The Removal of (Slave)

[Vargrand]

Reading description is a feature, not an obligation.

[D4wN]

I don't really have an opinion on the slave tag either way. I think when speaking of 'marketability' I don't honestly see Arelith or any NWN server really as 'marketable'. People who play on NWN servers were deliberately looking for the game. It's very old after all and people come play this because they like FR, they like NWN or they want an online RP experience that isn't in an MMO. My point being NWN is a very niche market that attracts specific people to it. People don't leave a server because there are slaves or because there's torture or blood or other gorey or adult themes like that, most people would know that FR will have these themes. They leave a server because of toxic communities and bad experiences in PVP or RP or with DMs or other players. Which perhaps is an issue that should be focused on instead if people are afraid of players leaving.

I believe that slave RP can (when done well) add a lot of narrative to the stories of many involved. Over the past 4 RL years I have been intensely involved with this side of RP both having played a slave and a subsequent Chainbreaker and my experiences through my own storyline and that of others have been amongst some of the most touching, emotional and fulfilling stories I've experienced on Arelith to date.

A one-size fits all solution to just get rid of a system that can and has added much to this server over time is again a classic knee-jerk reaction to a few people giving this system (historically) a bad name because of cringe sexy elven fun times or other things they do that might make others feel uncomfortable. Address the root cause of the problem instead of blowing the whole thing up or look for an alternative system that can add as much to the Chainbreaking/Slavery/Prisoner system or call it indenture servitude if you really want. You have to work your way to freedom still or can be freed early by allies/friends. Same concept, different name. Could even put that in on the surface.

Mind you, there are tons of issues with the current system and with people using it to get portal access or play a surface race in the UD with their buddies. I've definitely had frustrations over the years in terms of how many slaves were basically just acting like outcasts with a slave collar on. Just to name a few. That is a culture that was established (and allowed) over the years that will be hard to root out, but definitely not impossible if there's some effort put into changing that culture.

[mash]

There's an argument to be made that the (Slave) tag makes the suffering of the slave so obvious that this status must be addressed. Descriptions are often overlooked as many people don't read them.

It is impossible to ignore, so characters are forced to think about it, act on it, and to stay true to their alignment. And good characters are clearly expected to hate slavery, and try to be the heroes to end it, or at least lament it. The world clearly communicates that ending slavery against powerful forces that want to keep it up, is Good and the right thing to do. In some instances, your good character can be the one who ends it, but in all instances, your good character must oppose it. I fail to see how that can be disagreeable. It is very clear ooc and ic who the bad guys are, in a way that just ignoring the topic wouldn't because let's face it, the suffering of npc's is very much background noise at best. Arelith's version of the slave system is a living, breathing celebration of the struggle of good characters to abolish it.

Besides, the tag indicates that the character is in a situation where they cannot exercise their full free will, which can be quite essential if they meet Joe Paladin, who is expected to show compassion and help free the poor soul, not go ballistic in their murder spree against all who associate with evil. Because the last thing a slave needs is a good guy giving them crap about their horrible situation.

Tags are not essential, but useful. It's probably better to keep them.

[Rubricae]

i agree. it's not a good look.
mechanical slavery, is not a good look.

[Critique]

I don't think being a prisoner of or indentured to or magically enthralled by another character is a bad thing at all. It's mostly that word "slave" which feels in somewhat poor taste to make light of. I won't editorialize on that, it's complicated.

But they could change the system name to "thrall" (or similar), tweak a tiny bit and still allow slave RP without explicitly calling it slavery. Might even open up other avenues for RP using the system beyond slave and master.

[BlinkDelight]

When most people think of slaves within the Forgotten Realms setting, most think of Thay. Thay being your traditional idea of brutal slavey. I personally think of Muldhorand. Mulhorand being a place with a massive lawful good population and largely good aligned divine pantheon.

The majority of Mulhorand's people were slaves, with roughly equal numbers in the cities and five-to-one slaves to freemen in the countryside, though they only counted as seven-tenths of a person on the census. The slaves were functionally synonymous with the lower class, with free people making up the middle and upper classes. All enslaved people were owned by the land's temples, who then rented them out to customers, and they were bound by an oath to obey the gods and those that the gods placed above them. A curious aspect of this system was that Mulhorandi slaves were surprisingly haughty and considered themselves better than their foreign fellows, as they believed that they were not the property of mortal men but entrusted to the care of the gods themselves, with the temples as the intermediary. The majority of slaves were overseen directly by the temples as they worked on huge temple-owned farms in Mulhorand.

Though most slaves toiled in hardship, many received proper educations and served in the realm's bureaucracies. They were guaranteed humane treatment by law and were generally treated better than slaves in other lands; their working conditions were regularly inspected and any abuse or neglect was considered vandalism towards the temple, and killing a slave was a capital crime. The priesthood of Osiris was responsible for overseeing the welfare of all slaves, and any slave who felt that they were being mistreated was expected to call on them to dispense justice, which usually involved the forfeiture of lands and other assets. It was not uncommon for a master to directly pay their slaves as they returned to temple custody, with it seen as a form of virtuous piety.

