Deep Rogue : Weapon Spec vs SF:SoH

[calisto]

I've been thinking about it for a bit and I do not see why on the recommended Rogue25/Fighter5 build in the compendium, Dirty Fighting is not being maximised.

A rogue with Grip of Night does 1d6+strength+enhance=3,5+5+4=12,5 average damage per on hit on non sneak attacks. (Not counting essences which are blocked in PvP)
Adding 6 damage from Epic Weapon Spec makes it 18,5, still irrelevant damage.

Furthermore, the typical human build has 47Ab, for one round after leaving stealth, 45 afterwards.
So as a Rogue, I see 0 reason to trade hits with anyone. Less damage, less ab, less crit range, less crit multiplier.

It's either Sneak Attacking, or looking for the next way to get the opponent flat footed.

Rogue's damage output is about 80% dependant on Sneak Attack, which implies flat footing. So, I do not see why the recommended build does not maximise the ability to flatfoot through Ditty Fighting to play around the actual source of damage.

By taking SF+ESF Sleight of Hand, Opportunist (+4), and Skirmish Maneuvers, one can obtain +4DC on Dirty Fighting.
That means giving up Epic Weapon Spec + Weapon Spec + Skill Mastery + Slippery Mind.
(I can't check my sheet right now but I'm pretty sure I was able to retain Skill Mastery somehow; Slippery Mind is not very valuable since one can reach 36/37 Will comfortably)

If one pushes SoH to the highest, it is possible to reliably reach 108 self buffed, which means 39DC Dirty Fighting.
Which means that you get a much higher chance of flat footing people and landing your damage with Sneak Attack.

This recommended compendium build can reach 33+14+22+10+6+2+2=89 SoH=34 DC Dirty Fighting. (35 if Enchanted Gloves of Skill are used)

Is there a deliberate reason for choosing 6 flat damage over the enabling of 13d6 Sneak Attack and the AC reduction of flatfooting and the tempo swing of blinding/daze, allowing to squeeze in a silver bell, a gate, a breach...?

Simple math shows that EWS gives a 11% damage increase on non-crit sneak attacks, and a 50% damage increase on non-crit non-sneak. Assuming you can hit someone with 45ab.
Landing a non-crit sneak attack is a 350% damage increase compared to a non-crit non-sneak. And you are hitting on a flatfooted target, which is a significant AC loss for them.

One Sneak Attack deals 13d6=45,5 average damage. This is about 7 times the damage from EWS.
And when you flatfoot someone you get at least a flurry of Sneak Attacks.

(These arguments are neglecting critical hits for the sake of simplicity)

It seems like a no brainer to me.

Am I misunderstanding something ?
Please, sneaky companions, enlighten me.

Addendum :
At this point, if one drops EWS, might as well drop Improved Critical and take Use Poison and sit in Choking Powders recklessly ? Also allowing never getting hit by poisons on 1s.

[Elurion]

Is there a deliberate reason for choosing 6 flat damage over the enabling of 13d6 Sneak Attack and the AC reduction of flatfooting and the tempo swing of blinding/daze, allowing to squeeze in a silver bell, a gate, a breach...?

As far as the fighter multiclass goes, you don't only take it for 6 damage, you take it pre-epic because you get 4 APR and the extra AB. You take weapon specialization and the 5th level on an epic level for EWS because they are 6 pure physical damage, which is basically equivalent to "+2d6 sneaks that you get at all times." The trade off is you sacrifice 3d6 sneak damage (avg 10.5 sneak dmg) for 1 APR, more AB, and 6 straight up damage at all times.

Also, bonus feats. Fighter = FEATS. Say you go pure rogue and take the specialized feats you mentioned for dirty fighting DC. Now, not only do you have to drop 4 feats from the build to fit the SF, ESF, Opportunist, and Skirmish Maneuvers feats you mentioned, you also lose the 3 fighter bonus feats you get from multiclassing fighter. You're now down 7 feats from the suggested build to pump dirty fighting DC to 39 DC.

But you could just throw a Paralytic Caltrops or Flashbang with Experimental Devices. This flatfoots with a 33 DC if you have a 15 DEX mod. You can also corner sneak, or plop down traps. If you're in a group fight, you use your mobility to flank your friends' opponents that they CC for you. You have all those options, and with the 25/5 you still have 7 feats to pump your damage and survivability through saves and HP.

[calisto]

I agree with you on all these points.

My question is not about wether one goes 30 Rogue or 25/5. The question assumes that one is using the 25/5.

It is about sacrificing flatfooting prowess in favor of flat damage which you can basically not use if the enemy is not flat footed in the first place.

[But Will It Blend]

Honestly I'd suggest a 24/6 rogue fighter. I do 5 fighter levels pre-epic, and cap with my 6th fighter level at 29 or 30 for an extra epic combat feat, and then a discipline dump. 24 rogue gives you most of what you care about at 24. You don't really drop a feat.

STR: 11
DEX: 17 (+2)
CON: 12
INT: 16 (+2)
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

Classes: 24 Rogue 6 Fighter
Race: Human
Gifts: +2 DEX, +2 INT, Hiding, SoH, Craft, etc
Alignment:

1 Expertise, Improved Expertise
2
3 SF: UMD (Could swap for something else TBH. Intimidate or SoH would be great here)
F4 +1 DEX, Weapon Focus
F5 Dodge
F6 Blind Fight
F7 Weapon Spec
F8 +1 DEX
9 Improved Critical
10
11
12 +1 DEX, Simple Experimental Device, Toughness
13
14
15 Gruesome Technique, SF: Lore (Or any really. SoH could work here)
16 +1 DEX
17
18 Imp. Evasion, SF: Disc
19
20 +1 DEX, Defensive Roll
21 Armor Skin
22 Crippling Strike
23
24 +1 DEX, Blinding Speed, EWF
25
26 Method: Signature Weapon (If you don't care about the AB here, epic SoH could work too)
27 Epic Prowess
28 +1 DEX, Epic Dodge
29
F30 ESF: Disc, Epic Spec

Skills:
Disable Trap: 25
Discipline: 33
Heal: 33
Hide: 32
Intimidate: 33
Lore: 33
Move Silent: 32
Open Lock: 22
Parry: 30
Sail: 33 (Optional, obviously)
Search: 30
Sleight of Hand: 32
Tumble: 30
UMD: 31
Use Traps: 30

I ran this at one point. I put it together and it's worked wonders for me.

