Lvl 1, -setstat, -setclass - Changes Feedback

[JingeKing]

Whilst being able to make applications is a nice QoL for players to have in order to adjust things and fix things when needed, it is not a necessity due to the -remake option.

However that option is not a viable option for reward characters due to the awards not being refunded.

And for players like myself who don't know what they're doing with NWN/Arelith system who make a character to then later find out what they're trying to achieve for their roleplay and gameplay of the character isn't possible due to what was originally taken (Unbeknownst to them) are now stuck with something that doesn't fit nor work.

If it's possible to either create some automation for a temporary award to be given when -remaking an award character that could be one fix to the issue? If the intent is to continue thus with what was announced and more so. If players decide to try and abuse this well, actions have consequences.

I definitely understand that there's a tax of workload with processes like these. We're all in this hobby together and IMO things should meld well and be fluid between all elements of staff and player-base alike. Processes and systems could be adjusted to enable an easier time for the whole of the base of the server. If Staff are in need of a helping hand for example put an olive branch post looking for volunteers, I'd be happy to help. We're all in this hobby together.

Yes this is a Roleplay server but one can't ignore mechanics of a game which effects role-play. Especially also when the mechanics of the game are ever changing in this awesomely custom server.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Surely it's not unreasonable for the system to expect you to have some basic awareness of how the mechanics work if you've played enough to have an award?

Plus, as long as you haven't levelled up too much -delete_character refunds the award, I believe.

Struggle to see the issue to address here? Big fan of the change.

[Rei_Jin]

The issue, for mine, is not so much "having an awareness of mechanics".

It is that mechanical rebalancing is a thing that happens regularly on Arelith.

For example; Hemomancers lost the ability to summon/create undead. Which they had.

And there was no roleplay given around why they lost that ability, as it was a mechanical rebalancing.

To expect that (a) people would not build around something a class would do, or (b) that when it is removed that requests to make changes at level 1 need to be roleplay driven when no roleplay is given for the removal of the ability, are both unfair.

[Choofed]

There is one thing I'd like to say on this that I absolutely beg the DM team consider.

In relation to the -setclass and -setstat features, please please please consider allowing people to use them if they meet the following criteria:

• They are new to the server, under 2 months

• The character is their main character, with the largest playtime

• The change isn't entirely radical in character concept shift

My experience with the -setclass and -setstat features where I've told people to do stuff mostly came from my time in the guard. The guard at the time was a new player friendly faction where we cultivated people who hadn't played before, and the number of times we had people show up after 'freeballing' a build and generalising their stats to the point where they were very unviable was many.

So I beg we keep the setstat and setclass available for genuinely new players under 2 months on their most playtimed character. If someone's made a battle cleric (A very popular option for new players) but discover it kinda sucks and they've executed it wrong because they had conceptions as a newbie from 5e that didn't translate to arelith they should get leniancy.

Those who were highly unoptimal often quit the server generally if they felt it. It's a player retention issue at that point.

Please let newbies, genuine fresh people to the server, still access this.

[legionetrangere]

There is one thing I'd like to say on this that I absolutely beg the DM team consider.

In relation to the -setclass and -setstat features, please please please consider allowing people to use them if they meet the following criteria:

• They are new to the server, under 2 months

• The character is their main character, with the largest playtime

• The change isn't entirely radical in character concept shift

My experience with the -setclass and -setstat features where I've told people to do stuff mostly came from my time in the guard. The guard at the time was a new player friendly faction where we cultivated people who hadn't played before, and the number of times we had people show up after 'freeballing' a build and generalising their stats to the point where they were very unviable was many.

So I beg we keep the setstat and setclass available for genuinely new players under 2 months on their most playtimed character. If someone's made a battle cleric (A very popular option for new players) but discover it kinda sucks and they've executed it wrong because they had conceptions as a newbie from 5e that didn't translate to arelith they should get leniancy.

Those who were highly unoptimal often quit the server generally if they felt it. It's a player retention issue at that point.

Please let newbies, genuine fresh people to the server, still access this.

This is kind what you get by being a new player. My first toons in arelith (and before PGCC) were a complete mess. Its not that much of a big deal to make bad decisions while leveling when you're a newbie. This is kind expected lol

[Spyre]

So, a bit of history.

