Should hex have a hostile mechanic attached to it?

[Azensor]

Something i've been thinking about, if hex is a hostile act..and if hex is used on another player would it be easier for the player if hex auto hostiles the hexed person?

[The First Vicar]

It should do this. But Hexing someone isint inherently a hostile action in my opinion. I could hex you and walk away, also, through rp me hexing you could oocly tell you who hexes you through mechanical interactions and that takes all the rp out of the brief period that the hex remains active. That's just my two cents.

[Aren]

If I were a DM, and I am not, so take this with a grain of salt - I would tell the person who is hexing someone for "the lols" to either stop it if it isn't contributing to anything related to RP, and / or be aware that it can be treated as a hostile action by anyone if discovered.
Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

[Shadowy Reality]

On this note, I believe Hex still has a VFX attached to it when the original developer stated it should be without, as they envisioned it being able to be used in tournaments for example (and not by one of the combatants), without the whole audience realizing there's a Hexblade in their midst.

[perseid]

In my opinion it should be similar to past precedents where things like Trueseeing in certain contexts were regarded as a pvp-justifying action. So I think you should be able to use it without worrying over hostiling or having hostile auto-set from it but I also think if the other party notices they've been hexed by someone in a group they should be allowed to take immediate pvp action as if combat had been initiated.

[DM Monkey]

Hex is a hostile action. You must set hostile before using hex on another player.

[AstralUniverse]

Hex is a hostile action. You must set hostile before using hex on another player.

It's really sad to hear.

Hex has so much potential as an RP tool. It does not deal damage and does not proc any disables so it can be used as a semi-hostile tool without any pvp intent. It can be used in a crowd full of people and the victim cannot tell for sure who hexed them. It has potential. Framing it a strictly pvp action is pretty sad and removes the trickery aspect of it.

[Shadowy Reality]

Absolutely agree with the above. I can't recall where the post is but the original dev detailed very well how they envisioned Hex to work and definitely did not include a hostile before being used.

The whole purpose was someone feeling the Hex, knowing something was wrong, but not being sure what, why, or whom. Needing a hostile for that will basically lead to it being metagamed. I know it's not exactly on the same scale but how is it that different from someone having Invisibility Purge up and walking around Cordor removing people's concealment? You don't need to hostile for that.

Not to mention Hex can be removed with Restoration, it's not like someone will be crippled for the entirely of their play session.

Edit: I went ahead and found it, naturally point 3 is the relevant one for the discussion.

Just popping in to point out that ranger or paladin is a much better metric of comparison than spellsword. I agree the class could use some tweaks, although I haven't been around for awhile so I'm a bit out of touch with the balance situation.

1. Rework the elemental curses. Flat damage is kind of boring. Give them something more attractive, as the best builds just take the 4 damage one and load up on hexes. Maybe instead of damage, something like cold does a 10% slow for a round on hit, acid lowers physical resist by 5%, etc. These effects should stack with each other but not themselves (repeated hits wouldnt increase the slow to 20% just refresh the duration). Just something to make them more valuable and fun.

2. Change hexes to be a "steal effect." Half debuff and half buff. Instead of -4 to opponent's ab, make it -2 to opponent and +2 to hexblade. This would make it less of a dunk on one person in a group fight concern.

3. This might be controversial, but when I made the class I intentionally didn't give hex a vfx on the caster. I was hoping to see some subtle uses such as cheating in tournaments from the crowd. I think the vfx on the target as well is still way too obvious. I would remove the vfx entirely (or even better, code it so only the heckblade and target see it) and instead give the target a big thematic message that they'd been hexed.

4. Add a toggle to curse of sacrifice.

[DM Monkey]

You can still roleplay all of that, but before you use the hex you should be setting hostile. It has a malus that negatively effects another player, just because it’s an instant ability with a more subtle VFX doesn’t mean you get to skirt the rules of engagement that the rest of the server follows.

These are OOC rules, hostile is an OOC setting.

[Shadowy Reality]

But how is this line being drawn. Invisibility Purge strips people of concealment and invisibility which are not only defensive tools but also opens them to being scried. The VFX of Invisibility Purge is also not visible after the first transition. It works in fact as a highly specific breach effect.

It requires no hostile toggling.

[Choofed]

But how is this line being drawn. Invisibility Purge strips people of concealment and invisibility which are not only defensive tools but also opens them to being scried. The VFX of Invisibility Purge is also not visible after the first transition. It works in fact as a highly specific breach effect.

It requires no hostile toggling.

I feel this is all very clear. Here's an exerpt from the Rules of Engagement.

