Great Ability Change

[RedGiant]

I've got multiple characters down from the great ability change, none of them melee characters / intended recipients of this change. Please reconsider. As a side note, I can fix almost all of them with a cap of III instead of II.

As one example, nothing even terribly fancy, but a plain old undying warlock needs 18 CON and 24 CHA to unlock its powers. My current main is a Drow with CON malus. This required a great ability pump of III to even work. Now....it does not.
Stating: CON 14, CHA 18,
Levelled: CON 14+4= [18], CHA 18+3=21+GCIII=[24].

[In Sorrow We Trust]

This change will not be reverted. We apologize if this causes problems for existing builds. It's necessary in the longer scope of things due to changes we're looking at in the future.

Can you try switching out your feats so that you take 2 feats of one attribute, 1 of another? Move one of your con level-up points to Charisma, take Great Con 1, Great Cha 2?

[RedGiant]

I can probably fix my main like that, who is multi-pact, because "RedGiant specializes in bad builds."

But, much of my more sanely built stable is not fixable. Consider another single-pact warlock who needs to hit 18 Con by 20 to take their epic pact, which cannot be delayed later, because every other feat you need is gated behind epic pact or 24 CHA.

If this if the way we're going for balance, that is fine, but I think we need to look at stat requirements across the board. All the 24+ stat requirements should likely be lowered to 20 or so. Im using warlock here as the example, but there are plenty of other insane stat requirements across the classes.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

yep, we can absolutely look at stat requirements for anything left behind. might be nice to have a list of what's no longer possible.

[Anomandaris]

Is there a reason we couldn't enable Great Int and Cha for caster classes? I'm not sure +1 DC for 2x epic feats given the save situation is a concern given saves.

It seems the rationale was primarily limiting AB & AC (possibly HP stacking), this is great. In that case, Str, Con, and Dex would make sense. I can also see Cha being an issue if enabled broad spectrum due to divine builds. A +1 damage bonus on Cha blasterlock isn't an issue either given how gross the damage output already is, if that needs to be changed it can be dial in another way.

The only thing Int stacking might synergize with is Assassin, which is pretty niche. This "inadvertently" nerfed some wizard builds that really didn't really need said limitation.

[RedGiant]

yep, we can absolutely look at stat requirements for anything left behind. might be nice to have a list of what's no longer possible.

I'll let others focus on particular builds that were disabled. I will instead attempt to tackle the even more fundamental problem of high stat requirements, because this affects almost anyone playing with a malus race.

I found another ready example in my vault: a Duergar hemomancer. Again, this is a CHA malus race, but do we want to completely disable such combos? I would argue "no". To be functional, a hemomancer requires 22 Hard Charisma for Epic Spells and 26 Hard Charima for optimal Red Harvests. Here again, I could just baaarely get there with Great Charisma III, and this is throwing everything at just the primary stat on a malus race, not even trying to do anything fancy. If you want to even allow for Duergar hemomancers, then, you have to lower ability requirements.

So, here is a list of feats/abilities I think we need to look at lowering in a post-great-ability-era-Arelith. Many of these are simply not reachable on any sort of race with a malus.
-Thundering Rege 23+Str
-Blinding Speed 25+Dex
-Epic Dodge 25+Dex
-Self Concealment 30+ Dex
-Perfect Health 25+Con
-Plant Shape 25+Wis
-Song of the Heart 25+Cha
-Great Smiting 25+Cha
-Divine Champion 24+Cha
-Invoker Abilities 26+Cha
-Warlock Abilities 24+Cha, 24+Str, 24+Dex, 18+Con
Discussion: Team Arelith has done some great work on this already, with Planar Turning, Mighty Rage, and Epic Damage Reduction. Recommend all of these be reduced to about 20 at a maximum to facilitate the new environment.