Arelith often does large changes to mechanics and classes. The classes have a caveat that the world is a sandbox that is often changing and so things may not always stay the way they are. When I became an admin, and saw large sweeping changes, I personally offered to do class adjustment / stat adjustments to help people that were impacted. This was something that I did out of good will to the community and the amount of work was far too much for a single person to handle.

Kalo then came around and found a way to do a scripted solution that the DMs could assist with. This then took an already flooded queue and increased that by such a large rate - but also with requests that were outside the intended purpose of the feature. The intended feature was to help with large sweeping changes; however, requests were being submitted to just change characters because people got bored of the current iteration (which effectively became the issue of it just being a remake).

However, this is does not mean the features will not come back in the future. It needs to be re-evaluated in the current form - ideally if this can be put into the support page, it would save them all time. As it would be automated on login and not require the DMs to spend countless hours attempting to find players (which is difficult for them to do).

[Choofed]

This is kind what you get by being a new player. My first toons in arelith (and before PGCC) were a complete mess. Its not that much of a big deal to make bad decisions while leveling when you're a newbie. This is kind expected lol

Yeah it's expected but it's been a detriment to people staying with the game. Character Creation Stats, Level 1 Feats & level 1 class can't be fixed by relevel.

We need to remember these quality of life features made the game more enjoyable, and in the example I gave could ruin someone's experience realising all the effort they've put in will surmount to them being unviable and unable to do certain content.

Just saying "Haha you didn't know this when you joined, suck forever" isn't cool. Sadistic gameplay design is not cool.

So, a bit of history.

Arelith often does large changes to mechanics and classes. The classes have a caveat that the world is a sandbox that is often changing and so things may not always stay the way they are. When I became an admin, and saw large sweeping changes, I personally offered to do class adjustment / stat adjustments to help people that were impacted. This was something that I did out of good will to the community and the amount of work was far too much for a single person to handle.

Kalo then came around and found a way to do a scripted solution that the DMs could assist with. This then took an already flooded queue and increased that by such a large rate - but also with requests that were outside the intended purpose of the feature. The intended feature was to help with large sweeping changes; however, requests were being submitted to just change characters because people got bored of the current iteration (which effectively became the issue of it just being a remake).

However, this is does not mean the features will not come back in the future. It needs to be re-evaluated in the current form - ideally if this can be put into the support page, it would save them all time. As it would be automated on login and not require the DMs to spend countless hours attempting to find players (which is difficult for them to do).

The promise of features is great, and I appreciate you keeping open to re-evaluation.

I still strongly recommend you keep the avenue open at the moment for new players. We're going to miss potentially some really good players because they just had misconceptions from 5e in the mean time.

Please keep the pathway open for the people I outlined earlier, new players entirely fresh to the server who just had misconceptions on joining.

[Rei_Jin]

So, a bit of history.

Arelith often does large changes to mechanics and classes. The classes have a caveat that the world is a sandbox that is often changing and so things may not always stay the way they are. When I became an admin, and saw large sweeping changes, I personally offered to do class adjustment / stat adjustments to help people that were impacted. This was something that I did out of good will to the community and the amount of work was far too much for a single person to handle.

Kalo then came around and found a way to do a scripted solution that the DMs could assist with. This then took an already flooded queue and increased that by such a large rate - but also with requests that were outside the intended purpose of the feature. The intended feature was to help with large sweeping changes; however, requests were being submitted to just change characters because people got bored of the current iteration (which effectively became the issue of it just being a remake).

However, this is does not mean the features will not come back in the future. It needs to be re-evaluated in the current form - ideally if this can be put into the support page, it would save them all time. As it would be automated on login and not require the DMs to spend countless hours attempting to find players (which is difficult for them to do).

Thank you Malkalz.

If the initial announcement had been worded more like this, then I expect that there would have been less negativity and more understanding and acceptance.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

I'm all for -relevel going away too so I was glad to see it also mentioned in the announcementm I don't think it's well used, or represents good things about what the server is trying to achieve.

Being mechanically optimal is just not important on a roleplay server. My first character was a Cha 14 Paladin with Strong Soul and Cleave. I had a blast; it kept me coming back for thousands of hours even when I moved on to other characters.

Anecdotes =/= data of course, but I just don't get why this is so important to some people. One of the principally exciting things about both TTRPGs and Arelith is the lack of a save button and a built-in "choices matter" element. Easy rebuilds undermine that imo - ride out your poor choices. Storytelling isn't a single player exercise.

