Monk Design Discussion

[Peacewhisper]

Hello. Not dead. Sure it's not super high activity but the tides come and go. There are monks on Arelith and Soulhaven itself doesn't fit with every person's concept. Despite that we have consistent weekly meetings thanks to someone's character. Soulhaven also had an important part to play during the Weatherstone event, and it helped launch character arcs for at least three monks living there at the time, all of whom are still active on the server. I can say that the groundwork exists and Soulhaven can at least function in supplement to a character's story arc. But also that this is a delicate balance and if any of us drops due to real life circumstances then we might have real problems.

I can't do a comparison considering that a monk rework was announced literally before I even joined the server. But I can say that new monks that come in often have no idea a rework of the class is even happening. This happened again recently with a new and promising character which I hope does not demotivate them. I still do not know for certain the impact the rework has on our group. The majority of new promising members also being uninformed is an ominous sign however.

I hate to sound negative or discouraging but it seems pretty dead to me. Two or three players is abysmal for a location built around what was at one time a very popular class. Its good that some people are trying to keep monk RP going, but when the best quarter in the place sits empty, I'd say that's not a good sign. The fact that any new monks who do show up are blissfully unaware of the rework just goes to show that must be a major contributing factor in the decline of our monk population.

At present I also want to see more exciting things than what has so far been shown, but I doubt my true desires for an airbender are even in the direction of what is being considered.

Yeah, introducing elementalist but then killing any kind of class synergy it might have had with monk was really a missed opportunity. But I guess they don't want us role playing Avatar The Last Airbender.

[ReverentBlade]

Here's my feedback:

Soulhaven is basically dead because monk has been in development limbo for over a year now and nobody wants to play a class that's just going to be nerfed into the ground and forced to rebuild in the middle of their character arc. Only two quarters in Soulhaven were owned last I checked, and I'm convinced one of them isn't being owned for the purposes of monk RP. Y'all basically killed this whole class and any RP associated with it out of fear that it was overpowered, while plenty of more overpowered builds already existed and still do. Despite the fact that Divine Shield + Monk AC was already patched out and UBAB stripped from anything other than fists. This rework doesn't make sense, is objectively bad for the server, and tbh, I don't like the new monk at all or think anyone is seriously going to want to play it, it just looks bad.

Pretty blunt, but I do agree with it. The ki and unarmed fighting aspects are ingrained into my character's roleplay at this point, and I'm pretty sour that the rework will mechanically gut a long-term character that is already middling tier at best because the dev "just doesn't like unarmed fighting".

I guess I also lack a sense of humor, because the memes at our expense have not added to my goodwill towards the project.

You are breaking characters (again) on the -second- major overhaul of this class, ignoring the feedback of the people that actually play it, and laughing at our frustration.

I dislike that its -so- modular as to just be weak at everything, while still requiring a lot of level investment to be "okay" at the niche you are trying to pursue. I dislike the RP flavor being added in. I dislike that there have been no commitments (or even sympathetic mentions) towards assisted full level one rebuilds for people that have to entirely rethink their character.

I genuinely hope it never goes through.

[PredatorialRunt]

Here's my feedback:

Soulhaven is basically dead because monk has been in development limbo for over a year now and nobody wants to play a class that's just going to be nerfed into the ground and forced to rebuild in the middle of their character arc. Only two quarters in Soulhaven were owned last I checked, and I'm convinced one of them isn't being owned for the purposes of monk RP. Y'all basically killed this whole class and any RP associated with it out of fear that it was overpowered, while plenty of more overpowered builds already existed and still do. Despite the fact that Divine Shield + Monk AC was already patched out and UBAB stripped from anything other than fists. This rework doesn't make sense, is objectively bad for the server, and tbh, I don't like the new monk at all or think anyone is seriously going to want to play it, it just looks bad.

Pretty blunt, but I do agree with it. The ki and unarmed fighting aspects are ingrained into my character's roleplay at this point, and I'm pretty sour that the rework will mechanically gut a long-term character that is already middling tier at best because the dev "just doesn't like unarmed fighting".

I guess I also lack a sense of humor, because the memes at our expense have not added to my goodwill towards the project.

You are breaking characters (again) on the -second- major overhaul of this class, ignoring the feedback of the people that actually play it, and laughing at our frustration.

I dislike that its -so- modular as to just be weak at everything, while still requiring a lot of level investment to be "okay" at the niche you are trying to pursue. I dislike the RP flavor being added in. I dislike that there have been no commitments (or even sympathetic mentions) towards assisted full level one rebuilds for people that have to entirely rethink their character.

I genuinely hope it never goes through.

Seconded, from what was shown it's looking very bleak. The gutting of mechanics, the dev's reasoning why unarmed monk doesn't "fit" in the setting it's created in therefore it must be terrible, to the hyperfocus on multi-classing. I just don't get why this was needed, especially in this manner.