The point is that you must, in some way, alert the other player(s) behind the screen that they might be about to be attacked. It is for the sake of a narrative and being respectful, even if it puts you at a disadvantage. It is also possible for you to set conditions, such as: “If you walk away, I’ll kill you.” “If you ward, I’ll kill you.” If it is clear what you’re saying and they ignore you, then you’re allowed to attack the characters you gave the instruction to. Hostile must ALWAYS be established. First narratively and then mechanically. No fighting until that’s done.

A Hex is an attack. Intentionally trying to strip someone's invisibility is an attack. If you are intentionally trying to disable someone's defences via mechanical, you are attacking them. Otherwise you're saying "Me floor mording that group isn't a hostile action."

Dropping someone's saves, applying elemental & physical damage vulnerabilities, etc via a direct action skill on someone is excessively a hostile action.

[AstralUniverse]

If the hex is used for pvp but without hostile it doesnt give the hexblade any advantage. It's an instant action anyway. If they use it in pvp they are far better off using it a split second before attacking because it is way more effective, not in the middle of RP. I ask the staff to reconsider this. I know that when I played a hexblade on Skal long time ago I used hex once in a not-so-hostile scene, that did not result in pvp. The players present found it interesting that they cannot tell for sure who did the hex (but I did make sure they have a pretty good idea) and the victim had the time and place to emote their reaction in length. This doesnt happen when you immediately associate it with the hostile function. And now we're pretty much left to oocly tell the dude "I'm about to use hex, but I have no intention to engage in full pvp combat at the moment" and hope they dont meta-game you. I think it's just a waste of a very unique ability within the scope of purely just roleplay.

Just imagine a dude sitting eating popcorn in the audience of a tournament, having to hostile someone before hexing them in order to cheat the tournament. Does it not sound ridiculous?

You can still roleplay all of that, but before you use the hex you should be setting hostile.

Except when you hostile you jump-scare the other side and they just start warding. End of the scene. So no, you cant really RP all of the stuff you could RP after the hex is used.

[Waldo52]

If the hex is used for pvp but without hostile it doesnt give the hexblade any advantage. It's an instant action anyway. If they use it in pvp they are far better off using it a split second before attacking because it is way more effective, not in the middle of RP. I ask the staff to reconsider this. I know that when I played a hexblade on Skal long time ago I used hex once in a not-so-hostile scene, that did not result in pvp. The players present found it interesting that they cannot tell for sure who did the hex (but I did make sure they have a pretty good idea) and the victim had the time and place to emote their reaction in length. This doesnt happen when you immediately associate it with the hostile function. And now we're pretty much left to oocly tell the dude "I'm about to use hex, but I have no intention to engage in full pvp combat at the moment" and hope they dont meta-game you. I think it's just a waste of a very unique ability within the scope of purely just roleplay.

Just imagine a dude sitting eating popcorn in the audience of a tournament, having to hostile someone before hexing them in order to cheat the tournament. Does it not sound ridiculous?

You can still roleplay all of that, but before you use the hex you should be setting hostile.

Except when you hostile you jump-scare the other side and they just start warding. End of the scene. So no, you cant really RP all of the stuff you could RP after the hex is used.

Agreed 100%.

I'm playing a character with several hexblade levels for flavor, and the class really isn't offering me much beyond my pathetic familiar and a very weak hex.

While I haven't actually tried the hexing people in town thing, I think it's a really cool role play angle that doesn't involve anyone getting hurt. As the above poster mentioned, you don't know for sure who hexed you which allows for a lot of unique antagonistic roleplay angles that aren't direct combat.

It's not like there haven't been class based alterations in PvP rules in the past. For a long time assassins were literally allowed to jump out and kill people with no RP requirement. As a class that struggles to find a unique angle/niche besides BLACKGUARD ALTERNATIVE, I feel like allowing non hostile hexes would help the class feel more unique and have more to offer socially.

[DM Monkey]

You have a very clear warning here from a DM: Hex is a hostile action. You must hostile the other player before you use it. There must be interactive roleplay. Give the other player the benefit of the doubt and assume they will also follow the rules, and report them to us if they do not.

[AstralUniverse]

You have a very clear warning here from a DM: Hex is a hostile action. You must hostile the other player before you use it. There must be interactive roleplay. Give the other player the benefit of the doubt and assume they will also follow the rules, and report them to us if they do not.

I'm not typing because I'm going to ignore the rules. I'm typing because this policy sucks and I'm doing my best to explain why. I still hope the team will reconsider. cheers, and my thanks for addressing the issue.

[DM Monkey]

I understand. Just be aware that the hostile-on-spell/action is only there as a failsafe against people breaking the rules. It should not be relied upon for PvP, since people should be setting hostile first.