[Paint]

Firstly, I'm gonna start with saying Arelith has 100% made mechanics important on this, a roleplay server. I don't think it's so vitally important that you can't have fun and engage in both roleplay and the PVE aspects of the game if you make something that's suboptimal, but let's be clear:

PVP is narrative control. And on a roleplay server, what you do and how people perceive you affects the stories you make. There are just some stories and some narratives you don't get to participate in at all if your character sucks in PVP. There are some character concepts you just can't go with.

You don't get to be a shining hero and defender of the weak if you lose all the always. You get to be the loser. Who loses all the always. There's merit in RPing that, but if you're incapable of playing the alternative and you want to explore that, you uh can't if your character is built badly enough.

Luckily, in my experience, having a good build doesn't necessarily make you a PVP expert either. I've seen people with pretty good builds and sweaty numbers and beaten them with suboptimal builds just b/c they didn't have a lot of practical experience running that build and dealing w/ the downsides, or because they didn't have the right combat buffs/didn't know how to deal with common PVP tactics.

Now that my rant is over, I wanna take a look at the flipside of this coin, since I hinted at it already; Arelith is its own variety NWN PVP, and some people coming from other NWN servers might have an idea of how NWN PVP plays out, and they might be able to use common NWN PVP tactics to get ahead, but struggle to make a good build. A lot of people who come to Arelith seem to come fresh without much NWN experience at all, though. No amount of perfect building is going to make them great at PVP overnight. PVE content can be difficult to do alone, but most of it is geared to -not- do alone. So for characters who can't, I dunno, maybe roleplay and get a party?

I don't necessarily think that -setstat and -setclass, or the ability to relevel from 1 are going to fix a lot of the problems that have been brought up here. Really, what this does is protect a player's first character on Arelith, and my mentality is that your first character or two are going to suck. But even if you built your first character perfectly, if you suck at PVP, you're gonna keep sucking at PVP until you stop sucking at PVP. I went into Arelith completely blind when I first started playing, and my first character was a fighter 10 wizard 10. When I finally told this to someone who asked me what my build was, they damn near had an aneurism about it. Fairly, probably. I just rolled them and moved on when it became appropriate to do so.

If people are quitting Arelith after realizing their builds suck, that might be in part due to the current PVP culture we have. I was mocked pretty mercilessly for how I built my first couple of characters before I knew what I was doing, and I can see that being a pretty big motivator for people to leave. It sucks to have to start over. It sucks worse when you feel like you're holding your group back by -not- starting over.

When I had a character I really enjoyed playing, I just -remake_character'd. That character's Ester, and I've remade her twice now. First, to fix the horrible mess she was, and secondly, because she became mechanically unviable due to a shift in the meta. Releveling from 1-30 takes awhile, but it was an enjoyable experience both times and created a lot of interesting roleplay opportunities for me.

Award characters might be a different story, but honestly, I'm fine with it. Turnover rates of award characters are low enough that one of the ways that award characters end up retiring is by shifting mechanics making them less viable. A lot of the times, these shifts are minor; only changing values +/- about 2. But it's enough that people don't want to play those characters anymore. Personally, I don't see a problem with a bunch of odd award races populating Arelith, but them being awards at all suggests that award races shouldn't be the norm anyways.

TL;DR -- I just don't think it's a big deal to lose -setstat/-setclass, and I don't necessarily think it helps new players out all that much.

Anyways, characters are like sand mandalas or something idfk.

[RedGiant]

Here is my 2 cents...as usual.

Automate the "set" functions through the support page in whatever way seems reasonable to the staff. It is both too important to the player base to ditch completely and too unreasonable on the staff in its current form.

Keep "-relevel" but put it on a generous timer similar to the way awards function now. Relevels could still be given in the case of major mechanical changes, regardless of the timer. I think this option penalizes most forms of egregious use but preserves a function most of us need from time to time, without placing yet another undue burden on the staff. I think this idea also nicely enforces the roleplay atmosphere of the server, as even good role-players are sometimes tempted by expediency. Enforced wait periods encourage you to roleplay significant changes to your character.

[AstralUniverse]

Personally to me, changing lvl 1 factors to a point you're actually doing another character entirely, had always felt like some sort of an hallucination. Like.... I can just do that? . . . honestly surprised we kept it for as long as we did.