[jamesfelicia]

Hello. Not dead. Sure it's not super high activity but the tides come and go. There are monks on Arelith and Soulhaven itself doesn't fit with every person's concept. Despite that we have consistent weekly meetings thanks to someone's character. Soulhaven also had an important part to play during the Weatherstone event, and it helped launch character arcs for at least three monks living there at the time, all of whom are still active on the server. I can say that the groundwork exists and Soulhaven can at least function in supplement to a character's story arc. But also that this is a delicate balance and if any of us drops due to real life circumstances then we might have real problems.

I can't do a comparison considering that a monk rework was announced literally before I even joined the server. But I can say that new monks that come in often have no idea a rework of the class is even happening. This happened again recently with a new and promising character which I hope does not demotivate them. I still do not know for certain the impact the rework has on our group. The majority of new promising members also being uninformed is an ominous sign however.

I hate to sound negative or discouraging but it seems pretty dead to me. Two or three players is abysmal for a location built around what was at one time a very popular class. Its good that some people are trying to keep monk RP going, but when the best quarter in the place sits empty, I'd say that's not a good sign. The fact that any new monks who do show up are blissfully unaware of the rework just goes to show that must be a major contributing factor in the decline of our monk population.

I understand the general point putting aside quarter talk. But something needed to be said because these kinds of statements create self-fulfilling prophecy. If I and everyone involved in Soulhaven and anyone thinking about it believe it is empty and doomed then it really will die. When in reality one person can put in a little effort right now and make a big difference. To despair everyone over the state of things means I won't have anyone else even considering playing with me. Even if I can point at lengthy rework development as an excuse for difficulty and failure, and have it be a reasonable enough hypothesis for people to sympathize with me, I'm not going to do that because it doesn't help. It actually makes things harder. We all bear collective responsibility for community successes and failures. The only constructive answer I can give here is one of hope. As the Dao teaches, empty space is room for growth.

[PaaranDisen]

Here's my feedback:

Soulhaven is basically dead because monk has been in development limbo for over a year now and nobody wants to play a class that's just going to be nerfed into the ground and forced to rebuild in the middle of their character arc. Only two quarters in Soulhaven were owned last I checked, and I'm convinced one of them isn't being owned for the purposes of monk RP. Y'all basically killed this whole class and any RP associated with it out of fear that it was overpowered, while plenty of more overpowered builds already existed and still do. Despite the fact that Divine Shield + Monk AC was already patched out and UBAB stripped from anything other than fists. This rework doesn't make sense, is objectively bad for the server, and tbh, I don't like the new monk at all or think anyone is seriously going to want to play it, it just looks bad.

Pretty blunt, but I do agree with it. The ki and unarmed fighting aspects are ingrained into my character's roleplay at this point, and I'm pretty sour that the rework will mechanically gut a long-term character that is already middling tier at best because the dev "just doesn't like unarmed fighting".

I guess I also lack a sense of humor, because the memes at our expense have not added to my goodwill towards the project.

You are breaking characters (again) on the -second- major overhaul of this class, ignoring the feedback of the people that actually play it, and laughing at our frustration.

I dislike that its -so- modular as to just be weak at everything, while still requiring a lot of level investment to be "okay" at the niche you are trying to pursue. I dislike the RP flavor being added in. I dislike that there have been no commitments (or even sympathetic mentions) towards assisted full level one rebuilds for people that have to entirely rethink their character.

I genuinely hope it never goes through.

Seconded, from what was shown it's looking very bleak. The gutting of mechanics, the dev's reasoning why unarmed monk doesn't "fit" in the setting it's created in therefore it must be terrible, to the hyperfocus on multi-classing. I just don't get why this was needed, especially in this manner.

I agree with most of the above. I haven't rolled a monk character for a long time and by the looks of the coming changes, likely never will again. I used to main monks most of the time as I love the role play surrounding them, but things look as if it's turning into a grab-bag class with unarmed combat taking an absolute back foot because it's not 'realistic', when the monk being the unarmed class is one of the most iconic and recognizable tropes in D&D. The attitude to some of the constructive, critical feedback has also been largely dismissive or confrontational, so it feels like a pretty hopeless situation. Does monk need changes? Yup. Does it need to change like this? Nope. If such a wildly different class concept is desirable then make a new class.

[AstralUniverse]

Talking about what monk DOES need?

Probably just a couple more skill points per level, the Taunt skill as class skill, and probably that's already enough to make it very appealing without huge reworks and without making it overpowered. Also, movement bonus only reaching 30% on pure monk seems a bit too low and it would be more appealing (at least for me) if I could reach 40%, or possibly even 30% in combat and 40% out of combat.

Another thing I noticed. People are outright scared of playing Monk in it's current state because in their mind "as soon as I get to lvl 30 this rework will hit me like Murphy's law." and that's the biggest deal breaker for many people with this class, not it's design or it's powercreep.

