Familiar Update Feedback

[Anomandaris]

but now you need to bring a dedicated trapper/locksmith to access them. What has changed?

I've hit DCs for runic chests on every single PC I've played with single digit skill investments (sometimes cross classed even). I'm not sure a dedicated trapper/locksmith was ever needed, nor are they needed now.

Sincra just mathed out a way to get there relatively painlessly.

[Iceborn]

Like many changes, stuff doesn't happen until there's somebody that has the time, the means, and the intent to push for it.
The familiars were left as they were for a long time because other devs had their own projects to tackle, and familiars were a low priority - not to mention, and as evidenced, nerfing the pixie would be met with some community backlash.
Nerfs, however necessary, are largely unpopular, so it's not particularly alluring to update a system that is going to be received negatively.

I can tell you my rationale for pushing for it -
And that is simply that the pixie was too good.
You'd have to shoot yourself in the foot if you wanted to use a pseudodragon, because the option between a funny talking lizard that is only a cosmetic accessory, or a literal pocket rogue? You'd pick the pixie every time unless you wanted to make a statement.

In a RP server, having one mechanical choice that is objectively superior than the others is a design failure, and something that needed to be corrected as a matter of principle.
The consequences that it brings - having to gear up/invest ranks/rely on a friendly rogue - are all acceptable to me.

As an old time mage player, and one that is very fond of familiars, I wanted a system that gave more space for variety and flavor, for thematic choices, rather than those purely mechanical. So this is an agreeable result.
You could also observe "but why is the system not doing X, or also doing Y", and that is a matter of scope - the longer, bigger, and more nuanced a system is to design, it also becomes harder to write, to review, to approve, and to bugtest. I didn't want to code a mechanical monstrosity of a system that would take a small manual to understand, get stuck in review hell for 3 years, or spend the next 5 months bugfixing.

Even with this rather simple system we are seeing a lot of bugs related to language (that I am tackling as I figure why they are happening).

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

On sail:
Denied due to meta implications.
As pointed out above it also becomes the best pick and it is already widely known that sailing requires some pretty heavy tilted choices.

I think this is overblown. On paper, it gives a character plus ten sail which sounds amazing but in practice it only gives a crew +2 or +3 sail, depending on the size of a ship. All it does is make it so wizards who want to sail don't have to go lore master.

"But Babylon, wizards who want to sail will just do both for the epic sail boost!"

Again, not really an issue, as it's still a tiny effect compared to bard songs and other sailing boons like rituals that effect the entire crew and therefore add that total to the sail score, not the sail individual, but if this is a real concern just make them not stack?

I dunno, unless the plan is to start ripping away the full crew effects and you are concerned about what's left over after that, this is not the issue it sounds like on paper.

[AstralUniverse]

Sincra just mathed out a way to get there relatively painlessly.

I wouldnt call it painless but I guess it depends on the class to some degree. It's the least painful to a wizard, sure.

Like many changes, stuff doesn't happen until there's somebody that has the time, the means, and the intent to push for it.
The familiars were left as they were for a long time because other devs had their own projects to tackle, and familiars were a low priority - not to mention, and as evidenced, nerfing the pixie would be met with some community backlash.
Nerfs, however necessary, are largely unpopular, so it's not particularly alluring to update a system that is going to be received negatively.

I can tell you my rationale for pushing for it -
And that is simply that the pixie was too good.
You'd have to shoot yourself in the foot if you wanted to use a pseudodragon, because the option between a funny talking lizard that is only a cosmetic accessory, or a literal pocket rogue? You'd pick the pixie every time unless you wanted to make a statement.

In a RP server, having one mechanical choice that is objectively superior than the others is a design failure, and something that needed to be corrected as a matter of principle.
The consequences that it brings - having to gear up/invest ranks/rely on a friendly rogue - are all acceptable to me.