About relevel... putting it on some sort of timer would suck for me personally only for the reason that when I take 29 lvls on a row I always always screw things up once and then get it right the second time. I absolutely hate having to relevel. It's a lot of lvls to take on a row. That said, relevel has also been some kind of hallucination I'm surprised we still got around for this long and every day I basically expect it to be gone tomorrow so I wouldnt be shocked about that either.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

My only concern is if there will be sweeping class changes sometime in the future. If this happens will classes impacted by it have level 1 changes available to them?

[legionetrangere]

About relevel... putting it on some sort of timer would suck for me personally only for the reason that when I take 29 lvls on a row I always always screw things up once and then get it right the second time. I absolutely hate having to relevel. It's a lot of lvls to take on a row.

If PGCC wasn't a thing, I would whole heartedly agree with this because i suck at builds. But, PGCC does exists, and its super easy to get your toon from the main server to there (just use -transfer). The very existence of PGCC invalidates this argument.

[JingeKing]

In my opinion, changing lvl 1 stuff doesn't mean you're making a whole new character. As a character is formed via the roleplay. The Lvl stuff is more the mechanical side of what your character is able to do as they've stepped forth onto their journey from a normal common person to an 'Adventurer'!

Some roleplay viewpoints can be enjoyable like changing the training or allowing things to change dependent to what outside influences are happening to your character via the roleplay you've been apart of.
(I for one like to do this. I enjoy going with the flow of whats happening around me and allow my character to be malleable dependent on what role-play is affecting my character).

For the -relevel, I feel that it would be such a hard loss for many.
Not everyone is able to sit on PGCC to test things to see what they like/how things work, some are more practical learners and need to see and feel these things through use.
It also seems to ensure people to be extremely more careful with their builds, setting into stone a more of a standard for what people should take and not take.
Also, how many players have level'd quickly or on autopilot and make easy and stupid mistakes of missing a feat or X amount of skill points?
From what I've heard at-least, there's an alert system (like there is with gear muling for example or typing a previous characters name that you've rolled) that will ping a player if they've -releveled too many times to the DMs. IF that is the case then it should enable for less abuse by a minor group, of such a useful feature which is beneficial for the majority of normal players.

For the stats/classes etc, my viewpoint is dependent on the situations and explanations for why someone is asking to change this or that or the other. Obviously the workload can be quite major which means if people are able to -remake then do so of course.
Not everyone can and I hope something for -awards is able to be sorted.

Perhaps in the interim apps for -awards and characters effected by class/other mechanical updates/changes could still be allowed? Just a minor thought.

[Bees in Space]

Firstly, I'm gonna start with saying Arelith has 100% made mechanics important on this, a roleplay server. I don't think it's so vitally important that you can't have fun and engage in both roleplay and the PVE aspects of the game if you make something that's suboptimal, but let's be clear:

PVP is narrative control. And on a roleplay server, what you do and how people perceive you affects the stories you make. There are just some stories and some narratives you don't get to participate in at all if your character sucks in PVP. There are some character concepts you just can't go with.

You don't get to be a shining hero and defender of the weak if you lose all the always. You get to be the loser. Who loses all the always. There's merit in RPing that, but if you're incapable of playing the alternative and you want to explore that, you uh can't if your character is built badly enough.

Agree with this 100%. Having a mechanically weak character can make for an interesting story in a tabletop setting with a dedicated DM, but in the context of Arelith all it does it take options away from you.

[PowerWord Rage]

I think, -setstat and -setclass is kinda overated here.

Both option should in fact, only be made available on request IF there're any major changes/overhaul to a class and only that though.
These two options do not actually falls under the scope of consideration on whether a player is mechanically strong or weak if that described above did not happen.

The only reason behind my rationale is because there're optimal builds available everywhere and there're even relevel options made available. And, towards new player, everyone has been new once, I too have my fair share of hurdles and during then, there wasn't even a relevel option. Additionally, there're also build spreadsheets made available everywhere in the forum or discord.

Being mechanically strong by for example, +1 AB or +2AC or 60 HP isn't going to determine the outcome of most PVP fights. While every bits do count, it's usually reactions that are more important in this aspect.

PVE is easier because of awareness. We all know how NPCs react and even their AB and AC if you had fight them everytime
Likewise, PVP is actually more about awareness than mechanics despite what others may say.

