Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

[Richrd]

I unironically love how deranged this thread is.

On topic: Remove Loremaster. Restore balance. Make build-maxers cry in despair.

Wizards are the way they are because of cuts to their power.

I'd disagree. Wizards are not the way they are because of cuts to their power.
In fact: I believe any direct nerfs that did happen to them over the years were justified.

What makes Wizard on Arelith a class I'd never touch is that it has nothing going for it. Exactly as OP said, amongst other things.
It is dreadful how nearly everything a wizard does is done better by other classes. What exactly do they have going that no other pure-caster has? +3 against dispels?

Summons? Wack.
Damage? Wack.

Loremaster existing is funny because while it did indeed solve a massive issue that issue was created artificially by Arelith itself.
And now it enables martials to do more than before. Scrolls didn't allow you to take a single feat and be able to scry or yoink people. Loremaster does. Again, taking away from not just wizard but all casters. It's wack.

And yeah, I called the thread deranged because of some of the funny posts here that were going on. Especially the big meme pic. And yes, this is indeed a dead horse of a topic and people are just repeating the same old points that could be summed up as either "I agree" or "I disagree".

Actually? Go make this a poll on the Discord, see what people really think, get the broad public's opinion. "IS WIZARD BIG SUCC?" Not just the few of us nutjobs here who bother posting on the forum.

Anyways. Note how I ended up saying very little of substance and just ended up having to repeat what other people already said. Because again; this is a dead horse topic. Wizard bad.

Only the RP is good. And even a large chunk of that was so brutally ripped away from surface wizards with the rework of the Arcane Tower. Big sad.

[Security_Blanket]

Looking at the latest player counts, Sorcerer makes up 1.9% of level 30s and Assassin makes up 2%. . . Assassin, lol. You have to make a request and have it approved to play an Assassin, and there's more Assassin's than Sorcerers? That's pretty damn funny, lol.

[Ferretmancy]

When the Summon nerfs hit over a Year ago IG admitted to Wizards/Sorcs being in a terrible place PvE and that they were looking into it. Nothing happened so far aside from some minor tweaks to CL to allow for more dips but it doesn't solve any of the issues with the Class.
The entire Slots system is based around having a few, high-impact Spells to turn the tide/cause a lot of damage before running out of gas. But that doesn't happen on Arelith with its insane stat bloats in PvE to keep up with the insane Martial damage. Mobs need to be high HP to compete and have high AC to not lose even that high amount of HP in a matter of two-three rounds.

Spell damage wasn't adjusted in any way to counteract that increase in HP however. Even when failing Saves the dmg is just ... ok. A single crit on a 13-20/x3 Martial will do more than that Spell ever will and they get 4+ shots per round on that whereas you get 2 shots. Assuming ofcourse you have enough casts prepared but even then you will likely run out of those ok dmg spells after at most two rounds. You have to slot the mandatory Buffs after all.
Introducing Infini-casters was the worst decision ever made for Slot casters. The entire Slot system wasn't ment to deal with this volume of Encounters nor were the Spells ment to deal with this amount of HP and any attempts to remedy that will inadvertently make Infini-casters busted beyond believe.

Not to mention that all the utility provided by the Casters is readily available in forms of a myriad consumables... the Server has designed Slot Casters into a corner.

[Anomandaris]

The hit dice disparity is very odd. I have no idea why some of these mechanical disparities have been allowed to progress so far out of synch with other classes.

Invoker -Elementalist / Hemomancer is D6
Cleric is D8
Favored Soul is D8
Palemaster is D6
Bard & Harper Mage are D6
Warlock is D6
Shaman is D8

Sorc & Wizard: Sitting alone at D4 ?????

There's no reason wiz/sorc should be this low compared to other casters. Especially when consistent updates have shifted the value of wiz/sorc into other classes and inficasters. Hemo/Elementalist/Warlock D6 while dexlock blaster puts out crazy ranged DPS + other perks, Hemo gets great durability and "inficasting," fear immunity, eschew components, autoquicken1 etc.

Easy stopgap that won't break the game balance is make wiz/sorc d6 and give ESF concentration for free at epic caster break point. Really doesn't give them more damage, just helps them actually use their kit and not get run over like a speed bump. Then you can consider how to balance their actual value in combat via spell overhaul or other broader balance tweaks which is a much bigger lift.

[But Will It Blend]

Honestly the problem with yet more spell overhauls, unless it's literally the entire system which would take a very, very long time to do properly. Is that it'd also give more power to the classes that already exist. Which isn't inherently bad, but unless it's very specific wizard spells nobody else can get access to for any reason... it won't really fix the problem.

The classes themselves need fixing.

