Dragon Disciple the (not so) prestigious

[Sinistar]

I'm just here to suggest a few changes for RDD. I've really been wanting to play one but the class requirements feel a bit restrictive for what you end up with. I understand that its supposed to be a roleplay heavy class. On paper (and according to the stats it gives you) it's an extremely powerful class. I think the requirement of having it be a prestige class is good and all. But I feel like it could be expanded and changed a tad to maybe add more flavor to the over all RP of the class.

• Move it to a greater reward BUT give it a base RPR requirement of 30 across the board, Kobold or not.

• Remove the +2 CON and +2 strength as a bit of a nerf for the reward tier change

• Add other spontaneous charisma casters to the list of available pre-requisites: Favored Soul, Warlock, Hexblade. Heck maybe Hemo/ Elementalist. Perhaps Paladin if they are worshipping a member of the Draconic Pantheon and have a Greater Oath.

These are just some things that were spitballed around it really feels underwhelming for as much effort as it takes to get a major reward for a prestige class.These changes would take a small bit of overall power out of the class, but it would make taking 2/3 of your available classes to spec into. Again, while I understand it's more about Role-playing, it just seems strange to me that a major reward can also just, get grabbed by someone playing Kobold(I mean with an RPR of 30, but still). In terms of builds and build variety it just feels stagnant and extraordinarily limiting.

[RedGiant]

Totally agree on Dragon Disciple needing some changes. I respectfully disagree with some of your proposed fixes.

1) I disagree with moving it to Greater and RPR locking it. Other threads have dealt adequately with the vagaries of DM appreciation. I think they should also remain relatively rare, lest the server look like Amia 2012. This will open the flood gates. I say leave it as Major without RPR lock.

2) As your point #2 was dependant on #1, see above. No nerfs to the class.

3) Totally agree with opening the class prerequisites. In fact, I might even suggest opening it all the way by requiring certain feats (Strong Soul leaps to mind), Skills (current lore requirement is fine), and/or a certain BAB (say +6 or more).

I think there are many classes that could tap into an aspect of Draconic existence. Why could a Barbarian not embody the Rage of a Red for example?

And, what I would add to your list:

4) Give Dragon Disciple some Caster synergy. It makes no sense for this not to be an archetype. Maybe at some 2/3 progression? I leave this to the experts. But much like unmodified Palemaster, the current iteration leads only to melee options. This is a sad waste of potential when emulating/channeling highly magical beings.

[Xerah]

RDD is not very good at the moment. I recently levelled out of it on a character (waste of an award) because it wasn't that great (and I hadn't really done much "dragon stuff" that it felt reasonable to leave). The bard 20/RDD 10 is close to being decent, but you can't give it a reasonable dispel protection (b/c you need 21 bard levels for +3 and 10 RDD only gives 5).

I could see Sorcerer getting some bonuses from RDD similar to how bard does, but I don't think it'll end up being any good for the same reason as above.

[Sinistar]

Totally agree on Dragon Disciple needing some changes. I respectfully disagree with some of your proposed fixes.

1) I disagree with moving it to Greater and RPR locking it. Other threads have dealt adequately with the vagaries of DM appreciation. I think they should also remain relatively rare, lest the server look like Amia 2012. This will open the flood gates. I say leave it as Major without RPR lock.

2) As your point #2 was dependant on #1, see above. No nerfs to the class.

3) Totally agree with opening the class prerequisites. In fact, I might even suggest opening it all the way by requiring certain feats (Strong Soul leaps to mind), Skills (current lore requirement is fine), and/or a certain BAB (say +6 or more).

I think there are many classes that could tap into an aspect of Draconic existence. Why could a Barbarian not embody the Rage of a Red for example?

And, what I would add to your list:

4) Give Dragon Disciple some Caster synergy. It makes no sense for this not to be an archetype. Maybe at some 2/3 progression? I leave this to the experts. But much like unmodified Palemaster, the current iteration leads only to melee options. This is a sad waste of potential when emulating/channeling highly magical beings.

At the end I just want some ideas out there, it's a cool class in theory. But at the end you have so many restrictions on a prestige class you had to sacrifice who knows how much time to even gain a reward for in the first place.

[definatelynothealbold]

The only reason it's an award Class is because it gives people wings.

It's not remotely tied to any amount of player power, it's only a reward thing because apparently people having dragon wings in exchange for putting 10+ levels into a terrible class is bad, and if people had dragon wings walking around everywhere, it'd make places look silly supposedly. (Though have you looked in Cordor? Lol the sheer amount of teiflings and half giants is insane)

Dragon Disciple is apparently suppose to be getting tweaks eventually, because there is an approved suggestion to buff the class, due to the fact as it stands it's a terrible class and people only play it for the RP at this point.