There are also some concerning high-stat synergies required for class functionality.
Divine Champion - Str/Dex (AB), Con (Divine Wrath), Cha (Smite/Passives)
Totem Druid /Ranger- Wis (Spells/PS), Con (Animal Companion)
Warlock- Str, Dex (Melee/Blast), Con (Undying), Cha (Spells, Pact Functionality, Abilities)
Discussion: I am not sure this is a comprehensive list, but I would add to this any class that has a 20+ requirement for full class functionality in a non-primary stat. These are simply hard to meet without the great ability feats and sometimes outright impossible on a malus race. The Totem bit stands aside of this as an anomaly where you are requiring con to use on a class ability on a minimum -4 con malus class, which could be end up being -6 or more on a con malused race. I've recommended ditching this before and tying it to something like hard wisdom.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Is there a reason we couldn't enable Great Int and Cha for caster classes? I'm not sure +1 DC for 2x epic feats given the save situation is a concern given saves.

It seems the rationale was primarily limiting AB & AC (possibly HP stacking), this is great. In that case, Str, Con, and Dex would make sense. I can also see Cha being an issue if enabled broad spectrum due to divine builds. A +1 damage bonus on Cha blasterlock isn't an issue either given how gross the damage output already is, if that needs to be changed it can be dial in another way.

The only thing Int stacking might synergize with is Assassin, which is pretty niche. This "inadvertently" nerfed some wizard builds that really didn't really need said limitation.

because we're preparing to fix spells/dcs/hopefully vancian casters too, so we don't want any outliers.

and it's consistent.

[Anomandaris]

Is there a reason we couldn't enable Great Int and Cha for caster classes? I'm not sure +1 DC for 2x epic feats given the save situation is a concern given saves.

It seems the rationale was primarily limiting AB & AC (possibly HP stacking), this is great. In that case, Str, Con, and Dex would make sense. I can also see Cha being an issue if enabled broad spectrum due to divine builds. A +1 damage bonus on Cha blasterlock isn't an issue either given how gross the damage output already is, if that needs to be changed it can be dial in another way.

The only thing Int stacking might synergize with is Assassin, which is pretty niche. This "inadvertently" nerfed some wizard builds that really didn't really need said limitation.

because we're preparing to fix spells/dcs/hopefully vancian casters too, so we don't want any outliers.

and it's consistent.

Color me excited, and thanks for the reply! I'm just really hoping it stays DND rooted and doesn't go full MMO CD ability mode. FWIW as an avid caster player for years, I don't think the spellbook is bad or it needs an "overhaul." Just adding a lil dmg here and there and shorter CC duration for more reliable CC. Concentration rolls and d4 is a much bigger issue IMO. The spellbook has great options, especially if saves are dialed back. I make it through dungeons fine w/ fluxes, even though it's a little tedious. More slots would basically solve the "endurance" without major overhaul.

[MRFTW]

Warlock is the one class especially that desperately needs the ability requirements lowered.

Ranger has some fun but bad builds that stack CON so the pet is good - that could be looked at because it is not at all viable but very very fun.

Really want to hear more about RedGiant's bad builds tbh

[RedGiant]

Warlock is the one class especially that desperately needs the ability requirements lowered.

Ranger has some fun but bad builds that stack CON so the pet is good - that could be looked at because it is not at all viable but very very fun.

Really want to hear more about RedGiant's bad builds tbh

List of concerns updated above. Please add any I've missed.

As for RedGiant's bad builds:
How about the triple-pact "All-Caster, No-Blaster" Warlock? (30 War)
Or the Fist Father? (27 Cleric/3 Vig)
Or the Cavalier SS? (26 SS/4 Cav)
I can do this aaaalll day.

[AstralUniverse]

To the dev team:

-Thundering Rege 23+Str
-Blinding Speed 25+Dex
-Epic Dodge 25+Dex
-Self Concealment 30+ Dex
-Perfect Health 25+Con
-Plant Shape 25+Wis
-Song of the Heart 25+Cha
-Great Smiting 25+Cha
-Divine Champion 24+Cha
-Invoker Abilities 26+Cha
-Warlock Abilities 24+Cha, 24+Str, 24+Dex, 18+Con