Of course, if you decides to play for example, a Rogue. You shouldn't expect to beat a barbarian in a frontal assault.
Likewise, if you're a bard, you don't expect to win most fights.
And if you're a Cleric, you might have some troubles, facing Spellswords
Etc etc

[In Sorrow We Trust]

then there's people like me, who sometimes relevel just because my spell radial menu got jumbled up

[Eyeliner]

I never expected -relevel at will to last as long as it did, but please let us continue to do it once in a while. I get that it's abusable but it's such a huge quality of life boost it would be a shame to lose it entirely. I mean it has to be good for the devs in a way so they can mess around with classes and let people adjust accordingly. There are also some new classes like dirgesinger, invoker and vigilante that you need to actually play to get what they do (beyond just building on the PGCC and beating up a few underpowered enemies) and being able to adjust abilities that weren't what you expected after living with them is really helpful.

What if every CD key just got a relevel token every couple of months and you could bank two or three max. There might be a little cheeseball behavior but most of us would use it in good faith.

[-XXX-]

IMO the upside of -relevel by granting players the ability to fix their toons at will on their own in the wake major sweeping mechanical changes overweighs any downsides.

-setstat and -setclass I don't like as much TBH, because a class for me represents a huge part of a character's identity. Seeing then characters go from warlock to druid to cleric to WM doesn't sit that well with me.

But yeah, I guess where the line should actually drawn is entirely a matter of opinion here.

[Coolguy McMagic]

So, a bit of history.

Arelith often does large changes to mechanics and classes. The classes have a caveat that the world is a sandbox that is often changing and so things may not always stay the way they are. When I became an admin, and saw large sweeping changes, I personally offered to do class adjustment / stat adjustments to help people that were impacted. This was something that I did out of good will to the community and the amount of work was far too much for a single person to handle.

Kalo then came around and found a way to do a scripted solution that the DMs could assist with. This then took an already flooded queue and increased that by such a large rate - but also with requests that were outside the intended purpose of the feature. The intended feature was to help with large sweeping changes; however, requests were being submitted to just change characters because people got bored of the current iteration (which effectively became the issue of it just being a remake).

However, this is does not mean the features will not come back in the future. It needs to be re-evaluated in the current form - ideally if this can be put into the support page, it would save them all time. As it would be automated on login and not require the DMs to spend countless hours attempting to find players (which is difficult for them to do).

Just to add to what Rei_Jin said, that's completely reasonable and I understand that the work associated with this became overwhelming. And I don't think DMs should have to change someone's level 1 changes for frivolous reasons like getting bored with a build or something of the sort either.

I do have pretty strong feelings about the wording of this announcement, however.
The argument of "This is an RP server" is just poor, I'm sorry. I'm not going to go over the entire Stormwind Fallacy bit, we all know it at this point, but even besides, building your character poorly is not yielding more interesting RP avenues or anything, it just means you can't clear content, can't make gold, can't advance your character as well as other players do. Making your first mundane character on the build without enough INT to get expertise doesn't open up more RP - it just means your character sucks. What do you gain from being unable to do your writs? Nothing, there's nothing interesting about it and to say otherwise is either dishonest or just plain wrong. Arelith does not have any substantial mechanics that foster RP for poor build choices, they are just that - poor build choices.

So please, in the future, just say "we dont have the resources to do this." Don't say "we don't have the resources and here is why that's a good thing, actually" and then give us some excuse. It does not go over well.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

If we're commenting on tone and presentation, it feels only appropriate to say that your last paragraph comes off to me as rude and entitled towards people who put hours into providing us all free entertainment. As long as they're not throwing insults about they can make server updates however they damn well please, and there was nothing remotely uncivil about this one anyway.

To speak to the more general point - I know it's trendy these days to just drop the phrase "Stormwind Fallacy" into discourse to avoid any critical introspection of how mechanical choices affect roleplay, but I do have to ask - you really don't see how cutting the avenue to "bored of this now, wanna relevel/change class/feat" is a step towards improving roleplay and story integrity?

[Coolguy McMagic]

If we're commenting on tone and presentation, it feels only appropriate to say that your last paragraph comes off to me as rude and entitled towards people who put hours into providing us all free entertainment. As long as they're not throwing insults about they can make server updates however they damn well please, and there was nothing remotely uncivil about this one anyway.