Although, after the reformation of Mulhorand in 1487 DR the deities of the Mulhorandi pantheon abolished slavery altogether.

[Marsi]

"But its in the setting!"

This doesn't mean it needs to be an interactive game mechanic. We can still have slavery present in the gameworld, just as non-player elements which are created and reviewed by the team and which respect the values of the server and good taste.

Slavery has been around for years. I haven't seen much come of it besides dom/sub fantasy self-insertion. It's actually so bizarre to me how much game code has been introduced to support it and attempt to make it work.

It's deeply weird and should have stayed in the "anything goes" pre-EE era.

[MrHishprung]

I don’t quite understand the point of this discussion. Slavery was a real historical institution (and still exists today in different forms). Trying to obscure or avoid the topic to protect people who "might get upset" seems to reflect their insecurities more than it genuinely being harmful to the community as a whole. When I first read the post, I couldn’t shake the impression that it’s another example of “being upset on someone else’s behalf,” a thing we often see on social media.

The main difference between the tags <outcast> and <slave> lies in their implications. The <outcast> tag typically leads to PvP or a chase interactions, while the <slave> tag prompts characters to either leave the area or receive assistance. My main issue with descriptive tags is that they often get buried under lengthy character descriptions. It can feel like wading through an essay just to determine if a character is an outcast or who owns a slave. As someone here mentioned, having the tag in the name helps players quickly adjust their character’s attitude accordingly.

The system itself isn’t inherently bad. I see it as a tool for players to use in their storytelling. As @Sincra mentioned, if someone dislikes the long-term nature of the slave collar, they can opt into the "prisoner" option instead. No one is forced (or can be forced) to accept the collar. This is even addressed explicitly in dialogue with the NPC clamper, who ensures both IC and OOC that players understand what they’re agreeing to.

I’d like to see an expansion FOIG method to free themselves. My impression is that the current system is no longer much of a secret IC. Additionally, DMs should monitor cases where traitor-slaves exploit the FOIG system to sell out others who are seeking the same path to freedom or sharing how to achieve it.

If someone has an issue with this system or these types of characters, there are options:

• You’re free to ignore such characters as if they don’t exist, which can be a subtle way of asserting superiority, or you can simply leave the area. However, from what I’ve read, this might not suit OOC preferences.

• You can choose to live in areas where slavery is illegal, rather than walking into someone else’s "playfield" and disrupting their stories.

• You’re also encouraged to create a character who actively fights slavery and aids those in need. There’s even a goddess specifically dedicated to such campaigns.

Lastly, Arelith encourages new players to first create surface-dwelling characters to familiarize themselves with the server’s many fantastic mechanics. Diving straight into the Underdark (UD), which is often more complex (or at least its supposed to be) and then getting burned with how things are represented its on their own.

To summarize: if new players join the server and find themselves disgusted or uncomfortable with the depiction of slavery, then im afraid neither the UD, server or setting is not really for them. They are then free to go to reddit and cry about it, i dont care - but for me, the priority is ensuring that the people I play with are enjoying their characters and stories. If something bothers them, they should send me a message or reach out to a DM for support.

[Vargrand]

To make a parallelism, 5th edition of Dungeons & Dragons got rid of the slavery topic.

We lost Dark Sun setting.

Forgotten Realms, if I recall, never mention it.

We all know the impoverishment of diversification and lore of the current edition, in fact.

Just like "slaughteting people as cattle" could drive away a certain audience, slavery will drive away people.

How many tags, words, mechanics and ugly things should we get rid of?

Fantasy is not all color and friendhsip and "It's fantasy so no problem". Fiction, on a certain degree, is reality.

Slave tag just warns the other players who are you dealing with.

[Darkstorn42]

The existence of the tag is important to know the character is a slave at first glance, and there are mechanical ways to hide it, but the arguments of optics are also quite compelling.

There is a simple fix, since it is merely about optics, change the word (Slave) to (Collared).

Everyone playing the server will know what it means, onlookers from the outside will not. New players will learn, and the examined state will remain the same.

[Perplexia]

There is a simple fix, since it is merely about optics, change the word (Slave) to (Collared).

i don't know if the optics of tailed tiefling ladies with collars is any better for the server

[Critique]

I don’t quite understand the point of this discussion. Slavery was a real historical institution (and still exists today in different forms).

That it exists today is one reason it's poor taste. I don't think it's played with the gravity actual slavery would entail, at least most of the time. Arelith's version of slavery rarely approaches the horror a real slave would go through... It's more like you're someone's personal assistant. Part of this is we're all players and it's tough to be that cruel, especially since we don't know who's on the other side of the screen. I'm not saying there's never an appropriately callous master but that should be most of them not the exception. I almost think you'd need a DM-run game or at least NPC masters to treat the subject appropriately.