As an old time mage player, and one that is very fond of familiars, I wanted a system that gave more space for variety and flavor, for thematic choices, rather than those purely mechanical. So this is an agreeable result.
You could also observe "but why is the system not doing X, or also doing Y", and that is a matter of scope - the longer, bigger, and more nuanced a system is to design, it also becomes harder to write, to review, to approve, and to bugtest. I didn't want to code a mechanical monstrosity of a system that would take a small manual to understand, get stuck in review hell for 3 years, or spend the next 5 months bugfixing.

Even with this rather simple system we are seeing a lot of bugs related to language (that I am tackling as I figure why they are happening).

Thanks for the insight.
I do recall reading a while back around when familiars were first given costume skins that it's partially meant to give more options for skins for the pixie, but I can imagine that the devs who do arts and the devs who do this kind of code are different devs with different schedules and desires, so yeah I get that. But with all that said, I still feel like it's yet more detterence from playing Sorcerer (technically all classes with familiars but int casters being hurt the least), and Sorcerer hasnt been that hot for a while now anyway. Whether or not there are or should be plans to give some love to none infi casters with spell slots on their gear, is another story I suppose.

[Ork]

I despise this change with my whole being. We are incentivizing people in having their "pets" out 24/7 with the inherent benefits these familiars grant.

[Security_Blanket]

I'd much rather see thematic characters having their familiars around than only summoning a hand, or a mushroom to OL/DT then poof. Though I'd rather my cat be fluent in Deep Speech instead of Animal, I swear he knows things.

[LivelyParticle]

I despise this change with my whole being. We are incentivizing people in having their "pets" out 24/7 with the inherent benefits these familiars grant.

After mulling it over, I agree that I'm in the 'don't like this change camp'. It makes no sense that suddenly a creature that could do something (in my case squirrel/fey) now has entirely lost any ability at all (a nerf from the skill being 30+ I can understand, but making it entirely disappear doesn't make sense at all), and despite the incentive being for me now to take another familiar for the passive search boost instead to max out my skills, it just feels cheesy to actually do it.

I can't see it changing though, so I'm glad -relevel is a thing.

[Quizmar]

I'm extremely happy that the Pixie was smote into ruin, that thing is such an eyesore and it was annoying seeing literally no other familiar choices being used. I think in my year of playing I've seen maybe 3 or 4 not-pixie forms running around. A few weeks ago my Harb had a snake familiar and people would start talking to it like its a druid friend.
Now I think familiars, or some of the familiars, need natural armor scaling, and at a certain HD level to share buffs with the wizard, and be able to receive buffs like a PC. At epic levels a familiar has like.... AC 17? Instant death, especially if someone would like to use the sneak attack, or natural weapon choices, for the option to have a mini-fighter familiar.
Improved familiar would be an awesome feat. (in 3.5 with improved familiar feat, crunch, and splatbook hell at 7th level you could get a Jaculi familiar with +20 grapple via shared spell, then cast Balor Nimbus for and extra 6D6 per round on top of the creature being forced to grapple, or try to escape, very funny)

[Ruzuke]

Like many changes, stuff doesn't happen until there's somebody that has the time, the means, and the intent to push for it.
The familiars were left as they were for a long time because other devs had their own projects to tackle, and familiars were a low priority - not to mention, and as evidenced, nerfing the pixie would be met with some community backlash.
Nerfs, however necessary, are largely unpopular, so it's not particularly alluring to update a system that is going to be received negatively.

I can tell you my rationale for pushing for it -
And that is simply that the pixie was too good.
You'd have to shoot yourself in the foot if you wanted to use a pseudodragon, because the option between a funny talking lizard that is only a cosmetic accessory, or a literal pocket rogue? You'd pick the pixie every time unless you wanted to make a statement.

In a RP server, having one mechanical choice that is objectively superior than the others is a design failure, and something that needed to be corrected as a matter of principle.
The consequences that it brings - having to gear up/invest ranks/rely on a friendly rogue - are all acceptable to me.