Editing again sorry: I use one handed edged, usually longswords. Avernus' rebuttal if I can get one. Beyond this, because you have Gruesome Technique, you have use poison for free. Having the simple experimental device, and a majority rogue levels makes you immune to your own poison gas. Beyond the bonuses listed, Gruesome technique on your intimidate, causes any choking powder you use to cause fear. And any kill you make to cause fear. It makes PVE exceptional.

Edit again:

Some calculations

AC: 10 (Base) + 5 (Armor) + 14 (DEX) + 6 (Parry) + 4 (Shield) + 2 (Armor Skin) + 4 (Barkskin) + 1 (Mage Armor) + 1 (Dodge) + 1 (Dodge Boots) + 6 (Tumble) + 4 (Haste) = 58 AC with Epic Dodge outside of IE

AB: 21 (Base) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 2 (Epic Weapon Focus) + 1 (Epic Prowess) + 1 (Signature Weapon) + 6 (Weapon + Rogue Weapon buff) + 1 (Aid) + 14 (DEX) = 46 AB outside of IE and without additional buffs, 48 if you're sneaking.

Even in PVP this isn't intended to stand and fight one on one as if it were a fighter. This is intended to use traps. UMD. Scrolls (Albeit not level 9 scrolls), and traps. It's meant to fight like a rogue. You want to understand corner sneaking. You don't want to be the one initiating the initial fight if you can help it. But you can force check a number of different saving throws on people with your poisons, your dirty fighting, and your traps.

This hits far above its weight. Even being a DEX build, even without always sneak attacking. But the fact you can cause rampant fear and dazes from the poison allows you to brutalize enemy squads in PVE too. I have solo leveled this, with the right gear, from level 3 to level 30.

[Elurion]

I agree with you on all these points.

My question is not about wether one goes 30 Rogue or 25/5. The question assumes that one is using the 25/5.

It is about sacrificing flatfooting prowess in favor of flat damage which you can basically not use if the enemy is not flat footed in the first place.

My bad. I assumed, inappropriately, that you were also trying to max rogue levels for the DC. I think you make a valid point.

[calisto]

Bumping the thread as I feel the question was not addressed and I'm honestly interested in relevant opinions.

It comes down to :

+4/5 DC on Dirty Fighting
= More Sand Throw/Pommel Strike =
More flatfooting(= alot more damage) + More tempo

Vs

6 Flat damage

[godhand-]

Bumping the thread as I feel the question was not addressed and I'm honestly interested in relevant opinions.

It comes down to :

+4/5 DC on Dirty Fighting
= More Sand Throw/Pommel Strike =
More flatfooting(= alot more damage) + More tempo

Vs

6 Flat damage

unfortunately thats a gross oversimplification.

its actually VS
6 flat damage, 1AB, 1 APR (More attacks round = more tempo)

Additionally, in Savesmeta arelith, you're going to have a sub 50% success rate even with your increased DCs on dirty fighting.

[Coolguy McMagic]

Bumping the thread as I feel the question was not addressed and I'm honestly interested in relevant opinions.

It comes down to :

+4/5 DC on Dirty Fighting
= More Sand Throw/Pommel Strike =
More flatfooting(= alot more damage) + More tempo

Vs

6 Flat damage

You already stated the advantages of high Dirty Fighting DCs, which are substantial and certainly worth building for. So I will make a case for why one may still prefer the EWS over more SoH feats.

If you can't keep your Dirty Fighting DC above 33+ at least you are probably not interested in focussing on Dirty Fighting at all beyond investing 33 ranks in SoH. So it's not just 6 flat damage, it's also additional skill point investments being freed up on most of your gear. Otherwise you will need a good amount of gear investment to get your DCs high enough to compete.

Saves are admittedly low at the moment, but once the Dweomer-Rework hits we can expect people with interest in PVP to gradually gear better and better saves. Even now, there are several high-save builds against which your Dirty Fighting will almost never hit.

Ranged Rogues will also not be particularly interested in Dirty Fighting and would prefer dealing more damage, since they do not necessarily trade hits with their opponents at all.

There are also builds that are immune to sneak attack, which will negate a lot of the upside of Dirty Fighting.

And then of course in PVE EWS will almost always be better given the widespread immunity to Dirty Fighting and the fact that it's single target on a cooldown. But I don't value that very highly, given how rogues can excel in PVE with traps.

I would ultimately consider both options to be viable, but I don't think it's as clear-cut as you think.

[AstralUniverse]

Any deep rogue should definitely max out DF.

This is why I recently deleted my 25 rogue 5 ib from the wiki because I felt it's out of date and too feat starved to fit in DF maxing.

I think 5 fighter dip is the only way to do it and also dual wield, but I encourage you all to consider 5 vig dip. it gives a lot of extra sneak damage and more importantly free puglist, which saves up on twf feats, has higher base damage with x1.5 str (to partially offset the poor crit potential at least) and even has no -1 ab penalty for twf.

By taking SF+ESF Sleight of Hand, Opportunist (+4), and Skirmish Maneuvers

Definitely these, and also minor gift of lightfingers.