Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Feedback relating to the other areas of Arelith, also includes old topics.


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AstralUniverse
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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by AstralUniverse »

The longer I play with quacks on both ways, the more I realize it just doesnt really contribute anything good...
When I see other people's quacks, are they really typing tho? Maybe they're typing something that they're only cooking, and might not actually end up posting, I know I do that all the time.. Just because someone's chat is active, doesnt mean they are actually typing something that they will end up posting, which means it doesnt really... indicate anything except that the person isnt afk (which isnt even 100% accurate here either, as someone could be afk with their chat active for some reason).

On the other hand, when I know there are quacks above my head, I feel like the spotlight is on me and now I have to deliver something, and I feel pressed to post whatever it is I was cooking, or not cook at all while I await the other side's response, which makes me emote less 'fills' and just talk and type less in general which is REALLY BAD for the server if even 10% of the players feel this way and we know it's more than that.

I think a huge part of Arelith's charm is baked into the chat's unpredictability. Sometimes it's quiet, and sometimes 5 people fire off an emote at once, and no one ever gets to feel like they were intentionally ignored (but maybe sometimes by accident, which is no big deal and doesnt mean anything negative about the person who was accidentally ignored) and no one ever gets pressured to react or to stop when they pass by someone. Now there's like an invisible pressure added in.

I'm gonna keep rolling with it for a while longer for the sake of trial and error time and do my part in the testing phase, but I'm really leaning into full opt-out thus far.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Aeryeris »

I think it's a great feature. I personally lean towards opting out however.

My reasons for this in no particular order are:

  • Visual noise, which I find unimmersive and shows up in screenshots.

  • Added pressure while typing.

  • Self-consciousness about starting a response and then deleting it without posting.

I hope it gets implemented for those who like this feature, but that the opt-out remains available and easily togglable so people can choose on a per scene basis whether to use it.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Salasker »

Originally, I thought this one of the greatest additions to the server. After some thought, and reading all the responses, I begin to have some doubts.

Kuma put it very well: It's not a typing indicator, it's a chat bar activity indicator. I've often found that I'll be typing either an emote or a response to what I think will be relevant, and I'm one of those pretty fast typer... er... types. With this system, though, I find myself hesitating to add those emotive 'colours' or curbing my own typing so as not to give the other player the idea that I'm responding when I'm just 'getting something ready'.

Conversely, I can see this as a marvelous boon to many players who are not quick on the keyboard. Over the years, I've met many people that suffer from a myriad of RL issues, from ESL students up to and including those without the use of both hands. I've often heard the lament that they don't feel like they can participate fully in Roleplaying because of this. I cannot imagine how wonderful this system could appear to them.

I've only tried it so far with it on, I'll see what it's like with it off, if it frees my own creativity up, as it were. I do think it's a great addition for those that may have felt marginalized due to RL health/physical limitations, though.

One final thought; I read the post about pressure to turn the indicators on with no small amount of concern. I hope anyone experiencing this reports it quickly, and that the Team deals with anyone putting such pressure on another player is dealt with both swiftly and sternly.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Dominus »

My feedback will be fairly quick: I like it, find it useful and I like the smaller size. I kept everything by default and enjoy the way it works as is.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Tikin »

Huge fan of the goal intended :heart:

While not perfect as is, responsivity to feedback brings me hope this will end up a useful tool ;-)

Toggle is neat, it saves a slot in (The Marvelous) Toolbar, nice.

Delay seems a super idea to counter issues like quackers appearing when self telling things like shop prices ... BUT: I tried it and it is a bit weird and shifty right now: You click your portrait in the chat box, wait the (5 seconds I chose for trying) delay, then the quackers appear, okay. BUT, if you click in (2 seconds) then out without typing anything, then in again, quackers can appear within 1 second despite still set on (5 seconds). Seems like delay count is cumulated somehow? Maybe not such a big deal but thought useful to report it.

Thanks for the great work! ;)

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by RedGiant »

I'll admit I have not read the now 5 pages of feedback, but here are my thoughts.

Love it. Totally in the spirit of a server with RP as the goal.