[Security_Blanket]

Every time the argument of giving flat bonus DC to casters is thought of infinite casters benefitting from it, but why can't that bonus to DC be restricted to Sorcerer and Wizards?

[Anomandaris]

I'm still missing the irrational fear of DC save or suck effects as if it's somehow uniquely unfun to experience when ppl are hitting crits or sneaks for the #s they are with 5-7 APR. What's the difference? You have to be close to the person? Ok.. chase me around in circles and the moment I stop to cast a spell you bonk me for 300-400 damage.

Or get eldritch blasted from across the visible range of a server by eldritch spear dexlock through concealment for 100+ dmg 2x a round interrupting every cast. Or blasted by archers with 50+ AB, so on and so on. I don't mind that these things exist, everything should have teeth, my issue is for some reason people want to uniquely gimp the wiz/sorc or caster potential as if it's somehow egregious to pop someone in one round using magic as opposed to beating them senseless with a halberd. Or the idea that executing a perfect 2-3 round wombo combo is "bad for server health." Eating a Balgrans and one rounded, or TS pot into IKD and one rounded is the same thing. Most of the server PvP runs on alpha strike and crazy high burst damage.

One simple solution idea others have raised is reduce DURATION off CC but increase the RELIABILITY of it working. People still have immunities that need breaching, can reapply with wands/scrolls/potions and also have pray. If I timestop, mords, and cast a Hold Person, and the person prays, kites out and reapplies mink blank, and I re-breach, and do it again, that should be fair play.

Bottom line there seems to be a bias in the server design saying "this build destroying you in one round this way is ok, but this other build destroying you in one round this other way is not ok." There are a lot of options to start to chip away at the clear disparity with incremental changes that don't require big overhauls, but for some reason there appears to be resistance to do so. That said I am grateful for recent the Wiz CL change, but sorc probably could have used it too, and it really should be just the start.

[PowerWord Rage]

I don't know what's the solution for making Wizard / Sorcerer successful because in the first place, Wizard / Sorcerer are meant to be overpowered, usually for DND game.

Taking BG2 for example, everyone can agree that you can literally solo the entire game as a wiz/sorc but not if you play a fighter/paladin/rogue (maybe i'm wrong but even if you can, it's probably super hard to achieve)
As for BG3, i mean, even ability and skills belong to spell right? For the fight against Raphael, he has super wtf aoe and it's actually those spells that hurt more than his physical attacks.

In a nutshell, Wiz / Sorc are either going overpowered or, like now, a little awkward. The moment you go about balancing their spells, they are literally countered in every sense.
Then again, if you go and reduce CC duration but makes the spell hit easier or something, you're literally turning this game in MMORPG style.

Not sure what's the solution really. But one thing that i probably or everyone can agree, Wizards get plenty of good RP cookies. Divination / Necromancy / Conjurations. Especially divination with their scrying and extended true sight and the RItuals that most probably didn't actually go about

[But Will It Blend]

Posted an example of what could be done. I'm not saying this is necessarily 'good' but. I dislike making complaints about things without at least trying to take a stab at making it better.

viewtopic.php?t=47747

[But Will It Blend]

I somehow forgot that wizards also have a tax on casting any good spells while so many other classes don't need to bother paying literal gold for their damage or buffs.

[-XXX-]

Thing is, the issue of DC spells has been indirectly addressed with item properties on Arelith but the "tax" wiz/sorc has to pay for access to these spells still very much remains:

• 1d4 HD
• low BAB
• concentration checks
• limited spell castings

^ these all are redundant weaknesses representing a tradeoff for strengths that no longer exist.
An argument for "flavor", "immerson" and "realism" could be made when it comes to keeping these around, but then it's hard not to see a double standard here after pointing at something like mundane CL.

To make things even worse, there are other spellcasting classes available that have been made both exempt from one or more "tax" points listed above while being simply better at the stuff wiz/sorc is trying to do.

[Security_Blanket]

I personally can't stand spell components, 28 Wizards and Sorcerers should at least get Eschew Material. We also have weapons for +5 Sure Striking, you don't even need a heavy investment of Fighter or another class, you just need the right weapon proficiency and it's like that pesky Premonition/Stoneskin was never there. You might also give them some skills so everyone of them isn't forced to dip, an Intelligence-based class with only a handful of class skills to invest in.

[But Will It Blend]

I understand invokers also need to pay components (At least in theory until Eschew in certain cases). But even then it doesn't feel as bad because focus isn't really that hard to manage when you get used to it. So you can still be devastating with lower level spells that you keep using. Support spells cost more, sure. But wizards aren't casting much more of them.

I am level 15 on the current group I'm leveling with. Even just the saves on many monsters are such already that there is an 80% chance they will succeed on any saving throw, so I'll need to get +6 more INT to maybe hit a threshold where I hit them 65% of the time? If I'm lucky? And if they aren't I guess my spells are just bad. Meanwhile the warlock doesn't care they can just spam spells until they get the effect.