None of these things (except I guess self concealment?) is made particularly harder to reach in the absence of great stat3 and upwards. This is because if you take a close look, not just at the attribute-gate of these abilities but also at the builds who use them you'll quickly notice that these builds couldnt really afford great stat 3+ to begin with. What barbarian takes great str 3 or higher when they need epic focus, prowess and potentially 3 rage feats (and then probably either armor skin or EDR too). What dexer can really fit great dex 3+ when they also need all of the mandatory combat feats, esf discipline, blinding speed and in many cases also epic dodge. A bard reaching song of the heart literally cant take great stat 3 because of other soth requirements. Undying warlock (except if it's RedGiant's drow. my condolences for getting nuked for playing a con class as a drow. I feel you bro) does not usually need great stat 3 because it can have great stat 2 into con and cha by rearranging stat progression in most cases who arent a race with -2 con or cha. Same for Cot honestly, just rearranging str and cha progression can result in needing great stat 2 + great stat 1, or 10 con + toughness instead of 12 con. And I could go on and on.

If you're going to consider lowering stat gates to any of these abilities, do it for the right reasons, and take into account the builds who actually use these abilities and their epic feat selection in first place. Most if not all of them never needed great-stat 3 in first place for anything more than nailing 1 more ab which has nothing to do with these abilities.

[MRFTW]

How about the triple-pact "All-Caster, No-Blaster" Warlock? (30 War)

Did this one myself on a forest gnome, I think my personal favourite was the halfling 20 monk / 5 EKD / 5 IB with dual-wield Katars

[RedGiant]

said some stuff

There is nothing lost with lowering stat requirements across the board as was done with rage feats, planar turning, and epic damage resistance. This will only open builds to malus races. As your own points concede, there is nothing you can jam on many of the "optimized" builds, because every single point and feat has its place. You will also almost inevitably be playing a human, a horc, a helf, or some such.

[Security_Blanket]

I could see lowering most of those by one point just because they're sitting at awkward, odd numbers. 24 Dex for Epic Dodge or 24 Wis for Plant Shape, as it is people are incentivized to go that extra point anyways for AC/DC/AB.

[AstralUniverse]

said some stuff

There is nothing lost with lowering stat requirements across the board as was done with rage feats, planar turning, and epic damage resistance. This will only open builds to malus races. As your own points concede, there is nothing you can jam on many of the "optimized" builds, because every single point and feat has its place. You will also almost inevitably be playing a human, a horc, a helf, or some such.

You do realize that if I need, for example, only 18 or 16 for EDR 3 suddenly it would be a lot easier to reach for all builds and not just malus races right?

[Ork]

down with the status quo! let's get weird with it

[RedGiant]

You do realize that if I need, for example, only 18 or 16 for EDR 3 suddenly it would be a lot easier to reach for all builds and not just malus races right?

This is not a good faith argument, as EDR is an example of an already lowered requirement. Its current, custom Arelith requirement is 19 Con, reachable by malused races. No one is suggesting lowering this further. I am suggesting the EDR treatment as a template for feats/class features requiring 24-26+ stats.

[PowerWord Rage]

-Thundering Rege 23+Str
-Blinding Speed 25+Dex
-Epic Dodge 25+Dex
-Self Concealment 30+ Dex
-Perfect Health 25+Con
-Plant Shape 25+Wis
-Song of the Heart 25+Cha
-Great Smiting 25+Cha
-Divine Champion 24+Cha
-Invoker Abilities 26+Cha
-Warlock Abilities 24+Cha, 24+Str, 24+Dex, 18+Con

All those above have nothing to do with Great Ability III though.
I've been through extensive build and even Great Ability II is rarely needed for epic dodge, blinding speed or thundering rage.

[RedGiant]

All those above have nothing to do with Great Ability III though.
I've been through extensive build and even Great Ability II is rarely needed for epic dodge, blinding speed or thundering rage.

Thundering rage had its requirements lowered from 25+ Str to 23+ Str. Note that the requirements were lowered almost across the board on a class whose functionality requires 24 Str and at least 18-20 Con. This is, in fact, the template I suggest for other classes and abilities.