Monk is otherwise fine.

[Iceborn]

I want to say, we are aware of the current limbo state of the class and the damage is causing.
However, it's a slow time in development right now. RL is always there in the corner and we can only move forward as time and opportunity permits.

The monk rework has received a lot of flak (most of it quite justifiable) and thus the design has to keep mutating into a shape that would result in the better version of the class. Predictable, more changes equates more development work, that have to go through the lengthy chain of reviewing, testing, further reviewing, and eventual integration.

It is too late for "we should have" and "it would have been better if"; the overhaul is in the works, but hopefully it won't be in the works much longer. At the very least, it is my goal to make the transition for the newmonks as seamless as possible, and push this boulder uphill until it can roll from the other side, or it becomes obvious that there's no end to the hill and we can choose instead to obliterate the boulder.

[Dreams]

There's still time to just release it as its own new class. It isn't a monk in the setting. Rather than gutting a traditional core class, this could just be released as Newmonk. That way players currently playing traditional monks won't get completely shafted when the new one comes out.

[Peacewhisper]

Its pretty safe to assume that whoever is in charge of monk rework sees the class as the red-headed step-child of the server.

[Security_Blanket]

Its pretty safe to assume that whoever is in charge of monk rework sees the class as the red-headed step-child of the server.

I don't think they'd take on the project if they weren't interested in seeing it through, they're all volunteers and probably not trying to waste their own time.

Personally, I find a lot of these class changes to be confusing, all the new classes, extreme changes to existing classes, it's just too much information. I have no idea what a few of these classes are capable of and I don't have the time and interest to figure it out, especially when it's likely to get changed in the coming months.

[Kenji]

First order of business: I would like to thank Iceborn for picking up the torch from Zaphiel and taking up the mantle of coding for Monk Overhaul so I may address some of the concerns voiced here.

[Kenji]

The attitude to some of the constructive, critical feedback has also been largely dismissive or confrontational, so it feels like a pretty hopeless situation.

I will assume the lack of communication from my end is misconstrued as, and I quote, "largely dismissive or confrontational". I've went over your posts as well as my own a dozen times to figure out how that was the case a year ago. It looks like you have misunderstood.

I simply was unable to reply due to real life reasons. I will disclose them: I had a newborn son at the time, and I joined the Marine Corps. I was, at best, able to respond to some of the lighthearted contents as I was incapable of doing long winded discussions on my phone, especially monk, given how little access I have of my phone as well as internet. Not to mention the veiled vitriol that comes with every single monk rework that really discourages one from responding in full.

I haven't rolled a monk character for a long time and by the looks of the coming changes, likely never will again.

From what I've gathered thus far, this is an overreaction to the direction of the design, which I understand. Change is daunting, it has happened to you more than once, from the sound of your post history. Believe me when I say I understand the frustration.

Because it has also happened to me.

Mind, I played two monks before I joined the development team:

1. A katana-dual-wielding UBAB Monk during the first monk summer - I played it as a traveling Ronin
2. a 30 pure fist monk during the second monk summer - this was my Ilmatari beggar monk

They both got changed beyond recognition from the reworks that followed. The current iteration (before this overhaul) is the work of both Jack Oat and Garrbear's. I joined the development team shortly after. I also got fed up with the changes, too, even though knowing the changes are for the greater good.

This was not the only time, either. Before the two monks, I played Quartermaster Soirin and she was built with GSF Enchantment in mind as an archer path ranger to both provide Enchantment (dweomercraft now) and free arrow bundle services to Skaljard characters back then. The character changes were twofold: enchantment dislodged from dweomercraft and ammo bundle being made available to everyone with relevant feats. I rolled her shortly as the mechanics that defined her existence ceased (along with burn out, too, I suppose).

I understand what it is like to lose a character concept you hold so dear.

Yet I still firmly believe this new monk design is to cater to both fist and weapon monk, if not more, concepts to come. It will broaden the horizon of what is conceived as monk.

Truth be told, the whole reason for this overhaul started out for very personal reasons: I wanted a monk overhaul that does both fist and weapon monk builds mechanically at first. But then I realized that is a narrow view on what else can be done for monk, so I had further ambitions for the overhaul.

Has real life gotten in the way? To put it that way, sure. Has the approach been perfected to cater to everyone? Likely never will be, but it is still being improved. I do want to say that this overhaul has also taught me a great deal in development, public relations, and self-improvement. Because of this overhaul, I have ventured out to experience things I have never thought to experience before.

So, I want to thank you all to be a part of this journey, whether willingly or not. I have learned far more from this process than I would have imagined. I just hope I will change some minds, if not soothe them, for the overhauls to come.