And our cleric can just cast 2 spells and hit as hard as a weaponmaster while having all the power of a cleric support wise. lol.

[CptnCandyass]

there's no reason to play wizard or sorcerer because every time a new class gets introduce it's just another form of power creep and nobody wants to acknowledge it by buffing wiz+sorc+FS+Shaman to match them. There is zero mechanical or RP reason to play them because any of the Cha casters can have a similar background as a Sorcerer and the only thing fun about wizard is wild mage.

[LordofThunder]

I just feel like this will always be a problem since, let's just admit it, nobody after a while playing Arelith will actually choose anything exclusively for RP. The server is just too big and DMs are not so present to compensate the toll sorcerers and wizards pay in their build for the sake of RP. If you decide to make a wizard or sorcerer knowing that they're not a great build and expect it pays off due to RP benefits, you are honestly just setting yourself up for frustration.

Mobs and dungeons are made considering the power level of build-maxers. Some of us are bad at math.

[PowerWord Rage]

I wouldn't say there's no reason to play Wizard when you've 9.5% and standing at 7th spot, above Spellsword ( if the statistics are accurate which i believe they certainly are )

idk, spells are extremely difficult to adjust. It either goes super strong or just, weak.
And Wizard /must/ never be on infinite cast since that will totally falls into mmorpg category. Ofc, that's just how i felt personally since I feel that having spellbooks, memorizing and changing it, feels more alive within a DND game than not.

[Security_Blanket]

What about if we gave them more feats? Give Wizard/Sorcerer the Ranger treatment, Ranger gets a bonus feat every five levels that continues into epic levels, alongside the standard bonus epic feat every three levels. Maybe tweak it to come out to a few less feats for Sorcerer than Wizard, I don't think that would be game breaking. People are given incentive to play these classes, they get a boost and more build options, builders have an option to spend those couple extra feats on a Great Intelligence/Charisma for 1 DC.

[But Will It Blend]

Sorceror's should have at least an additional 2 spell picks per spell level across their entire leveling career with there now being a pile of spells. Also a bloodline system of some kind. Even if it's just.

At level 2: Gain these skill bonuses thematic to the background
At level 5: Gain a minor feat
Level 10: Gain another feat, more skills
Level 15: Gain a feat
Level 20: Gain a cool ability
Level 25: Gain a really nice feat
Level 28: Gain some kind of a special capstone

All throughout they gain some thematic spells that fit that they add to their spellbook.

Having it so that each sorcerer picks one specific bloodline, and gives them some additional progression.

[Kalthariam]

I mean, my sorcerer was a 21 Sorc 9 RDD, couldn't even go 20/10 to get the full half dragon blood experience because despite RDD giving -some- spell casting scaling now, I can't take epic spells unless I'm 21 Sorcerer so... Shrugs

Twas my attempt at emulating a "Dragon Blood" sorcerer.

People do play things for Flavor, I just was fully under the keen awareness that I was downright useless in most casts. I recently rolled that character to a fun little DM RP event.

That being said.. Wizards have it a little easier than sorcerers due to getting more access to spells and not being shoehorned into having to go into one specific build to actually do anything.

[But Will It Blend]

The abjuration specialist wizard not only gets greater dispelling later (Level 15 VS level 10) than magic domain clerics. It's also on a longer cooldown.

It's good to know that without a drawback, a simple pick of a domain outclasses what a specialist does and pays for. This probably shouldn't be the case.

[Security_Blanket]

The abjuration specialist wizard not only gets greater dispelling later (Level 15 VS level 10) than magic domain clerics. It's also on a longer cooldown.

It's good to know that without a drawback, a simple pick of a domain outclasses what a specialist does and pays for. This probably shouldn't be the case.

As the player of a abjuration specialist, this really baffles me. I'm all for a cleric of Mystra having some arcane flair to their spellbooks, but a specialist wizard should outclass the other in that regard. Which further pushes the argument of "why is it ok for other classes but not wizard/sorcerer?" It's been said ad nauseum how everything else progressed but those classes stayed the same, then infinite casters were introduced and that was the final nail in the coffin.

It's not Loremaster, it's not even the other classes getting a boost, it's the items. ALL of the items, the potions, the wands/rods, the scrolls, the random misc items with one use of Mords or Greater Restoration, it's all the gear, from your +4 weapon to your overly enchanted slippers. How can you possibly fix this problem without a drastic solution? Are all the items going to be removed? Or are Wizards and Sorcerers going to get a buff to justify their existence beyond "they're fun to RP." That same reasoning can be made for the commoner class, only they're not considered a classic addition to any D&D adventuring party.