Epic Dodge and Blinding Speed are less the issue, since they coincide with an AB granting stat, but even in this case, if you lower the requirement slightly, you will just end up enabling a lower-AB, less optimal version. If you worry about those points being converted to strength or something, rest assured this was already possible. I've rocked an Epic Dodger with strength as a secondary stat. But, again, I don't think there is substantial harm in dropping these stats to barbarian feat levels, which neatly knocked two points of the top of most of their requirements.

This enables malused races to participate. Keep in mind, some people will choose to play lore-accurate, less optimal builds. Laugh at this all you want, but the setting is against you. Take as an example the Ghostwise Halfling, whose lore-accurate favored class is barbarian. This is a str malused race on Arelith. Yet the Ghostwise Hin I most respected was a full on macahuitl-wielding barbarian savage. If you only play the build guide, you are missing out on the setting.

[PowerWord Rage]

Yeah, i get the above but trust me though, lowering those requirements above, isn't about allowing people to play less optimal build but allowing more OP build to be possible.

Do not be surprised if you lower req epic dodge or blinding feat, you'll soon find a barbarian with epic dodge. How is it possible with defensive roll and improved evasion? Depending on how much is lowered...it might just come through and true
Do not be surprised if you lower req for warlock 24cha requirement and you'll find blaster with epic mastery III + agonizing blast or previously, the warlock tier 6 undead with epic mastery III + agonizing blast(If +24cha isn't present).
I mean, i'll not go about song of the heart since it was already mentioned in other thread
And, plant shape etc, I know that lowering req simply allows more build to be centered around these lowered scores. It does not make people play less optimal build but actually allow more OP build.

Yea, that's what i believe.

Edit: I actually will like RedGiant's post about less optimal build and playing what we like alot. Like, it's nice and it's great.
But...the first thought that comes to my mind when Requirement is lowered, the power curve actually went up instead of down.

[Iceborn]

^

I'm a great enjoyer of Red Giant's mutant builds, and of characters that generally try to go against their nature. I like my ogre rogues and my gnoll wizards, and I generally applaud anybody that tries to do something unique and play a build that is clearly suboptimal (but still viable enough to be fun).

That said, we don't want to facilitate those builds.
Some races are not meant to be able to reach the requirements of epic feats, not without gimping themselves. Characters are not-so-subtly encouraged (but never forced) to take the path of least resistance because that's what makes sense for them, that's the normal and intended racial path they have and what is, socially speaking, expected of them.
Epic feats are another incentive to that design.

Some of the warlock choices that the great ability feats enabled were also unintended.

What we can do is enable more bloodlines for the races that are meant to walk those paths. It's unlikely we'll have some int-based bloodline for gnolls (random example, if there's a canon int-based gnoll subrace I'm eating my socks), but a cha-based one that enables warlocks/blackguards/divine champions may be considered and approved. The suggestion box is open if there's an obvious choice we are missing, though as always, any change has to go a review process (and be carried by a dev with both the time and energy to go through the effort).

[But Will It Blend]

^

I'm a great enjoyer of Red Giant's mutant builds, and of characters that generally try to go against their nature. I like my ogre rogues and my gnoll wizards, and I generally applaud anybody that tries to do something unique and play a build that is clearly suboptimal (but still viable enough to be fun).

That said, we don't want to facilitate those builds.
Some races are not meant to be able to reach the requirements of epic feats, not without gimping themselves. Characters are not-so-subtly encouraged (but never forced) to take the path of least resistance because that's what makes sense for them, that's the normal and intended racial path they have and what is, socially speaking, expected of them.
Epic feats are another incentive to that design.

Some of the warlock choices that the great ability feats enabled were also unintended.

What we can do is enable more bloodlines for the races that are meant to walk those paths. It's unlikely we'll have some int-based bloodline for gnolls (random example, if there's a canon int-based gnoll subrace I'm eating my socks), but a cha-based one that enables warlocks/blackguards/divine champions may be considered and approved. The suggestion box is open if there's an obvious choice we are missing, though as always, any change has to go a review process (and be carried by a dev with both the time and energy to go through the effort).

The answer is Flinds. For Gnoll subraces that are higher INT/CHA based.