[The First Vicar]

Absolutely agree with the above. I can't recall where the post is but the original dev detailed very well how they envisioned Hex to work and definitely did not include a hostile before being used.

The whole purpose was someone feeling the Hex, knowing something was wrong, but not being sure what, why, or whom. Needing a hostile for that will basically lead to it being metagamed. I know it's not exactly on the same scale but how is it that different from someone having Invisibility Purge up and walking around Cordor removing people's concealment? You don't need to hostile for that.

Not to mention Hex can be removed with Restoration, it's not like someone will be crippled for the entirely of their play session.

Edit: I went ahead and found it, naturally point 3 is the relevant one for the discussion.

Just popping in to point out that ranger or paladin is a much better metric of comparison than spellsword. I agree the class could use some tweaks, although I haven't been around for awhile so I'm a bit out of touch with the balance situation.

1. Rework the elemental curses. Flat damage is kind of boring. Give them something more attractive, as the best builds just take the 4 damage one and load up on hexes. Maybe instead of damage, something like cold does a 10% slow for a round on hit, acid lowers physical resist by 5%, etc. These effects should stack with each other but not themselves (repeated hits wouldnt increase the slow to 20% just refresh the duration). Just something to make them more valuable and fun.

2. Change hexes to be a "steal effect." Half debuff and half buff. Instead of -4 to opponent's ab, make it -2 to opponent and +2 to hexblade. This would make it less of a dunk on one person in a group fight concern.

3. This might be controversial, but when I made the class I intentionally didn't give hex a vfx on the caster. I was hoping to see some subtle uses such as cheating in tournaments from the crowd. I think the vfx on the target as well is still way too obvious. I would remove the vfx entirely (or even better, code it so only the heckblade and target see it) and instead give the target a big thematic message that they'd been hexed.

4. Add a toggle to curse of sacrifice.

I was told my DM Witch that even if you hostile them and hex them, that you cannot just walk up to that other player and be like "Hey you hexed me!" bash That's metagaming. They have to find out, somehow, that it was actually YOU that hexed them before they start calling you out and proceed to putting a sword down your throat. Reputations can proceed someone, but unless its some kind of solid proof, I was told to report it.

[The First Vicar]

If the hex is used for pvp but without hostile it doesnt give the hexblade any advantage. It's an instant action anyway. If they use it in pvp they are far better off using it a split second before attacking because it is way more effective, not in the middle of RP. I ask the staff to reconsider this. I know that when I played a hexblade on Skal long time ago I used hex once in a not-so-hostile scene, that did not result in pvp. The players present found it interesting that they cannot tell for sure who did the hex (but I did make sure they have a pretty good idea) and the victim had the time and place to emote their reaction in length. This doesnt happen when you immediately associate it with the hostile function. And now we're pretty much left to oocly tell the dude "I'm about to use hex, but I have no intention to engage in full pvp combat at the moment" and hope they dont meta-game you. I think it's just a waste of a very unique ability within the scope of purely just roleplay.

Just imagine a dude sitting eating popcorn in the audience of a tournament, having to hostile someone before hexing them in order to cheat the tournament. Does it not sound ridiculous?

You can still roleplay all of that, but before you use the hex you should be setting hostile.

Except when you hostile you jump-scare the other side and they just start warding. End of the scene. So no, you cant really RP all of the stuff you could RP after the hex is used.

Not to mention the fact that if I cast withering ray or some other such hostile aoe attack it accidently inadvertently targets them too

[Waldo52]

You have a very clear warning here from a DM: Hex is a hostile action. You must hostile the other player before you use it. There must be interactive roleplay. Give the other player the benefit of the doubt and assume they will also follow the rules, and report them to us if they do not.

Would it be possible to institute a harmless hex or hex like ability with a flavor message to the tune of "you have been hexed. You have not been harmed but something doesn't feel right"? For the purposes of role play I think that would be fun and would avoid a lot of these PvP rules break problems.

[Amateur Hour]

You can still roleplay all of that, but before you use the hex you should be setting hostile.

Except when you hostile you jump-scare the other side and they just start warding. End of the scene. So no, you cant really RP all of the stuff you could RP after the hex is used.

Hostiling is an OOC action for mechanical purposes that no one should be reacting to IC; if you see that behavior, you should send a report.

[AstralUniverse]

You can still roleplay all of that, but before you use the hex you should be setting hostile.

Except when you hostile you jump-scare the other side and they just start warding. End of the scene. So no, you cant really RP all of the stuff you could RP after the hex is used.