As an old time mage player, and one that is very fond of familiars, I wanted a system that gave more space for variety and flavor, for thematic choices, rather than those purely mechanical. So this is an agreeable result.
You could also observe "but why is the system not doing X, or also doing Y", and that is a matter of scope - the longer, bigger, and more nuanced a system is to design, it also becomes harder to write, to review, to approve, and to bugtest. I didn't want to code a mechanical monstrosity of a system that would take a small manual to understand, get stuck in review hell for 3 years, or spend the next 5 months bugfixing.

Even with this rather simple system we are seeing a lot of bugs related to language (that I am tackling as I figure why they are happening).

Will this design decision apply to lore master?

About 1 in 5 people take it. While not being a dip class for 1 language was cited for familiar for LM as a dip class it provides.

• 3 Bonus Languages.
• Maxed OL/DD and search
• That plus 10 bonus to sail

As mentioned we are a RP server I am unsure everyone becoming a pocket wizard, master of knowledge, and linguistic expert is solved by this change. I do not see 1/5 of the population playing as scholars leaving me to believe it is purely about the mechanics.

[Kalopsia]

Will this design decision apply to lore master?

This is a thread about familiars, so let's stay on topic.

[Security_Blanket]

This is a thread about familiars, so let's stay on topic.

It is on topic, you guys decided to include Loremaster in this, I recommend not including them.

[Iceborn]

Loremaster is its own problem, that we have yet to decide how to address.
For good or ill, LM is now one of the classes that are now capable of taking a familiar, and won't be removed. For the time being, they also won't get any special treatment either - you still need to pair LM with a any of the arcane casters to get the full benefits of it.

[chris a gogo]

I think the change is terrible means I have to put points into open lock and disarm trap and search ,despite not having them as class skills, which means forced relevel and dropping points in something else.

Also the poor sorcerers they already sucked now they are even worse.

As for diversity argument just give all of them OL, DT and search that way you would pick what was character appropriate not what was best.

[Security_Blanket]

Maybe we should just unlock all chests and doors, and disable all traps.

[FurnishMyFlatForCheap]

I think the change is terrible means I have to put points into open lock and disarm trap and search ,despite not having them as class skills, which means forced relevel and dropping points in something else.

Also the poor sorcerers they already sucked now they are even worse.

As for diversity argument just give all of them OL, DT and search that way you would pick what was character appropriate not what was best.

As someone who previously CC’d OL/DT/Search and choose to not have a pixie, I think this change is great you can quite easily open all the chests with CC’d skill investment, and honestly you all need to buck up a wee bit.

[AstralUniverse]

Conveniently tho you left out what CLASS you were doing this on.

[MRFTW]

What DC are we trying to crack, here? Let's presume I'm a level 30 commoner with 8 dex.

Someone is going to have to update me on what bonuses are available for OL/DT that are above and beyond the standard +2 dweomered stuff, so I'll just use +22 as a baseline:

1 rank CC
22 ranks from gear
+5 minimum from dex (4 for GDwarf/Ogre)
+10 from a lockpick
+2 from Dungeon Delver's Cloak instead of dweomered cloak

This should crack DC 60, no?

For Traps:

1 rank CC
22 ranks from gear
+6 minimum from INT (Realistically +7 or 8)
+2 Delver's cloak

That should disarm DC 51 traps but it's not too much to go higher with Ten Foot Pole and such.

Then there's good hope, /pray, bard song, EKD banner and any number of other ways to pump up skill points by a bit. In principle I do think non-rogues should be allowed to open things most of the time but I don't mind them having to do a bit of work for it. Happy to be corrected here as I haven't really had to think about it since /loadout came out.

My minor concern is just how easy climbing is getting. S tier builds are now capable of using the hardest climb spots to very quickly path to good loot. Previously this was a cost of at least some skill point investments. It's probably because of how powerful winged creature is as a feat rather than the familiars, but familiars push it over the edge.

