Harper / Zhentarim PrC need updating / streamlined.

[magick in theory and practice]

These classes have odd, disconnected requirements (e.g., scattered skills, irrelevant feats) that clash with their archetypes and newer base classes, hindering roleplay and mechanics. Rewards feel like "rebates" for buy-ins, delaying engagement.

I propose streamlined requirements: 5 ranks in a spy skill (Leadership, Intimidate, Bluff, Perform), 1 relevant feat (also as a pool but relative to the archetype the PrC counts as), and PrCs counting as represented classes for features, focusing on roleplay over mechanical payoffs. The rewards for the buy ins should a class+ where you are just a sneaky (socially, not always actually) fighter, mage, or whatever.

I would love to see the 5 levels count towards progress where relevant in my class - for example were I to be a warlock harper/naugadar I could still get my "capstone feats", or a paladin taking paragon was just treated as taking more paladin, and any caster that was 20 (class) / 5 (casting prc) was considered an epic caster for feat qualifications. Cleric paths don't apply where it makes sense fear speaker/priest, or things like evangelist w/ master harper.

Anyway, thats all I have to say.

[Dreams]

I wish I could play one of whatever type without having to entirely build around it. There are a whole bunch of classes that you just can't really work together with them.

I want to be a druid harper, or a spellsword zhent. With the way CLs/capstone abilities work, anything a little creative starts to get extremely harmed by missing out on things.

[Second Breakfast]

Agreed with the OP. I don’t even know how you could play, say, a warlock who is a part of the Zhentarim without finding yourself comically underpowered at 30. There’s no reason why it shouldn’t be possible.

[AstralUniverse]

Some classes benefit from these zhent/harper prc more than others. Personally when I played any prc class that has weird requirements who dont really help my build, I consider them a tax and decide whether or not the tax is worth it. The requirements are also quite thematic for all of these classes from ic perspective so there's at least that, which is nice.

[silverpheonix]

Some of the bonus languages seem very redundant for the classes. Like you'd already have that language from any base class that makes sense to go into that Harper or Zhent class.

[Kythana]

Honestly, I'm not really a fan of these classes in general.

In some cases, they enable particularly powerful builds, or unique combinations that aren't possible with any other class. And in other cases, like some have said, they don't synergize at all, and are functionally useless.

Additionally, because of their unique interactions, it allows build metagaming to determine who is a harper/zhent. Some of it is more subtle like the CL interactions, and some of it is more obvious like Create Harper Item literally showing in the combat log.

Personally, I'd rather see all the harper/zhent classes combined into some generic 'spy' or 'operative' class, and have the unique harper/zhent abilities just tied to the token.

[AstralUniverse]

Personally, I'd rather see all the harper/zhent classes combined into some generic 'spy' or 'operative' class, and have the unique harper/zhent abilities just tied to the token.

I can see the logic here and agree with it to some degree. However it would involve some back-pedaling in technology. You already have separate classes with separate skill sets (note that if you combine them into a single class, that class is going to have one set of qualifying requirements, and even if you separate it into inner paths, they will all have the same skills set). I dont think we should backtrack into one class for this reason. We could rename all of them 'spy' with subnames perhaps... spy mage, spy cleric, spy whatever, unlock all of them to everyone and just keep the actual harper/zhent guilds tied to an application token. That would be nice, sure. Most importantly it would take care of the meta-gaming issue because that way you could perhaps meta-game that someone has Spy X class but you can no longer meta-game the harper/zhent membership.

Another issue that may occur in that scenario tho... those classes are actually pretty strong within some build contexts. And if they're unlocked we'll see a lot of them everywhere. It isnt a big balance issue right now because the application gate keeps them all checked. Players are less keen on roflstomping everyone in pvp when they're harper/zhent because they want to maintain low profile. If the class is unlocked for everyone those stakes go away. Also, DMs can control how many of the applications to approve so we're not flooded. If that goes away, we'll have a balance issue 100% because they wont just be strong, they'll also have higher play rate than loremaster I'm pretty sure, and no risk of exposure tied to the whole deal.

[Richrd]

I'd just like to see the app-only part of those classes being gone.

Really cool when the realization hits you that there's some potentially very powerful classes that are app-locked and barred from public. Access? Only if some absolute stranger online deems your application worthy enough.

This is a game, not the job market.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'd actually be in favor of separating the class from the zhentarim/hapers and making it its own thing. Joining these organizations should be more organic and the culmination of game play, not something you plan for on a character build.

[Apothys]

Personally I like the look of the way they are set up and while applying for a PRC can be heartbreaking when rejected there's always cool feedback and the opportunity to reapply . For me these classes are very rp heavy so having a few odd skills here and there depending on what you choose is no big failure, I would simply lean into it and maybe use a relevel to semi optimize with the new found training and skills provided by whatever organization you apply. Remember that Harper/Zhentarim have allies too, you don't need to be one to aid there endeavors and machinations, finding them however can lead to its own RP.

[Snake2512]

I'd just like to see the app-only part of those classes being gone.

