmen in particular on these forums, simply because every time I try to get into a nuanced discussion about the pvp rules, how pvp is approached, what level of pvp is too much pvp, ect, someone is there telling me I just hate conflict and want to sit around watering flowers. And I can't even begin to tell you how wrong these folks actually are.

[Cthuletta]

I like this idea for a few reasons.

1) The idea of earning resources or goodies (like the above-mentioned Spice Merchant for a temporary period of time), is REALLY fun. That would be absolutely awesome, PvP island or no. I'd love to see this idea implemented even if this thought of it being for PvP specifically doesn't come to fruition.
2) It gives the opportunity for the oft-recommended and seemingly wanted smaller PvP groups to engage in something more balanced that won't turn into a lag fest.
3) I think it would add to the over-all story, as your settlement now has something cool and awesome, and people are going to talk about those brave adventurers that won it! Not to mention, new groups/factions could pop up from this, selecting plans and times to go and get those things for their people. The losing side would not only take a hit to the ego, but sit and plan and formulate of how to not lose next time... or perhaps, a personal vendetta against their enemy?

But, I also have mixed feelings, and have concerns for OTHER reasons.
1) If you wanna win, you're gonna take the hard hitters. I personally don't play many PvP builds, and I'm not very good at PvP, but I still ENJOY PvP. Naturally, nobody is gonna pick me to be on their team if they wanna win, which is understandable... but I still wanna go. I'm far from the only non-PvP builder that enjoys it anyway, and this might end up with the thought around it that you have to be 'good enough' to go along. You see this with sailing all the time, you want the best on your ship to add to the overall mechanical advantage, and it's very normal.
2) The inevitable wisp-invasion and following army march. 'So and so beat us at PvP Island, let's show them they can't mess with us.' and thus, several other players are waiting at the entrance to ambush the other side. That's going to cause more issues than they solve, and even if it's not in the spirit of poor sportsmanship, folks will absolutely take it that way. This happens with raiding parties or even folks moving around to do dungeons in their opposition's location. However, I wonder if disabling the ability the send wisps/illusions from within the island would deter this? Not sure.
3) Finally, and this is not really anyone's fault, but it WILL happen... 'Why are you PvPing here on the surface/UD? Just go to PvP island if you wanna fight so bad.' This will be a common line of thinking, as we can already see in this thread. It's not a particularly healthy thought process, in my opinion, given Arelith has much to offer for a variety of different play-styles and preferences... but this is an easy thought to come to. While I over-all like this idea myself, there are very few, if any, mechanical changes you can do that will change a person's opinion on someone who will PvP in say, the Arelith Forest, instead of on the island. Naturally, I don't think the goal is to erase PvP elsewhere, that is not only unrealistic but would remove a lot of fun from the overall server, but there will be those who see it as a 'This or that' situation, and I'm unsure how that would be addressed or negated.

This next bit is just a personal blurb given the topic of PvP in some form or another being a very popular conversation lately;
PvP overall is a difficult subject to truly speak about in group settings for a very specific reason- and that is that it is not only intensely factual when it comes to mechanics- but also incredibly opinion-driven on how it starts/ends. It's hard to say what another person is thinking when they attack first- or how the opposing side feels about it. A lot goes on behind the curtain before PvP begins (unless you are sparring in an arena), and assumptions are often made as we 'connect the dots' in our own mind of what's going on with limited information. This is just human nature, not a toxic trait.
People ENJOY PvP and want to do it, and while there are kinks to be worked out and probably a lengthy discussion if this were to be implemented, I think this island is a good idea for that alone since it'll deal with smaller numbers and give that outlet. I think the biggest hurdle is the natural perceptions that'll come from it, and how people react, both in character and out.