My only thoughts are that, given the above, you should not be able to "opt out" of a system designed to: enhance RP, give others the benefit of the doubt, and make everyone a little less trigger happy.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by AddledPunster »

As someone who enthusiastically endorsed Quackers as very useful tool for myself, I also want to express that at no point should anyone be forced to use them. I think having Quackers enabled for those who wish to use them is only a positive thing, but if someone is pressuring people to adopt the use, then that person is being a jerk and should be reported.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Chaoshawk »

I have given it a try so far and overall I am not a fan of it as a feature. It increases my anxiety more than doing good for me. I often stop my typing more frequently with the idea I am waiting for the other person to finish their message and I'm policing myself a lot more which results me in typing and participating less. I am generally a very fast typer and am usually happy if someone types slower or wants to think over their character's voice before hitting enter.

I never felt that I missed out on not knowing whether or not someone was typing and the courtesy to those I am role-playing with was maintained without needing dots above our characters' heads to have us communicate. More than one people have joked about potentially attacking or assassinating someone who 'appears afk' by not actively communicating with quackers on and I do actually worry about it being used as meta knowledge for conflict considerations because it provides an actual observable effect.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by ltlukoziuz »

Given how the feature's shaking out and the limitations it has (like needing to preset your own delay timers), I've eventually settled on the following:

/qu s 0 - don't show my own Quack
/qu all 1 - still see other Quacks
(and also verysmall/static)

And using it purely as a general activity indicator, to know that a person is there at all, not restrict myself on whether they're trying to say something or not. A useful tool to know if the slower person still wants to say something before leaving them, or making sure they're not AFK (I tend to always either /t if I need to do so or just log off for five minutes if I can, hence the lack of quacker from myself). Because otherwise, yeah, whenever there's more than two people in conversation, it goes a bit too frigidly for my likes, especially if I play the more lively of two characters I have now.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Dreams »

Someone gave me an override to turn the dots into little poops. That makes it pretty funny, but I've still got the system turned off because it just seems to get in the way and is annoying. It's very enjoyable when messing around on PGCC though.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by TheDoctor »

Salasker wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 9:22 am

Conversely, I can see this as a marvelous boon to many players who are not quick on the keyboard. Over the years, I've met many people that suffer from a myriad of RL issues, from ESL students up to and including those without the use of both hands. I've often heard the lament that they don't feel like they can participate fully in Roleplaying because of this. I cannot imagine how wonderful this system could appear to them.

So for me its mixed feelings as far as that goes... I have a habit of typing some words backwards and jumbled, often with a slightly misspelled word. People tell me that its because I try to type way to fast. Thats on me as I try to "keep the pace" during RP so if someone is an amazing and fast typer I try to keep up and the issues begin. Now I dont know if my ADHD is the culprit, my too fast typing or what.. Probably a combination of a few things.

So what does this system do for me?

Well its twofold... Good and bad...

The good? Well now poeple.. (I did it there, see?) Now people can see when I am typing out an emote and I feel like I can take the few extra moments to slow the eff down so my emotes are not as filled with mistakes. Its less stressful in many ways.

The bad? Same thing kinda... Now when I see a quacker goin off sometimes that has stopped my from making an emote or a comment my toon was about to make to give the other person a chance to finish. This in a way breaks the "flow of RP". Is this solvable? Very much so but more as a person by person basis as my solution and yours wont be the same. In this case my solution is to try and keep the "flow of RP" moving at a logical pace.

As long as people can opt out I see this as a good addition to QOL. Your post does makes me curious how our ESL friends are feeling about this and I will be asking on my discord for their opinions.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Windows95 CD-ROM »

I'm going to give my opinion on the quackers from the perspective of someone who has been rping on NWN for the past 5 years.

First off, I've never needed a typing indicator to tell me to wait for someone to finish typing or to give them space to continue typing. I simply type what I want to say, and if it's something long, I break it up into a few digestible bubbles. When I'm done typing, I pause and give my partner time to talk.

If that person is afk or tabbed out, I give them 5-10 minutes to come back or finish typing, and if it's longer than that, I send a polite tell.

I think that the typing indicators weren't really a needed change or something that the average player asked for. I think that the system as it is, if it's going to remain (which I assume it likely will), should be opt in, rather than opt out.