The suggestion was approved months ago, but no information come out on it being updated.

As it stands now, to nerf Dragon Disciple in any way would make it even more awful than it already is. Why would you even consider nerfing it? People often are like 'You get +8 strength which is crazy" with his class, but forget it's a 3/4th AB class, you can't take the classes without drawbacks until your generally in epics, and in the setting Arelith is in, everyone runs 40ish or higher strength, everyone can +12 their strength with no issues.

The breath weapons damage and DC is awful and it's on such a long cool down you rarely every get to use it, and every little tiny bit and bob of bonuses you get from the class could easily be gotten in others ways. It's a suboptimal class right now purely for RP purposes.

Not to mention the 3 Bard/Sorcerer level requirements, on top of the requiring 10 levels of RDD to actually get all the benefits, means you have 17 levels in total to put into another class, I can't think of many classes in Arelith's settings that are actually decent at 17 levels into them. (Or in many cases 16 levels, because bards are often chosen instead of sorcerers due to 3/4ths ab vs 1/2 ab, and most people get 4 levels of bard for skills)

[Sinistar]

As it stands now, to nerf Dragon Disciple in any way would make it even more awful than it already is. Why would you even consider nerfing it? People often are like 'You get +8 strength which is crazy" with his class, but forget it's a 3/4th AB class, you can't take the classes without drawbacks until your generally in epics, and in the setting Arelith is in, everyone runs 40ish or higher strength, everyone can +12 their strength with no issues.

I will admit the proposed nerf was sort of a Hail Mary to throw ideas out.

[RedGiant]

Well as not-bold pointed out...

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=40283

Seems like most of the good things I wanted are on the menu.

YAY!

[definatelynothealbold]

Just a matter of them being done. Which will be eventually. I suppose. The approval was about 8 months ago now, so maybe it's nearly done, maybe it's not been started on.

[Quidix]

Adding caster progression would indeed be great.

Beyond that, I wish the Wings were moved to 18/20.

[definatelynothealbold]

To move the wings to 18/20 would mean no one would basically ever get wings though?

Outside of Meme once per ten minute nuke dragon breathe builds, the class doesn't support past level 10 with anything but increased breathe weapon, and having an entire class built around a once per ten minute ability is impossible.

Between level 10 and 18 you get 1 AC and some increase in DC for your breathe weapon and some damage (Better hope no one has evasion)

That's just a silly request period. That's effectively removing the wings entirely from the class, or signaling if you have them you are a one trick pony that gets one thing and is hard countered by anyone with evasion.

[AstralUniverse]

We should, if anything, move the wings to an earlier level, since the people playing this class will get the wings, the level in which they get the wings only matters for build diversity and... maybe by accident open up appealing builds with 4 rdd, if it was moved to this level. Increasing build diversity without needing to increase mechanical power, and still over all seeing the same number of winged characters, is a win-win in my book.

[Inordinate]

Because making it easily accessible for characters to have wings didn't backfire before.

[AstralUniverse]

Because making it easily accessible for characters to have wings didn't backfire before.

Except it's not making it more or less accessible. Have you ever met someone with rdd token who didnt go for the wings? I havent. The access is the token part, which remains the same, and has even increased in rpr requirement for kobold at some point. Putting the wings in a lower/higher level doesnt really change much except allowing for builds with less rdd levels.

[definatelynothealbold]

I never heard anyone complain about races that get wings, or tails, or anything along those lines, I will never understand how RDD wings are somehow more offensive than any other extra limb that's all over the place on the server.

[Eyeliner]

I never heard anyone complain about races that get wings, or tails, or anything along those lines, I will never understand how RDD wings are somehow more offensive than any other extra limb that's all over the place on the server.

I think some complaining about RDDs, and certain other things, is going back 15+ years when this was a very different place, but people here have long memories and difficulty changing their minds.

[The GrumpyCat]

Because making it easily accessible for characters to have wings didn't backfire before.

Except it's not making it more or less accessible. Have you ever met someone with rdd token who didnt go for the wings? I havent. The access is the token part, which remains the same, and has even increased in rpr requirement for kobold at some point. Putting the wings in a lower/higher level doesnt really change much except allowing for builds with less rdd levels.

I'm not really sure that's entirely fair, given you just 'get wings' at level 10 RDD, whether you want to or not. I mean - I suppose you could choose not to take 10 levels, but that has a whole mechanical aspect so...