[Kenji]

At present I also want to see more exciting things than what has so far been shown, but I doubt my true desires for an airbender are even in the direction of what is being considered.

Yeah, introducing elementalist but then killing any kind of class synergy it might have had with monk was really a missed opportunity. But I guess they don't want us role playing Avatar The Last Airbender.

Bruh, I'd kill to see element bending monks RP'd as Ki with elementalist monk builds running around. The Ki Barrier changes listed in intended Vigilante changes and some collaboration with Amnesy on that end should help with this, we'll see.

[Kenji]

I guess I also lack a sense of humor, because the memes at our expense have not added to my goodwill towards the project.

You are breaking characters (again) on the -second- major overhaul of this class, ignoring the feedback of the people that actually play it, and laughing at our frustration.

I dislike that its -so- modular as to just be weak at everything, while still requiring a lot of level investment to be "okay" at the niche you are trying to pursue. I dislike the RP flavor being added in. I dislike that there have been no commitments (or even sympathetic mentions) towards assisted full level one rebuilds for people that have to entirely rethink their character.

I genuinely hope it never goes through.

I want to dissect and address every single statement here to the point I have to sit back and wonder, and I genuinely ask:
Is this an attempt at overreaching to get a reaction or response out of me? Do you want my attention and response? Be honest, if this is an attempt at getting me to spend hours on responding to your post in order to further postpone the monk rework, well...

It kind of works, but no. Monk Overhaul will go through eventually. I was not laughing at you or your frustration (maybe a little bit).

It will also technically be the 3rd major overhaul of the class since I can remember. Maybe more if we go back far enough.

The class being weak at everything just means it is not adjusted and tuned to what it should be yet. As noted here, it will be tuned when the features are functioning as intended:

1. Design
2. PGCC Release (function testing)
3. PGCC Feedback
   4. Pre-live Balancing
4. Live release
5. Live Feedback
6. Post-live Balancing

I am most certainly not ignoring the feedback. There is just so much of them to sift through and I promise you all, adjustments have been made. But because Monk is such a dear subject to everyone that one can only choose to spend the time on responding or doing actual work. (Well, maybe only Zap and Ice are doing the actual work while I fudge around IRL and just sh*tpost once in a while)

I simply was unable to reply due to real life reasons. I will disclose them: I had a newborn son at the time, and I joined the Marine Corps. I was, at best, able to respond to some of the lighthearted contents as I was incapable of doing long winded discussions on my phone, especially monk, given how little access I have of my phone as well as internet. Not to mention the veiled vitriol that comes with every single monk rework that really discourages one from responding in full.

[Kenji]

I have to address this at some point:

This is the prime example of blowing a singular statement out of proportions due to misunderstanding (or the lack of understanding) in word choices.

Allow me to point out the original post from me a year ago:

believe the sentiment from the team and myself on this were "no" a while back because it'd further enable "fighting these dragons and demonic beings with just your fist!" which is counter to the immersion. While one already can do so, fist fighting is not something that should be on par with weapon fighting. And players who want to make fistfighting a focus on their characters should recognize that it is, while viable, a suboptimal option by choice. At least that is the intention behind the design.

It started out with me telling everyone that the design intention behind unarmed is that it will be viable, but suboptimal. It will not be on par with weapon fighting, but it will be, again, viable.

However, with each response and quotation, it has devolved into...

Pretty blunt, but I do agree with it. The ki and unarmed fighting aspects are ingrained into my character's roleplay at this point, and I'm pretty sour that the rework will mechanically gut a long-term character that is already middling tier at best because the dev "just doesn't like unarmed fighting".

Since when did I claim I don't like unarmed fighting? I grew up watching Kung Fu Hustle and Shaolin Soccer; if anything, unarmed fighting is all I'm trying to make viable without it being broken so it's never nerfed again! I wanted more than just 6 APR UBAB but also some cool interactive gameplay to play with, make it feel engaging.

Seconded, from what was shown it's looking very bleak. The gutting of mechanics, the dev's reasoning why unarmed monk doesn't "fit" in the setting it's created in therefore it must be terrible, to the hyperfocus on multi-classing. I just don't get why this was needed, especially in this manner.

I did not say unarmed monk doesn't fit the setting nor will it be terrible. If it doesn't fit, at all, it will be removed. For example: the team did not want to introduce Psi abilities to players so the Psi-related feats got binned. That's the definition of not fitting the setting (in terms of player access). Also, if it is to be terrible, then by definition it will not be viable, which is not the intention, at all.

but things look as if it's turning into a grab-bag class with unarmed combat taking an absolute back foot because it's not 'realistic', when the monk being the unarmed class is one of the most iconic and recognizable tropes in D&D.

Realism and immersion are two very different things. If anything, I can speak for everyone that they do not want any fantasy to be completely realistic. Plenty of our designs can take inspiration from some real-life stuffs, but not entirely or always. Nothing was close to being argued about realism here. We need to recognize the difference between immersion and realism.