There are people who have a few concerns of abuse, or citing concerns about anxiety or feeling pressured. I don't think the quackers are a good accessibility tool for people with anxiety or ESL problems, if this is what this UI update was envisioned to be. I've always been met with courtesy and respect if I type slower in certain situations, and anxiety about typing has always existed with or without the quackers being there.
I suspect that for some, the quackers will add on to the pressure of feeling like people are waiting on for them to respond rather than giving them time to type. I'm not sure if people will take advantage of the quackers to abuse, it's not outside the realm of possibility, but I'm not sure how common this might actually happen in practice.

My concern is about how these quackers will inherently change the server culture in terms of brevity and how we treat one another. People have already started trying to pressure one another to make use of the quackers. I've heard people also report that the flow of roleplay has also begun to slow down in large group roleplay, and I'm concerned about whether players will start to pressure one another to stick to the concept of 'posting orders', that I've seen done in other roleplaying mediums such as World of Warcraft, and Conan Exiles servers (I think this is a very toxic concept and disrespectful of people's time, because players will scold each other or treat each other poorly for speaking outside their turn and it make roleplay encounters very, very slow). I'm also concerned about whether or not people will start to hold it against one another for not making use of the quackers, or the perception that people aren't willing to wait on one another to finish typing will fuel resentment, because as much as we might like to think that most people we meet are courteous, people will also be petty, and this HAS started to already happen.

One of the biggest things I enjoy about Neverwinter Nights roleplay is how quickly roleplayers respond to one another and how conversational dialogues are overall. The manner in which the pace that roleplay occurs has been unlike any other game or medium that I've experienced before, and this makes Neverwinter Nights unique. I've never really experienced people that type very slowly or find it a hurdle to communicate because of this (maybe when there's a dungeon happening and things are moving very fast, I've experienced that before many many times). I've also never felt pressured to respond if I am typing slowly. More often than not if there's a concern for ESL or disability when writing, I've had players respectfully communicate that to me OOCly and ask for patience, which I am more than glad to give for them.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Party in the forest at midnight »

Would it be possible to make a way to enable it for whispering? I thought the recent update was only for setting talk mode to whisper, not for whispering all together. I have a lot of silent conversations in my quarter so people outside the quarter can't overhear it, it would be nice if I could have the indicators there. After all, if it's an indicator that my character is speaking, people would be able to see that I'm speaking.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Emotionaloverload »

Hello,

If this is helping players, great. I would love for it to keep the 'opt out' option if we decide to keep it. I find it very distracting and takes away from the rp for me.

Thank you,

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Eira »

Tried it for a few hours.

It is way too distracting on others, and on me, I feel self-conscious and ended up stopping and restarting, or making typos far more than usual.

If this is implemented, my suggestion would be to make it opt-in, as in, having them off as the default so people can choose to turn them on, rather than have them on as the default and have players who start in a month or come back after a break go completely unaware they can even be turned off.

But overall, I would prefer the server without them.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by ReverentBlade »

I've been giving it a fair shake since the roll-out, but I did end up turning it off for myself today. I still keep other people's visible.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Dreams »

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 3:22 am

Would it be possible to make a way to enable it for whispering? I thought the recent update was only for setting talk mode to whisper, not for whispering all together. I have a lot of silent conversations in my quarter so people outside the quarter can't overhear it, it would be nice if I could have the indicators there. After all, if it's an indicator that my character is speaking, people would be able to see that I'm speaking.

Wasn't it previously established that these are OOC indicators and not WYSIWYG?

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by good man of god »

Hoodoo wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 12:24 am
good man of god wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 12:15 am
good man of god wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:53 am

Seems the quackers are now clipping into character's heads rather than floating neatly above them, after the size update.

OG quackers didn't do this.

Could it be something to do with them now not matching the various height parameters each character has?

Seems that changing to M size quackers helped alleviate the clipping, but its still doing it a bit.

Just FYI Hoodoo.

I forgot to include the re-adjusted quackers. I'll get them in by next reset, thanks!

Did this fix go in, Hoodoo? On tall characters or those with big helmets/hats its still clipping.

For example above average height human.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by good man of god »

Eira wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 4:20 am

Tried it for a few hours.

It is way too distracting on others, and on me, I feel self-conscious and ended up stopping and restarting, or making typos far more than usual.