Part of the issue I would say is somethings that are just considered normal at this point and would be hard to remove because of that. For one, nerf WoF already, I don't get the reasoning behind this one. A scroll that no save blinds and dismisses hostile summons, again, no save. Every PvP server I've played on dealt with that spell right off the bat, it's so OP even my wizard stocks up on scrolls if he needs to deal with summons, even though he can drop some nice DC Dismissal or Banishment spells, why would he ever bother when a scroll is more effective. This makes RP sense how?

Or Divine Grace/Dark Blessing, a dip of 3 levels in a class can net you 15+ to universal saves, but Monks getting Wisdom AC was such a concern. I just don't get the reasoning behind some of these decisions. Wizard/Sorcerer can't get a bonus to DC because not everyone is fully geared to protect themselves? Death Ward wands, Clarity Potions, Lesser Spell Breach Wands, -pray, just how much handholding do the non-casters need before they finally feel safe to deal with a caster.

[Critique]

I don't think it's just that they're fun to RP- I think a lot of players are NWN vets and wizards are their comfort zone because it used to be a great class on Arelith and was or still is on whatever other servers they played and they know the class inside and out. There's a non-insignificant number of players here who aren't into chasing the latest meta and don't care so much about the constant modernization of the game. They just want the RP experience and to try to recapture something they enjoyed 10+ years ago, and I have the feeling wizards are a popular class among them.

Wizards are still easy to level and have a lot of RP potential so if they just want to be present in the game it's a comfortable way to do so, and doesn't require learning how to make something new and a little wonky or non-intuitive work.

[Anomandaris]

Don’t get me wrong, Wiz and sorc can work, but that doesn’t mean they’re remotely balanced. Divine builds are generally the strongest across the board right now by a large margin. Saves, utility, damage output, AC, they have it all. Well built Martials in general have also left casters far behind.

For example, why do we have things throwing out DC 40+ MUNDANE save effects (and even 90+ fear DC) repeatedly? It’s not 10 min long CC, but it is fight defining when ppl are critting for 200 ish dmg. Some dish out arcane spell failure too, which should be extremely limited not handed out like candy. Then we say a DC 42 spell effect that has to get through saves bolstered by protection from spells and spellcraft bonuses to counter is bad for the server or OP? Can I get a button to press on cooldown that cuts everyone’s APR around me in half and reduces their saves? That’s more or less what we’ve giving martials.

It feels like there is a bias from a design perspective given how much power is loaded into certain things, while glaring weaknesses have existed and continue to persist. The gap is not only substantial, and not shrinking, it’s continuing to expand with ongoing changes (e.g. dweomercrafting update). It’s very odd.

I’m curious if there measures to avoid conflicts of interest. How many checks and “opposing” viewpoints are present in mechanical changes like releasing a new class that outperforms its peers? The only other thing I can think of is there’s a greater “passion/interest” to work on one thing vs. another, which makes sense, and would result in some things being left to “sit on the shelf and gather dust” while the others get refined and improved (it is a volunteer based gig after all). If not one of these two things, how did we get here? There’s too much experience and game knowledge floating around to not notice the glaring imbalances.

[But Will It Blend]

I don't think it's just that they're fun to RP- I think a lot of players are NWN vets and wizards are their comfort zone because it used to be a great class on Arelith and was or still is on whatever other servers they played and they know the class inside and out. There's a non-insignificant number of players here who aren't into chasing the latest meta and don't care so much about the constant modernization of the game. They just want the RP experience and to try to recapture something they enjoyed 10+ years ago, and I have the feeling wizards are a popular class among them.

Wizards are still easy to level and have a lot of RP potential so if they just want to be present in the game it's a comfortable way to do so, and doesn't require learning how to make something new and a little wonky or non-intuitive work.

Here's the thing. I agree with you entirely. But at the same time you shouldn't feel like everything you do is worse because you picked wizard or sorcerer. You should be able to have both, like so many other classes.

[perseid]

I've seen plenty of builds that fail saves handily.

But I agree. Specialist wizard is in a bad spot. There's a few specific builds and combos that are still quite strong, but the fun in wizard has crashed hard since the summon and pixie nerfs.

I'm honestly not that sad for specialist but I'm also in the group who thinks it was a mistake and should be given the axe. It complicates wizard design while simultaneously pushing the class farther from being true to the source material. This despite there having been good alternatives in third edition that could have been persued like master specialist.

It's even more bizarre because we occasionally get niche updates to things like deities supposedly because of lore considerations and we even have announcements when players are considered to be roleplaying certain topics wrong. But then the norm when it comes to class content for a long time, as embodied by the implementation of specialist wizard, has been to just treat the setting as an afterthought at best.