---

Now, in regard to immersion. This has been brought up multiple times everywhere else. It's one thing to want to roleplay as Ilmater's Avatar and punch through everything with one's fist, it's another to mechanically make it so. The sentiment here is to argue that just because it says level 30 on a wizard's character sheet, does not mean it actually represents a level 30 character as originally intended by the sourcebooks.

Our characters are more so level 15 in PnP terms of access to spells, weapons, or "power-levels", as vague as it all sounds. Consequently, an unarmed monk can still be powerful, just not as powerful as what I deem the 2nd monk summer kind of powerful. Because that iteration of fist monk actually does feel oppressive compared to everyone else. I enjoyed that summer, too, but at the expense of everyone else's immersion.

And so, our design intention is to make sure fist monks aren't on par (so 1 AB and/or 5 average damage less than) with, for example, a weapon master in terms of dealing damage. But with it, they should make up for more on other ends, we'll see.

---

I hope we all learned a valuable lesson here in nomenclature and, perhaps, semantics. Don't take things in stride, think critically on what is said, and respond with critical thoughts rather than first thoughts or impressions.

[Iceborn]

Allow me to point out the original post from me a year ago:

believe the sentiment from the team and myself on this were "no" a while back because it'd further enable "fighting these dragons and demonic beings with just your fist!" which is counter to the immersion. While one already can do so, fist fighting is not something that should be on par with weapon fighting. And players who want to make fistfighting a focus on their characters should recognize that it is, while viable, a suboptimal option by choice. At least that is the intention behind the design.

It started out with me telling everyone that the design intention behind unarmed is that it will be viable, but suboptimal. It will not be on par with weapon fighting, but it will be, again, viable.

I want to touch on this because it may sound like we are deliberately going to make fists weaker.
That's not the case; fist have always been subpar for monks. You have to fling out one of your gear slots and use it as a weapon (in a class that already needs to increase 4 different ability scores), to use a 20/x2 crit weapon, that you can't even Keen? A weapon that is 2d6 at best if you commit the crime of going for a small race monk. It's madness.
And it's suboptimal.

But it will definitely remain as a completely viable choice. If I can help it, a more than viable choice.
This is a setting where we have people shooting lasers from the eyes and speaking in tongues to summon eldritch nameless abominations, where the study of the arcane imbues a sword to make it cleave through metal like it's butter and with the correct know-how you can evoke a literal mini-nuke.

It is also a setting where you can beat dragons and demons with the power of perfection made manifest into the shape of ki-infused fist.

[Peacewhisper]

The Ki Barrier changes listed in intended Vigilante changes and some collaboration with Amnesy on that end should help with this, we'll see.

Where can I find documentation about these upcoming changes? I'd like to be able to plan any future vigilante builds accordingly.

[Kenji]

The Ki Barrier changes listed in intended Vigilante changes and some collaboration with Amnesy on that end should help with this, we'll see.

Where can I find documentation about these upcoming changes? I'd like to be able to plan any future vigilante builds accordingly.

I thought I had posted it in public somewhere, but here it is:

Ki Barrier Changes:

• Active Feat component removed
• Wisdom to AC is all passive
• Relevant events should update Wisdom to AC (no more equipping and unequipping to force update Wis to AC shenanigans)
  1. Spells that increase or decrease Wisdom scores
  2. Equipping/Unequipping gear
  3. Resting
  4. Leveling Up
• Scaling depends on the following:
  1. Monk Discipline Mastery (further details TBD from Monk Overhaul)
  2. Unarmored (1:1), Lightly Armored (2/3), or Shield (0)

[Wizard Khalifa]

Allow me to point out the original post from me a year ago:

believe the sentiment from the team and myself on this were "no" a while back because it'd further enable "fighting these dragons and demonic beings with just your fist!" which is counter to the immersion. While one already can do so, fist fighting is not something that should be on par with weapon fighting. And players who want to make fistfighting a focus on their characters should recognize that it is, while viable, a suboptimal option by choice. At least that is the intention behind the design.

It started out with me telling everyone that the design intention behind unarmed is that it will be viable, but suboptimal. It will not be on par with weapon fighting, but it will be, again, viable.

I want to touch on this because it may sound like we are deliberately going to make fists weaker.
That's not the case; fist have always been subpar for monks. You have to fling out one of your gear slots and use it as a weapon (in a class that already needs to increase 4 different ability scores), to use a 20/x2 crit weapon, that you can't even Keen? A weapon that is 2d6 at best if you commit the crime of going for a small race monk. It's madness.
And it's suboptimal.

But it will definitely remain as a completely viable choice. If I can help it, a more than viable choice.
This is a setting where we have people shooting lasers from the eyes and speaking in tongues to summon eldritch nameless abominations, where the study of the arcane imbues a sword to make it cleave through metal like it's butter and with the correct know-how you can evoke a literal mini-nuke.