If this is implemented, my suggestion would be to make it opt-in, as in, having them off as the default so people can choose to turn them on, rather than have them on as the default and have players who start in a month or come back after a break go completely unaware they can even be turned off.

But overall, I would prefer the server without them.

This is actually the perfect way to express my opinion too, so I'll +1 this.

I also have noticed that when I don't have the quackers on, and I'm typing for a long time, players are starting to move on without me, assuming I'm not typing, rather than waiting like we all used to pre-quacker trial.

Interesting how behaviours are changing, and maybe not for a net positive? I'm on the fence. Thoughts?

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Machado »

Kuma wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 4:25 am

I don't like them and won't use them. If they become mandatory I will protest heavily.

I also dislike the idea this is a purely net-positive accessibility concern - using these gives me MORE anxiety than less, and I know I'm not alone in that.

We've done fine for twenty years with the natural flow of roleplay indicating tempo; I don't need a [so and so is typing...] above anyone's head for that, and I think it's a sign of the times that people feel they need that. Overstimulated dopamine receptors needing a constant assurance of 'activity'.

It feels like a 'well another server/game/app/thing has it so we should too' idea. The fact it also doesn't really work as advertised - it isn't a 'typing indicator', it's a chat bar activity indicator - is kind of the icing on the cake. People are going to use it AS IF it were a real typing indicator, despite the fact it's not, which means it's already a sort of skewed metric (add in the heavy customisability of it to that, too).

+1 on this!
Hit the nail in the head, man.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Hoodoo »

good man of god wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 9:44 am
Hoodoo wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 12:24 am
good man of god wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2024 12:15 am

Seems that changing to M size quackers helped alleviate the clipping, but its still doing it a bit.

Just FYI Hoodoo.

I forgot to include the re-adjusted quackers. I'll get them in by next reset, thanks!

Did this fix go in, Hoodoo? On tall characters or those with big helmets/hats its still clipping.

For example above average height human.

I did adjust them to fix clipping issues with hoods but I guess I forgot to test for the tall dudes! My bad, I may or may not be able to get the clipping issue fixed by the end of the trial as I have a bit on my plate.

Also RE: whispering, I intend to make that a preference in the rest menu along with the next trial. For the time being it's going to remain as is, sorry! Just am quite busy right now!

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix »

Overall I quite like it and appreciate the development.

I'd prefer an indicator that was even smaller, and did not move (like a static dot). I do find the movement a part of what can make it feel a bit stressful.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Hoodoo »

Quidix wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 6:44 pm

Overall I quite like it and appreciate the development.

I'd prefer an indicator that was even smaller, and did not move (like a static dot). I do find the movement a part of what can make it feel a bit stressful.

Run /quackstyle vs to make it very small and
/quackstyle static to make it stay still

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by good man of god »

Machado wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 11:35 am
Kuma wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2024 4:25 am

I don't like them and won't use them. If they become mandatory I will protest heavily.

I also dislike the idea this is a purely net-positive accessibility concern - using these gives me MORE anxiety than less, and I know I'm not alone in that.

We've done fine for twenty years with the natural flow of roleplay indicating tempo; I don't need a [so and so is typing...] above anyone's head for that, and I think it's a sign of the times that people feel they need that. Overstimulated dopamine receptors needing a constant assurance of 'activity'.

It feels like a 'well another server/game/app/thing has it so we should too' idea. The fact it also doesn't really work as advertised - it isn't a 'typing indicator', it's a chat bar activity indicator - is kind of the icing on the cake. People are going to use it AS IF it were a real typing indicator, despite the fact it's not, which means it's already a sort of skewed metric (add in the heavy customisability of it to that, too).

+1 on this!
Hit the nail in the head, man.

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Re: Typing Indicator/Quacker Trial Feedback Thread

Post by Quidix »

Hoodoo wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 7:13 pm
Quidix wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 6:44 pm

Overall I quite like it and appreciate the development.

I'd prefer an indicator that was even smaller, and did not move (like a static dot). I do find the movement a part of what can make it feel a bit stressful.

Run /quackstyle vs to make it very small and
/quackstyle static to make it stay still

Oh that's nice, I had missed that!

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