To speak to the more general point - I know it's trendy these days to just drop the phrase "Stormwind Fallacy" into discourse to avoid any critical introspection of how mechanical choices affect roleplay, but I do have to ask - you really don't see how cutting the avenue to "bored of this now, wanna relevel/change class/feat" is a step towards improving roleplay and story integrity?

I do apologize if I came across as rude, that certainly was not my intention. But I do think it's true - nothing of Malkalz's explanation (which is very reasonable) mentions anything about RP, so I think my point is a fair one.
And if you re-read my post, you will see that I literally say that DMs should NOT have to change class/feat because people are bored. However, not allowing ANY class/feat changes does not follow from that, because not every request for such is guided by boredom.

I can bounce the topic of the Stormwind Fallacy right back at you - how does, for example, not having access to Expertise on a mundane martial character further RP? How is a new player, who did not know about the CON requirement of EDR and is following an EDR-based build on a low-CON race, experiencing better or more interesting RP?

[JingeKing]

but I do have to ask - you really don't see how cutting the avenue to "bored of this now, wanna relevel/change class/feat" is a step towards improving roleplay and story integrity?

So to reply to this since many seem to hold this view. I agree with you, that situations like this shouldn't be an allowable reason to get a change accepted.

It should be quite easy to see and weed out applicable tickets from the ones who are a bit much.

But that is 1 reason out of a pool of many.
If folk keep focusing on the minority and not the whole then it's a bit detrimental.

For example also like making changes due to whatever the smaller group of only pvp'ers/ whatever do. Changes made don't just effect them it effects everyone.

[PowerWord Rage]

If we're commenting on tone and presentation, it feels only appropriate to say that your last paragraph comes off to me as rude and entitled towards people who put hours into providing us all free entertainment. As long as they're not throwing insults about they can make server updates however they damn well please, and there was nothing remotely uncivil about this one anyway.

To speak to the more general point - I know it's trendy these days to just drop the phrase "Stormwind Fallacy" into discourse to avoid any critical introspection of how mechanical choices affect roleplay, but I do have to ask - you really don't see how cutting the avenue to "bored of this now, wanna relevel/change class/feat" is a step towards improving roleplay and story integrity?

I do apologize if I came across as rude, that certainly was not my intention. But I do think it's true - nothing of Malkalz's explanation (which is very reasonable) mentions anything about RP, so I think my point is a fair one.
And if you re-read my post, you will see that I literally say that DMs should NOT have to change class/feat because people are bored. However, not allowing ANY class/feat changes does not follow from that, because not every request for such is guided by boredom.

I can bounce the topic of the Stormwind Fallacy right back at you - how does, for example, not having access to Expertise on a mundane martial character further RP? How is a new player, who did not know about the CON requirement of EDR and is following an EDR-based build on a low-CON race, experiencing better or more interesting RP?

I don't understand where the problem is actually.

The current leveling system in Arelith is extremely fast and this is a known fact and can't be contested.
Having insufficient INT for expertise or having insufficient CON for EDR isn't a good example and probably a pretty bad example.
If you're not putting points to INT or CON, surely you felt that other stats are worth more important during character creation and if it was done without any knowledge of mechanics... Probably, you didn't even read any widely available build spreadsheets.

If you're still doing writs, this character is definitely less than a month old so, it's always possible to remake.
Now, i'm not trying to be sarcastic or harsh here but, Arelith is probably the -ONLY- server amongst the entire NWN persistent world that allows as of currently, infinite -relevel.
So, a character that is less than a month old and you feel that you've really done a terrible mistake on the build with regards to initial stats or feats or even class which i've written above that should not be too prevalent, considering that there're plenty of build spreadsheets everywhere.
We've to actually think from the standpoint that both -setstats and -setclass are actually not even supposed to exist.
If my memory is still accurate, three years ago, i'm pretty sure there isn't even a -relevel option freely available for everyone but actually strongly controlled by the DMs team.

This isn't about new or old players actually. Because the effort made, not the DMs, but from the player part to kick off the RP and process for either -setclass / -setstats are usually more hectic and time consuming than it actually takes to remake a new toon(with the ease of the current leveling pace), if there isn't a major overhaul.

Quoting an example of major overhaul imho, if Elementalist/Hemomancer no longer have infinite casting.
Something that seems impossible but actually happens.