It is also a setting where you can beat dragons and demons with the power of perfection made manifest into the shape of ki-infused fist.

I want to touch on this because it may sound like we are deliberately going to make fists weaker.
That's not the case; fist have always been subpar for monks. You have to fling out one of your gear slots and use it as a weapon (in a class that already needs to increase 4 different ability scores), to use a 20/x2 crit weapon, that you can't even Keen? A weapon that is 2d6 at best if you commit the crime of going for a small race monk. It's madness.
And it's suboptimal.

But it will definitely remain as a completely viable choice. If I can help it, a more than viable choice.
This is a setting where we have people shooting lasers from the eyes and speaking in tongues to summon eldritch nameless abominations, where the study of the arcane imbues a sword to make it cleave through metal like it's butter and with the correct know-how you can evoke a literal mini-nuke.

It is also a setting where you can beat dragons and demons with the power of perfection made manifest into the shape of ki-infused fist.

I think the current monk unarmed DPS are quite solid if you really optimized it. With 15 level in monks and 5 level of any full BAB class at level 20, you can actually get 6 APR, with flurry, you get 7 APR and with haste you get 8 APR per round.

In terms of damage, if you get ki strike 4 and 5, that's add 4, combat mastery adds 3, weapon specialization and epic gives 6 or full monk adds 3 more and let's say you have 10 or 12 base str, if you manage to max it, it gives at least 6 or 7 from str modifier so the physical damage would be at least 20 dmg that adds on medium size monk 1d20(for a lawful class, monk has the most chaotic damage roll) that would be 21-40. then if you add it perm and temp essence, 4 and 1d6 former and latter, that's additional 10 damage or so. Lastly, Disciple wrap can actually be keened by enchantment(I can personally attest to this) or maybe 1d4 damage bonus so in the end, every medium size monk unarmed attack can reach about 27-54 damage. As far as I know, it's like sometimes you get 1handed damage then you get 2handed damage in your attacks.

Of course the downside is that you get like 20 x2 with even the highest crit threat is like 18-20 and no way to improve the crit multiplier but tbf, with at least 6APR and potentially 8APR, i think it's justified. If there's a nerf with the rework it's that they want to replace -3 iterative penalty with -5 iterative penalty between APR. I feel like this was the only advantage it has against other weapons. Can we compromise by making it -4?

Also I hope this thread is the right place to put this forth but I think Monk are the most affected amongst the martial class when it comes to biteback shield that is casted by undeads or any enemies with damage reduction since most martial class have 4 or 6 apr but they can at least, bless weapon for undead and generally have a consistent damage with higher chance to crit or with higher crit multiplier against damage reduction but monks can actually be outdamaged by the biteback shield due to not being able to bless weapon their glove and their inconsistent damage and crit against damage reduction. even with perm def essence, at epic level, most biteback shield hits like 25+ dmg so when I run into a cave slimes with a mistil sheath I either have to lesser spell breach scroll or if I have any class that has UMD to lesser breach or I use the old mundane way of running around in circle waiting for the biteback shield to expire, I can accept if it's like the boss of the dungeon but cave slimes are the most avoided enemies for me just because of this. So I thought maybe we can introduce something like - let's call it breaching fist that has an effect of lesser spell breach that uses the charge of stunning fist. just to sell it even more, at epic level, it has an upgraded version that use greater spell breach that use 2 charge.

[Iceborn]

I stand corrected. You can Keen gloves.

As for newmonks, UBAB is in the chopping block and scheduled to be removed entirely, but it sort of lands in the same spot.
Flurry of Blows and Brawler feat remains.
FoB adds 1 APR at the cost of -2 AB, for fists and monk weapons.
Brawler adds 1 to 2 APR, based on your BAB.

That said, the APR granted by Brawler - I think - are added to the bonus attack track.
So while weapon martials may end up with a APR progression that looks like +50/+45/+40/+35/+50 (if hasted).
A monk would look more like +50/+45/+40/+35/+50/+45/+40/+35 (if hasted, -2 when using FoB).

The bitebacks have always been a huge detriment to low-damage-high-APR builds. I wouldn't mind to see some anti-magic and breaching fists at some point, but those will probably fall in as later updates, ideally after release.

[Coolguy McMagic]

Allow me to point out the original post from me a year ago:

believe the sentiment from the team and myself on this were "no" a while back because it'd further enable "fighting these dragons and demonic beings with just your fist!" which is counter to the immersion. While one already can do so, fist fighting is not something that should be on par with weapon fighting. And players who want to make fistfighting a focus on their characters should recognize that it is, while viable, a suboptimal option by choice. At least that is the intention behind the design.