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong on this mark you - Wings are a big draw for sure - I'm just saying that in the interest of fairness, it's also kinda a wierd mechanical... thing, not just aestetic.

I did lower RDD's to a greater once, but honestly a lot of people took RDD right after and, yeah, I think the fact we started seeing more winged folk (this was before glaomings) made the team want to raise it right back up to a 5% again.

I personaly have no big issue with RDD's being moved to a greater, esp if behind a rpb wall. But that's just me.

[Rei_Jin]

Here's the test on whether folk want to take RDD for the wings, or for the stats.

Move the wings to level 11.

[PowerWord Rage]

Move RDD Wing to level 3.
This will actually balance out quite alot of deficency for this class.
Whether they will want to sacrifice stats for class levels which i believed that most will rather have more base class level than stats increment.

RDD Wing is the only proof (Visual which is very important) (RP-Wise) of the class.
I'm pretty sure that most do not actually care so much about the stats increment.
Tbh, the stats increment is overrated when there're so many good stuff from getting epic levels for the base class.

And you will start seeing 27 sorc / 3 RDD [ A legit Dragon Disciple with Sorcery ]

[AstralUniverse]

Here's the test on whether folk want to take RDD for the wings, or for the stats.

Move the wings to level 11.

They would just have less builds to play. If they are honed on having wings (which.... why spend major on this mechanically awkward class otherwise, honestly?) they will go for a 11+ build. Some might be put off entirely and not play the class, which might be grumpycat's point, I'm not sure.

[Power Word, Haste]

Moving RDD to Greater will go about as good as it did last time.

[definatelynothealbold]

Honestly, I do not understand why the RDD requires sorcerer or Bard levels.

In Lore Bards or Sorcerers that go through this path do so to heighten their abilities and their connection with Dragons, however.. RDD as a Class (Even in the base game) doesn't really have any synergy at all with Sorcerers or Bards.

I know it got approved that hopefully RDD's will have Synergy with the casting class they chose to unlock the class, but I still don't understand why a class that seems completely designed around empowering Melee combatants that rely on strength, has mandatory requirements from two classes that.. do not support Strength Melee fighters..

[Felgrand]

After reading this thread over the last few days it’s not about the wings or the style the class provides. Though the wings are cool and help it look nice. The point is that the class is under valued at a point that the abilities are worthless and the classes required to be able to get RDD don’t combine well or invalidate the purpose.

Bard RDD isn’t a good combo in general to get more use most people seem to go pally as well to just barely get a decent build to handle the game at any level.

Sorc RDD is done but managed poorly it seems because of the lack of spellcaster scaling that should be included with rdd. It’s set to come but who knows when.

RDD is a nice class that poses a lot of rp that can come with it especially now that we have so many giants. However Rdd lacks the ability to back up and justify any rp that can come out of it. It’s just not strong enough in any form to reason it to have a major award. If the whole reason is wings then perhaps make wings more common there’s plenty of races that have them.

[Preserver]

I know this may sound like making the situation more problematic than it is BUT...
I think all of this could be solved by a fundamental re-imagining of what the RDD is, starting from the mechanical standpoint. Narratively speaking, it is pretty clear what the RDD is: some semblance of Dragon person, for one reason or another.

Mechanically speaking though, I think it would be highly beneficial if the RDD was fundamentally rebuilt by deciding to give it a very specific mechanical identity that right now I cannot really spot (folks already pointed out how it doesn't really work well with Sorcerer). True, it may be even more work than do a couple of changes here and there, not to mention to spot interaction it may have with existing builds or other classes, but it would probably help in some measure.

[toftdal]

An alternative could be to frontload RDD, so the character basically starts at level 8 (class level 3) with all the attributes from RDD from the get-go, and then limit them to max level 25.

That way, you can play whatever you want for classes, but you'll be severely hampered at end-level (missing out of 5 HD/CL/class levels and at least two epic feats and an attribute point). Leveling will also be harder since you count as level 8 (plus whatever ECL you ahve on top) but with only 3 HD.

Narratively, it also avoids the "Oh, the transformation only started on this island.. because reasons" when you sprout wings after spending a month on the isle.

[AlonelyBard]

My own opinion, we could take some notes from the Dragonfire Adept as well, if we'd like to focus more on the breath weapon and the options that their invocations could give. Adept is more focused as a sort of monk/caster, but I think with an invocation similar to Warlock's heavy armor prof one, you could easily maintain the vibe of a knight with wings.