Really cool when the realization hits you that there's some potentially very powerful classes that are app-locked and barred from public. Access? Only if some absolute stranger online deems your application worthy enough.

This is a game, not the job market.

I disagree

I in fact think the classes should be more heavily policed and you should be banned from playing alts while you have an active token

Though more to the topic, Arelith power creep is incredibly real and with things like Harbinger dropping for evil classes it really puts classes like Zhentarim Enforcer to shame

*raises my hand to conceal the part of my character sheet that says im playing that class
no dont look at that

[Dreams]

I'd just like to see the app-only part of those classes being gone.

Really cool when the realization hits you that there's some potentially very powerful classes that are app-locked and barred from public. Access? Only if some absolute stranger online deems your application worthy enough.

This is a game, not the job market.

I think it’s good that Harper/Zhent have a little oversight. I even think things should be more strict! It ensures a level of quality and fairness from the people playing them. You’d want someone in one of these organisations to be operating with more than just death penalties on a big ego with a greatsword and hide in plain sight.

[Security_Blanket]

The first thought that comes to mind is that if you're so concerned about making the best build then Zhent/Harper is not for you, you're looking at it for the wrong reasons. This is precisely why it needs to be locked behind an application.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i just wish the zhentarim were more like they are supposed to be

arelith's take on the zhentarim always bothered me

[Amnesy]

I am of the mind that the app should remain for the factions, in some cases some more objectives could be added to them.
That being said I would prefer to not have classes associated with those factions.

[Kythana]

I don't really want to talk too much about applications here, but they're really not as effective as many might think. As someone who played a Harper recently, the bar is much lower than I was expecting. I do not think they are particularly good tools at enforcing quality.

That being said, I don't really think it's healthy long term balance for these classes to remain as they are. It encourages the very nasty Arelith culture of 'keep things hidden.' Since Harper/Zhents aren't really available to most people, it's easy to discover some pretty strong options and keep to yourself.

Something like Paladin/Harper Priest/X, for example, allows for some silly combinations on an already fairly strong class. If Paladin ever needs to be revamped or changed for whatever reason, Harper Priest needs to be taken into consideration. Coupling things together like so tightly leads to difficulties in balance.

The first thought that comes to mind is that if you're so concerned about making the best build then Zhent/Harper is not for you, you're looking at it for the wrong reasons. This is precisely why it needs to be locked behind an application.

This is a primary reason why it shouldn't be tied to a class. If there's no/little mechanical benefit to playing a Harper/Zhent, then the type of player you're attracting is almost exclusively going to be focused on roleplay rather than mechanics.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

i just wish the zhentarim were more like they are supposed to be

arelith's take on the zhentarim always bothered me

I've not played a Zhentarim character, what about Arelith's take on it is different from the mainland factions?

[Security_Blanket]

If there's no/little mechanical benefit to playing a Harper/Zhent, then the type of player you're attracting is almost exclusively going to be focused on roleplay rather than mechanics.

I agree, I just see it as a good thing and not a bad thing. The main point of this class is the RP, not everyone that makes certain class choices enforces it in their RP at all. For these classes you don't have that same leeway, if you go betraying your faction then you risk permadeath.

[I Don~t Feel Like Dancing]

These PrCs don't really need to exist.

There is an air of mystique around them because of their secrecy, but having played Harpers recently enough to know that the faction was imploding over an internal library war over who was the designated book organizer I can say with certainty the Arelith depiction is not the "good guy spies" faction that the write-ups lead us to believe, and the screening process for recruitment has done nothing to prevent this sort of decay.

If they stick around they should get streamlined, but these communities need some actual monitoring beyond applicant screening to keep them in line with what the PrCs are supposed to be and it needs to be handled by someone who understands that the organization's moral core is what sets it apart from the Moonstars, a splinter organization that caters a little more to the "ends justify the means" mentality that is often brought to the Arelith Harpers.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i just wish the zhentarim were more like they are supposed to be

arelith's take on the zhentarim always bothered me

I've not played a Zhentarim character, what about Arelith's take on it is different from the mainland factions?

they would normally rat out or betray their fellow members in order to rank up. it is kind of expected.

also they are not this secretive, either. but i get why that is probably necessary

[Ferretmancy]

To be fair, the wiki entry EXPLICITLY states in the Class descriptions that they advance in the organisation by virtue of betrayal or taking others successes for themselves.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

i just wish the zhentarim were more like they are supposed to be

arelith's take on the zhentarim always bothered me

This seems like a good time for my biannual repeat statement:

"It should have been the Cult of the Dragon".

Its literally the perfect time for them in history too, but alas.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

To be fair, the wiki entry EXPLICITLY states in the Class descriptions that they advance in the organisation by virtue of betrayal or taking others successes for themselves.

yes but it isnt really possible because of how the zhentarim is run on arelith

too unified.

[Subtext]

Lorewise, the Zhentarim shouldn't even operate in Arelith at the time Arelith is set in.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

that too