It started out with me telling everyone that the design intention behind unarmed is that it will be viable, but suboptimal. It will not be on par with weapon fighting, but it will be, again, viable.

I want to touch on this because it may sound like we are deliberately going to make fists weaker.
That's not the case; fist have always been subpar for monks. You have to fling out one of your gear slots and use it as a weapon (in a class that already needs to increase 4 different ability scores), to use a 20/x2 crit weapon, that you can't even Keen? A weapon that is 2d6 at best if you commit the crime of going for a small race monk. It's madness.
And it's suboptimal.

But it will definitely remain as a completely viable choice. If I can help it, a more than viable choice.
This is a setting where we have people shooting lasers from the eyes and speaking in tongues to summon eldritch nameless abominations, where the study of the arcane imbues a sword to make it cleave through metal like it's butter and with the correct know-how you can evoke a literal mini-nuke.

It is also a setting where you can beat dragons and demons with the power of perfection made manifest into the shape of ki-infused fist.

Small note on this: Fist Monk is definitely better than Weapon Monk in the current iteration. There's very little reason to play a Monk with a weapon unless it's only for a dip.

I also think the vital point here is not how unarmed monk compares to armed Fighter/WM/Paladins or whatever, it's how unarmed monk compared to armed monk.
Yes, it's fine that unarmed monks deal less damage than other optimized martial builds. But there is a trade-off there: monks get other utility and defense that these classes do not usually get. The consequence is that unarmed monks are able to fill a niche. If unarmed monks deal less damage and are also generally worse than armed monks, we have a serious problem there, because then there really is no reason to play those other than for RP purposes - regardless of whether or not they are technically viable. And I think that would be a real shame as it is THE standout feature of the entire class.

[Kenji]

I think the current monk unarmed DPS are quite solid if you really optimized it. With 15 level in monks and 5 level of any full BAB class at level 20, you can actually get 6 APR, with flurry, you get 7 APR and with haste you get 8 APR per round.

In terms of damage, if you get ki strike 4 and 5, that's add 4, combat mastery adds 3, weapon specialization and epic gives 6 or full monk adds 3 more and let's say you have 10 or 12 base str, if you manage to max it, it gives at least 6 or 7 from str modifier so the physical damage would be at least 20 dmg that adds on medium size monk 1d20(for a lawful class, monk has the most chaotic damage roll) that would be 21-40. then if you add it perm and temp essence, 4 and 1d6 former and latter, that's additional 10 damage or so. Lastly, Disciple wrap can actually be keened by enchantment(I can personally attest to this) or maybe 1d4 damage bonus so in the end, every medium size monk unarmed attack can reach about 27-54 damage. As far as I know, it's like sometimes you get 1handed damage then you get 2handed damage in your attacks.

Of course the downside is that you get like 20 x2 with even the highest crit threat is like 18-20 and no way to improve the crit multiplier but tbf, with at least 6APR and potentially 8APR, i think it's justified. If there's a nerf with the rework it's that they want to replace -3 iterative penalty with -5 iterative penalty between APR. I feel like this was the only advantage it has against other weapons. Can we compromise by making it -4?

Small note on this: Fist Monk is definitely better than Weapon Monk in the current iteration. There's very little reason to play a Monk with a weapon unless it's only for a dip.

I also think the vital point here is not how unarmed monk compares to armed Fighter/WM/Paladins or whatever, it's how unarmed monk compared to armed monk.
Yes, it's fine that unarmed monks deal less damage than other optimized martial builds. But there is a trade-off there: monks get other utility and defense that these classes do not usually get. The consequence is that unarmed monks are able to fill a niche. If unarmed monks deal less damage and are also generally worse than armed monks, we have a serious problem there, because then there really is no reason to play those other than for RP purposes - regardless of whether or not they are technically viable. And I think that would be a real shame as it is THE standout feature of the entire class.

Hmm. Good point there.

Currently the Non-Monk Weapon Builds ≅ Unarmed Monks >> Weapon Monks

Looks like the takeaway from all this is to nerf all non-monk weapon builds to the same power level as weapon monk, and so we can justify nerfing unarmed monks. Got it.

Buff Weapon Monk
Nerf all other non-monk weapon builds
Nerf Unarmed Monk
Peak game development and mechanics' balancing if I do say so myself.

Can we compromise by making it -4?

In all seriousness, this can be the case if number crunches are done to support it with the new intended features taken into consideration.

[Wethrinea]

I thought I had posted it in public somewhere, but here it is:

Ki Barrier Changes:

• Active Feat component removed
• Wisdom to AC is all passive
• Relevant events should update Wisdom to AC (no more equipping and unequipping to force update Wis to AC shenanigans)
  1. Spells that increase or decrease Wisdom scores
  2. Equipping/Unequipping gear
  3. Resting
  4. Leveling Up
• Scaling depends on the following:
  1. Monk Discipline Mastery (further details TBD from Monk Overhaul)
  2. Unarmored (1:1), Lightly Armored (2/3), or Shield (0)

Will it be available as a general feat, or still be class locked? If the latter, are you still planning on removing the dirty fighting pre-req from vigilante? clumsily low-dex fingers crossed

[Wizard Khalifa]

I stand corrected. You can Keen gloves.