Hostiling is an OOC action for mechanical purposes that no one should be reacting to IC; if you see that behavior, you should send a report.

If you turn someone hostile, in a hostile scene, and you also use an ability on them afterwards, and then they just attack you, you'd report them for it?

[Shadowy Reality]

It's like if you had to hostile someone to pickpocket them.
Someone sees the hostile and then some halfling in rags shuffling closer. How many people would not react to that even though it is 100% OOC knowledge. And as a sidenote, you do not even know who pickpocketed you unless you make a Spot check. Even though you can PvP immediately (after hostile) if you do make the Spot check.

I think people are bundling the Hex usage independently of the context of its use. If I am in a hostile interaction and PvP is likely, then I should indeed toggle the hostile button before using Hex (even though as Astral mentioned, better using it a second before the first hit).

If I am in a non-hostile interaction, my character is not currently in PvP and will not be in PvP with the target of the Hex then I do not see why I should need to toggle the hostile button. Say there's trial happening in Cordor and my Hexblade wants to try help his murderer friend. I could simply sit in the crowd do a Coughs into his hand and murmurs lowly afterwards and BAM the Judge is Hexed. I do not intend to get up and whack him, it's just a roleplay tool for the Judge to do something, hopefully roleplay along with it, maybe ask for a break. There's absolutely no need to require an hostile here and even give the OOC information to the other player of who did it, that's just asking for trouble. We have enough issues with the playerbase not trusting each other.

[DM Spark]

... There's absolutely no need to require an hostile here and even give the OOC information to the other player of who did it, that's just asking for trouble. We have enough issues with the playerbase not trusting each other...

You have a very clear warning here from a DM: Hex is a hostile action. You must hostile the other player before you use it. There must be interactive roleplay. Give the other player the benefit of the doubt and assume they will also follow the rules, and report them to us if they do not.

Monkey's reply is really clear, I think.

If you use Hex on another PC - hostile first. There's no exceptions. If players metagame the hostile action, report it to DMs via PM and we can handle it. If you're hexing without hostiling, you're breaking the PvP rules we have in place.

[Shadowy Reality]

I understand the ruling. I get that this is what I must do to abide by the rules currently. I don't intend to use Hex without hostiling first as it stands.

I am just trying to highlight why I think it does not entirely make sense.

[TimeAdept]

It's like if you had to hostile someone to pickpocket them.
Someone sees the hostile and then some halfling in rags shuffling closer. How many people would not react to that even though it is 100% OOC knowledge. And as a sidenote, you do not even know who pickpocketed you unless you make a Spot check. Even though you can PvP immediately (after hostile) if you do make the Spot check.

I think people are bundling the Hex usage independently of the context of its use. If I am in a hostile interaction and PvP is likely, then I should indeed toggle the hostile button before using Hex (even though as Astral mentioned, better using it a second before the first hit).

If I am in a non-hostile interaction, my character is not currently in PvP and will not be in PvP with the target of the Hex then I do not see why I should need to toggle the hostile button. Say there's trial happening in Cordor and my Hexblade wants to try help his murderer friend. I could simply sit in the crowd do a Coughs into his hand and murmurs lowly afterwards and BAM the Judge is Hexed. I do not intend to get up and whack him, it's just a roleplay tool for the Judge to do something, hopefully roleplay along with it, maybe ask for a break. There's absolutely no need to require an hostile here and even give the OOC information to the other player of who did it, that's just asking for trouble. We have enough issues with the playerbase not trusting each other.

Honestly: Yeah, in the current environment, a pickpocketer should have to hostile. Or being detected should automatically hostile.

But I am notoriously against pickpockets who 99.999% of the time tap their victim and then immediately lens or haste run away, knowing their victim has the burden of roleplay-and-hostile, and not the one who actually did the hostile action to begin with. If that message comes up, I have been aggressed. I should not have to stop, hostile, type "Hey, you, stop! I saw you put your hand into my backpack! If you don't stop, I'll be angry!" meanwhile they're 3 zones away. I should be able to f1 IKD the red man for his violence upon my person.

unfortunately the lack of trust issue is specifically why Hostiling is a requirement, because people are no-RPing hexing or using it pre-hostile to get free saveless debuffs on their enemies before fighting them.

EDIT

If you use Hex on another PC - hostile first. There's no exceptions. If players metagame the hostile action, report it to DMs via PM and we can handle it.

That said, this is basically impossible to prove unless you're running fraps or some other recorder 24/7 on the offchance something happens, because a screenshot or log is not likely to prove a series of actions. But in TYOOL 2023 (2024), everyone should be video recording every single hostile instance occurring on Arelith anyways.