But the system itself is okay as there are many reasons someone could be collared. Just drop the hot-button word and call it something else and as a bonus you can now have indentured servants and prisoners with restricted freedom and many other opportunities beyond master and slave.

[Rubricae]

Last night I logged on to my pretend elf game and found out the fantasy world has slaves. My anxiety got so bad that I called my therapist, but she wouldn't answer the phone at 3AM.

This setting feels unsafe and crypto-fascist. The minute that Teletubbies MMO drops I am so out of here.

what are you talking about

[direfish]

The struggle is real. Waldo seems to be sarcastic, but he is unwittingly spot on.

Let's not forget this is a 13+ server, so I have no idea why we still have vague mature themes, unacceptable moral conflicts, triggering words, and even realistic blood.

[Richrd]

The struggle is real. Waldo seems to be sarcastic, but he is unwittingly spot on.

Let's not forget this is a 13+ server, so I have no idea why we still have vague mature themes, unacceptable moral conflicts, triggering words, and even realistic blood.

Yes, please ignore the entire Underdark and the evil flesh-crafts going on there.
And Dis.
And-

You get the point. Arelith is pseudo-PG13. Wonder when that will just get dropped, it's a bit silly.

[direfish]

Yes, please ignore the entire Underdark and the evil flesh-crafts going on there.
And Dis.
And-

You get the point. Arelith is pseudo-PG13. Wonder when that will just get dropped, it's a bit silly.

You're wrong. It is explicitly stated in the server rules that this is a T-rated server, so you are supposed to roleplay accordingly to not disturb the potentially present children and infantile adults.

[Inordinate]

The actual suggestion of dropping the tag to be examine-only is actually kind of a good one imho

the rest of the discussion around its palatability in the modern climate is silly, it didn't work the first time people tried to pearl clutch about it. it's not hard to explain that it's a roleplay environment of a different world with different values, quit pretending that twitter is waiting to hate mob you for writing in a setting that doesn't conform to modern day sensibilities

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I don't know what story can be told via slavery that can't be told via being a prisoner of war, etc.

"Being taken prisoner" can be just as horrific as "being taken as a slave" without the connotation of the word. I've never seen a slave story that was so evocative and inspiring and moving that really showed me just how powerful slave narratives can be that could not have been simply retitled a prisoner or captive narrative.

[PowerWord Rage]

I'd rather the whole system be yote.

Use prisoner status instead.

"But that's easy to escape"
Exactly.
It avoids the E-RP tie in, it avoids the ramifications in mechanical elements and cultural, even if I think the cultural side is often overstated given this is a fantasy game rife with slavery and other complexity.
Importantly, it makes it voluntary.
It's not voluntary to do a FOIG questline or pay 2 million to free a character.
That's quite the opposite. That's mandatory with effort to escape.

It's a half baked idea that's never been expanded on in a meaningful way.
Trying to give it meaning via mechanical negatives is denied while it simultaneously allows you to get portals, even if your collar originates from a surface location, something we can infact tell.
I already had to downgrade the buffs it got given to a large extent as there were cases of individuals using the escaped slave item to become a slave, get the ac or ab buff, then free themself instantly.
It's either used to leverage a gain or ends up weird vibes.

Prisoner status +1

[direfish]

I don't know what story can be told via slavery that can't be told via being a prisoner of war, etc.

"Being taken prisoner" can be just as horrific as "being taken as a slave" without the connotation of the word. I've never seen a slave story that was so evocative and inspiring and moving that really showed me just how powerful slave narratives can be that could not have been simply retitled a prisoner or captive narrative.

This is probably the most offensive take I've seen in this thread yet.
But even if we take it at face value, if slavery is just as horrific as imprisonment how is imprisonment any more acceptable for T-rated roleplay?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Perhaps I should have specified on Arelith.

My point is that "slave roleplay" never approaches what slave literature or history is, nor can it, nor should it, and I've never seen anyone do anything so remarkable and memorable that really justifies its particular existence.

It's a carry over from antiquated worldbuilding. But also, the existence of something like slavery in a game like this has been baffling.

What we do on Arelith could be rebranded as just imprisonment and we'd be better for it because it would be indistinguishable from what we already do without having to deal with the word 'slave.'

[ReverentBlade]

My suggestion:

(Branded)

Have it apply to slaves, outcasts, and dread pirates. Have Examine reveal the specifics as usual. Looks a little less cringe on screen and genericizes them a bit for a little better blending in town. Now you have to Examine and at least glance at the description to see if your PC cares about that sort of thing.

[Algol]

We should also use "unaliving" instead of "killing" to be more considerate of peoples sensibilities.

[silverpheonix]

We should also use "unaliving" instead of "killing" to be more considerate of peoples sensibilities.

This is not helpful.

[direfish]

We should also use "unaliving" instead of "killing" to be more considerate of peoples sensibilities.

Oh my god, this opens another massive can of worms but it's such an important conversation!

This is not helpful.

Wow, really. Please do not snidely depreciate other people's trigger words just based on your own trigger pattern.