[Security_Blanket]

You need both Search and Disable Trap to disable traps, so having so many familiars give Search and one gives Disable Trap, you're left with the same basic bonus across the board aren't you?

[Anomandaris]

You need both Search and Disable Trap to disable traps, so having so many familiars give Search and one gives Disable Trap, you're left with the same basic bonus across the board aren't you?

No, you do not. You need a sub 200gp consumable or a 3/day active little trinket (which are all over the place) that solves this problem 100% for you. Search is in no way required to deal with traps.

[Security_Blanket]

Ah, right, magic, fair enough, makes it a lot more convenient though, not to mention the extra loot. I wouldn't go the consumable route myself, so for me I guess it would equal out about the same, it's not like Search is a waste, that extra loot adds up.

[FurnishMyFlatForCheap]

Would now be a good time to ask if we could reskin the mephit as a Shepard and the panther as a snake and things of this nature.

It would be cool if most/all of the skin options were available.

[Dreams]

Would now be a good time to ask if we could reskin the mephit as a Shepard and the panther as a snake and things of this nature.

It would be cool if most/all of the skin options were available.

100% agree. Ideally a build your own modular setup for familiars. Select the base abilities, select the desired skill bonus, select the skin. Language remaining tied to skin.

[Juuj]

What could be interesting is if familiars gained a bonus in certain skills based on the master investiment?

Specially hide/ms, as pointed previously in the thread, but spot/listen too.

The familiar base values are far too low for the skills to be of use, and they cannot be buffed any further, save from the Druidic sequencer.

They shouldn’t be, for balance reasons, stellar sneakers but, given investment, able to sneak past people who’ve made zero investment into detection skills.

Ps: Sincra, did you had the chance to consider about the bonus to Perform? You never got back to me . Thanks!

[ElevenOne]

I despise this change with my whole being. We are incentivizing people in having their "pets" out 24/7 with the inherent benefits these familiars grant.

I do loved this update, the pixie was way to good and was basically a must have if your build allowed a familiar and was powerfull to be able to summon a chest opener 24/7 on demand.

I do agree with Ork on one part, about having to have the pet 24/7 outside.

Any chance the familiar bonus is given always, even when the familiar is not out and nearby? Similar to having the familiar small enough to keep in a pocket or flying around giving you information.

This is because:

Are you using an appraise familiar? Be sure to have to summon it every time you are going to sell, adding another task alongside gear shuffling.
Are you using a search / open lock / disarm trap familiar? Now aside having to swap gear to open chest, also add the familiar summoning and management.
Are you using an intimidate familiar? Well, good luck trying to keep it alive nearby to be able to use its bonus.
You would like to "discretely" listen to two other players talking in animal? Really can't do because having your familiar next to you will basically sell you out.
Are you using it for pick pocketing? Seeing around a familiar might lead to suspicious / start true seeing.

The last question also opens for another feedback. Can we get more skin options or open the list?

If you see someone with a Ice Mephit, Snake, Mouse, Seagull, Toad, Yeth Hound or White owl is practically giving you out a character has intentions to raise sleight of hand for some reason.

In the other hand, if you want a specific shape for RP reasons, it may conflict with the bonus they give kinda making it back to the "you must pick a familiar because the bonuses it gives".
In example: let's say a character wants a brown owl, then the build will be locked to having an imp.
Want a chicken? Then you are locked between bluff or search bonus. But if you wanted lore? Well, too bad!

[Iceborn]

I despise this change with my whole being. We are incentivizing people in having their "pets" out 24/7 with the inherent benefits these familiars grant.

Any chance the familiar bonus is given always, even when the familiar is not out and nearby? Similar to having the familiar small enough to keep in a pocket or flying around giving you information.

It might be on the table to give casters 1/3 of their total bonus (in PnP, casters get +3 to a skill).
The bonus is very much balanced around the idea that you have to have the familiar out - that it is conditional rather than a permanent effect - otherwise it would be just a free ESF for all the classes that get the familiar, which is not something we want.