Overall Summons Rework [Outdated!]

[Yellena]

Death domain won't summon undeads, but something way more fun.
After all, death is a neutral thing and giving an undead could cause problems to non evil death domain clerics.
It will summon something dark... and crreepy... but not undeads.

[CragOneEye]

How will Black Guards be effected by this with their undead summons? and how will their Doomknight summons be effected by this change?

[Roketter]

I'm wondering about a sorcerer build and how will this affect it. Can a sorcerer lvl 21 get mummy dust and then take 9 levels of palemaster and still get the stage four summons ?

I'm asking because sorcerers don't get to learn spells from scrolls. Basically the question is, wich palemaster skills do you need to get the final stage undead. Do you need at least 11 levels ?

Just reread mithreas post. This question is irrelevant.

[Hunter548]

While I can't speak for the system as a whole, I'm extremely underwhelmed by the summons I've seen thus far. The Skeleton you get with the base path at level 11 isn't hugely worse than the skeleton chieftain you got under the old necromancy system, it is still worse at actually killing things, and is so much worse than an elemental/dire animal or planar binding thing it isn't even funny. The fact that you can have two isn't Hugely relevant for arcanists either since unless you take Pale Master levels (And this, as always, remains an absolutely terrible decision for anyone who wants to actually be a caster) you can't get a second undead until you're level 15.

On that note, the way you swap your "undead path" could probably use some more clues as to what you're actually supposed to Do. Myself and three other people spent a good hour trying to figure out how to activate it, and couldn't even get a "you're doing it wrong" message as is typical for these sorts of things on Arelith.

Again; I've no clue how the optional "paths" affect the undead usefulness, but the default ones are extremely underwhelming from what I've seen, and hilariously, hideously outmatched by other summoning options.

[Roketter]

Remember you can now use the new familiars to help you out to great extent in battles due to them being resumonable. So 3 undead + your familiar + yourself. I'd say that's a lot.

[Kuma]

Familiars are useless in combat, and not every class has them.

[DestroyerOTN]

*Cough*

On balance, just to keep it clean in the thread of informance (let's not bury the info on the existing/former undead/summons, after all!)

Imma leave this here

[God In Action]

Can Blackguards change their summon stream for use of Create Undead? And will their tier of summon change according to class or character level, or does tier change according to the formula of the standard BG? I.e. Tier 2 at BG level 3, and Tier 3 at BG level 7 (replacing the standard Ghast and Doom Knight).

I have noticed my ghast is replaced by the newly improved version, which actually makes it useful! Although the BG Create Undead class feat appears to only be 1 hour per level.

[Kuma]

If it's the new and improved shiny summons then you should be able to switch types, yeah.

[Tyrantos]

Was caster levels added for Bard now as well, for counting the undead and for the spells they got?

[Mithreas]

Not yet.

[DeathTears]

No snarkyness implied, but I'm just wondering. Will this thread be updated when all of the summons are finished up? I summoned my vrock and it was most certainly not a vrock, in fact it was way cooler (and not a balor), but when I checked here, there is nothing about that change. So yeeeeah.

[God In Action]

You probably summoned the Lawful Evil variant. There are both Devilish and Demonic variants, depending on alignment. (Same states I think though).

[Recite the Sins]

You probably summoned the Osyluth of Peace & Justice. It may not be renamed correctly until you pass a transition, but the description (and appearance) should update immediately.

[FoxyPigeon]

Oh neat, is the Osyluth better than the erinyes? I used to avoid going for the vrock cuz it didn't look as cool, xD but now I may have to reconsider lol.

[God In Action]

Each fiendish summon tier is definitely better than the previous, in terms of simple stats, damage output and durability. However, since each is also a higher level than the previous, each higher summon will draw away more experience per kill than a lower level summon. Mind you, the difference is generally only 2 or 3 points per kill, so nothing that significant.

[DrVindaloo]

Say, to people in the know, is there any benefit that pixie/imp familiars gain from leveling up? I've been tracking it pretty closely, and unlike the rest of the familiars, all their skills seem to be pretty much the same as ever. I was getting all excited for those special level 30 familiar benefits and everything.

[Scurvy Cur]

Pretty sure no familiars level up at all anymore, because the high level familiars occasionally did stupidly strong things (several dozen stun or KD bolts, for example) when paired with a nigh-indestructible level 30 familiar.

[DrVindaloo]

Not even get better skills? That's kind of disappointing, drat. Not nearly as impressive as the first post made it seem, or animal companions.

[Mithreas]

Familiar reworking is something I intend to get to, but the upgrades will only be minor.

[Scurvy Cur]

That's because the familiars mentioned in the original post were stupidly broken, and have since been nerfed for great justice, and the sake of sanity. So you're not going to get the uber mode familiars, and good thing, too. Nobody wants to have to balance around an indestructible familiar that can chain cc any PvE or PvP encounter with approximately two and a half hojillion saveless stun bolts.

Animal companions are still a little stronger than they ought to be, IMO, but at least the familiars got mugged with the nerfing cudgel.

[DrVindaloo]

I don't see how going from overpowered to worthless is a good thing. That's just bad in a different direction.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I don't see how going from overpowered to worthless is a good thing. That's just bad in a different direction.

This is my objection to familiars as they stand now. Familiars are supposed to be capable combatants in tandem with their master's spells, and it's a very common thing- that is not possible past the first few levels of the server here anymore. The interaction of a wizard and their familiar to be better than either could be individually is one of the more enjoyable aspects of a wizard to play (for me, anyway).

They shouldn't be the defacto front-line tank, but a smart wizard and his familiar can certainly manipulate a situation to put all his enemies in range of a spell, placing the familiar in prime position to 'clean up.'

Trying this here means your familiar dies if he gets stabbed by a longsword.

Also, awful things happen to the familiar if the wizard dies, too, just to point out- so it's absolutely in the familiar's interest to protect their master, not just as a one-way street.

The scouting ability is neat, I will admit- but I used my familiar for scouting before the changes, and I did fine without a no-aggro addition.

[Mithreas]

Familiars are supposed to be capable combatants in tandem with their master's spells

Not in PnP.

I've actually always found it a bit weird that familiars are fighters in NWN.

[Scurvy Cur]

I don't see how going from overpowered to worthless is a good thing. That's just bad in a different direction.

They're not entirely worthless. Most of them are a pocket casting of 3-4 castings of a couple of decent buffs each, and some have skills that are useful well into the middle levels.

If you want a fighting summon, cast the appropriate spell for one. Otherwise, you get a fragile magical helper who ought to be sheltered from harm, which as Mith pointed out, has always been the design space of the familiar in PnP: they have niche uses, but none of them are intended to serve as an extra combatant.