As for newmonks, UBAB is in the chopping block and scheduled to be removed entirely, but it sort of lands in the same spot.
Flurry of Blows and Brawler feat remains.
FoB adds 1 APR at the cost of -2 AB, for fists and monk weapons.
Brawler adds 1 to 2 APR, based on your BAB.

That said, the APR granted by Brawler - I think - are added to the bonus attack track.
So while weapon martials may end up with a APR progression that looks like +50/+45/+40/+35/+50 (if hasted).
A monk would look more like +50/+45/+40/+35/+50/+45/+40/+35 (if hasted, -2 when using FoB).

The bitebacks have always been a huge detriment to low-damage-high-APR builds. I wouldn't mind to see some anti-magic and breaching fists at some point, but those will probably fall in as later updates, ideally after release.

Can we compromise by making it -4?

In all seriousness, this can be the case if number crunches are done to support it with the new intended features taken into consideration.

If that's the case, then it's probably fine at -5 if the brawler feat makes it that way.

I wanna put forth a suggestion about the disciplines.

Is it possible to make monk bonus feat able to designate the discipline regardless of what feat it is(most of them). This dispel the problem of having too much or too little in a discipline and forcing you to take feats you don’t need. This means as a pure monk, you can pursue a master tier on any discipline without taking too many of the actual discipline feats. Of course this only applies for bonus feat and not general feat.

For example: If you’re going for balance pure newmonk, In body discipline- you decided to get dodge, empty body, evasion, improved evasion, Ki Barrier, Epic Dodge, Armor Skin, Ki Sprint, Purity of body, Ki strike, Improved Ki Strike, Toughness and wholeness of body but that’s like 13 feats. You only need 9 feats for body discipline balance. So what if we can designate and change the discipline of four of any these feats via bonus feat of our choice?

I guess the downside is that it’s a pain with the coding as lots of the feats needs variations.

[Kenji]

Ki Barrier Changes:

• Active Feat component removed
• Wisdom to AC is all passive
• Relevant events should update Wisdom to AC (no more equipping and unequipping to force update Wis to AC shenanigans)
  1. Spells that increase or decrease Wisdom scores
  2. Equipping/Unequipping gear
  3. Resting
  4. Leveling Up
• Scaling depends on the following:
  1. Monk Discipline Mastery (further details TBD from Monk Overhaul)
  2. Unarmored (1:1), Lightly Armored (2/3), or Shield (0)

Will it be available as a general feat, or still be class locked? If the latter, are you still planning on removing the dirty fighting pre-req from vigilante? clumsily low-dex fingers crossed

I want to say a feature such as Ki Barrier requires somewhat of a hefty investment, which usually a class slot or class levels are warranted much like Divine feats.

For the APR builds (melee, ranged, physical attacks, touch attacks), very often the class slot would mean access to div, Wis to AC, UMD, tumble, or WM.

For the caster builds, the investment would be the cost of character levels, which then translates to caster levels.

Vigilante will likely see a reduction in its prerequisites, but it's still being decided among the mechanics team.

As for making Ki Barrier available beyond Vigilante or Monk? Might have to visit them on a case-by-case basis dependent on class. Maybe Druid and Shaman can spend a feat for them whereas Clerics have to sacrifice a class slot and CL for them? It's up to discussion.

Is it possible to make monk bonus feat able to designate the discipline regardless of what feat it is(most of them). This dispel the problem of having too much or too little in a discipline and forcing you to take feats you don’t need. This means as a pure monk, you can pursue a master tier on any discipline without taking too many of the actual discipline feats. Of course this only applies for bonus feat and not general feat.

For example: If you’re going for balance pure newmonk, In body discipline- you decided to get dodge, empty body, evasion, improved evasion, Ki Barrier, Epic Dodge, Armor Skin, Ki Sprint, Purity of body, Ki strike, Improved Ki Strike, Toughness and wholeness of body but that’s like 13 feats. You only need 9 feats for body discipline balance. So what if we can designate and change the discipline of four of any these feats via bonus feat of our choice?

I guess the downside is that it’s a pain with the coding as lots of the feats needs variations.

The current plan (from Ice) is to make a NUI panel that allows players to distribute the Discipline Mastery points, and it'll be a combination of a minor bit of restrictions (reduction of 12 relevant feats to 3) as well as any feat count beyond the restrictions count towards the distribution as a bonus.

It'll all make more sense when PGCC changes are in.

The numbers will subject to change depending on various factors and are not final.