Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Feedback relating to the Classes, Spells and General Mechanics of Arelith.


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Tikin
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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Tikin »

Hey there!

I am in favor of these changes, which I believe could bring solutions to the casters issues (particularly in a context where the Team, not unlike me, seems eager to find ways that Some casters can work without summons). It may take time to adjust parameters, but it seems a good approach imo.
It tries to tackle many things I don't like in this system, which, like others said better than I could, is not appropriated to a video game. I'm all for trying to keep the taste of Dnd magic, in terms of shape and notions behind the magic. But really honestly, even in pnp the save/dc system is not that good :D

Of all concerns expressed in this thread, I only share one (I honestly believe the other concerns are clearly treated in the OP): about how it will interact with PVE and all the work it will require. My doubt comes from the fact that right now a lot of PVE situations are already quite unbalanced. and while, ofc, it’s best to treat base mechanic before reviewing the various specific situations of environment, the mechanical change will not spare this review work, which to me seems quite a large one.
Perhaps, like someone said in his post, the Team as a whole is indeed aware of the whole task, in which case I’d say I feel entirely enthusiastic about the road ahead! :)

In any case, thanks for taking feedback, and thanks for all the work! :heart:

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Shadowy Reality »

Risenholm implements something very similar to this.

For most crowd control spells you get a save every round with a stacking +4 bonus. This means that DCs can be much higher than saves, as typically you will break free after a couple of rounds.

These boni remain for few rounds. So say if you break free of a Hold Person spell after 3 rounds (+12 Will bonus), and you get hit with another Hold Person (or similar effects), you would still have that +12 bonus for a few more rounds.

People are arguing this would be bad for casters, and they are right (to some extent, it allows other changes). But this allows rebalancing in other places. You can suddenly cap Cha to saves in divine classes, you can remove +uni saves from gear, you can remove save bonus from spellcraft (yay another free skill for everyone). It standardizes saves to class combos and stats, with few ways to boost them further, making it easier to balance DCs around. Right now you have to account for someone with a Low save and that does not have spellcraft, cha to saves, or uni saves on gear, and someone who has all of those, the range in saves becomes massive, you can be dealing with someone with +7 Will or someone with +50.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by AstralUniverse »

Meh there's just too much damage in this game for people to have the time to roll tenacity if they find themselves locked flat-footed for 6 seconds in a team fight (and we should be looking mostly at team fight kind of combat obviously, when it comes to pvp).

If we lower saves, it would be concerningly good for casters, tenacity or not.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by aplethoraof »

Some of these points do look OK. However:

(1) CHA to Saves need to be curtailed and locked to the class that grants them. Probably at a rate that equals to a +5 cap.
(2) Spellcraft needs to be hard ranks only. Soft ranks is just silly (imagine if tumble was soft ranks for AC lmao).
(3) Uni saves should not be in dwemor. Come the new dwemor system, most people's saves will jump dramatically thanks to uni saves on gear.
(4) This is more tentative, but prayer should heal OR get rid of effects. Not both.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Xerah »

How much of this whole idea is related to the large save increase that is expected to come with the dwemor rework? Are these two ideas tied together? Is this holding up the dwemor?

It would make a lot of sense if these were to be a package deal.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Heroic Spirit »

I’m going to chime in briefly to clear up some concerns:

PVE will remain unchanged.
NPCs will not gain access to Tenacity.
NPCs will still be vulnerable to save-or-die effects.

Nothing in this proposal is set in stone — everything’s open to adjustment based on the feedback we get here.

This is a standalone update and doesn’t affect the dweomer rework.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Dreams »

Things shouldn't act differently for NPCs/PCs.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Scurvy Cur »

Astral has hit my concern dead on.

While the idea is conceptually interesting, I don’t think per round saving throw rolls will meaningfully reduce the amount of saving throws you’ll need to build to be survivable. Being hard cc’d for 1-2 rounds in a running fight is a death sentence, and has been for all 19 years I’ve been on this server, and it’s only gotten worse.

Even if the caster doesn’t have a +1, conduits or a warlock summon can burn a flat footed character down in 1-2 rounds. Gate might take a little longer, but it’s still not going to be a slow kill. Some of the undead streams have utterly devastating dps potential.

What balances all of these out in a PvP standpoint is that their AB tends to be mediocre, and players can quickly screenwipe (most of) them with wof. If a player gets crowd controlled, they’ll become flat footed (which will cost most people between 12 and 22 AC depending on their build) and unable to press the screenwipe button.

For those who remember it, before we changed spellcraft, mind fog was a favorite go-to, not just because it softened targets up for more aggressive willsave disables, but because a lot of characters with the automatic -1d6 will save penalty would fail against the 1 round daze, since mindfog did not respect bonuses to saves vs spells (spellcraft and a couple other sources). A lot of skilled wizard players got quite good at killing targets in that one round mind fog daze window with their conduits or with vampire stream undead, backed up by a couple casts of direct damage spells.

To say nothing of group fights, in which any alert source of damage will be keeping their eyes peeled for targets that get disabled. As a serial melee build player, one of my highest all time sources of pvp kills has been friendly SoV casts. The stun on that is 2 rounds, but it checks everyone in it once per round for a fairly long time. Put enough people in there without mind spell immunity and someone will eventually fail a save. That 2 round disable is more than enough to close the kill if they can’t pray out of it.

I’ll also point out that we had to severely nerf the original launch of wild mage, because it had 2-3 saveless cc spells in its surge table. These were very short duration spells (1d4 rounds). They were also guaranteed single target kills.

Finally, Arelith has seen a proliferation of abilities that are semi-infinite or on cooldown which have a primary effect (such as damage or a difficult to remove debuff) and a hard cc “rider” with a dc usually in the mid to high 30s, and a short (usually 1-3 round) duration. Think a lot of the new spells that hemo gets, a bunch of warlock features, and all the harbinger buttons. These are currently balanced around the understanding that the saves will be failed only rarely on a very bad roll, so the fact that they’re available infinitely or near infinitely isn’t too problematic. That changes if people start regularly dropping saves against these abilities.

Tl;dr version: even 1-2 rounds of hard cc is an intolerable outcome. The amount of saves required to be survivable in a fight will not go down with the introduction of Tenacity. These spells will still be very binary.

If you’re looking for a way to make save or lose spells less binary, I’d suggest looking at the other end of the range, and adding a debuff or damage effect to most of these spells if they are cast by a slot limited caster that is using a slot to cast it (so no sequencers or spellbound wands) which applies when the save is made, but not exceeded by some margin. For example, the hold line of spells could come with an ab or dexterity penalty that applies when the saving throw is made, but made by less than 10 (e.g., -10 AB, reduced by 1 per point by which the saving throw dc was exceeded, or -5 dex, reduced by 1 per 2 points the saving throw dc was exceeded).

Last edited by Scurvy Cur on Mon Mar 24, 2025 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Xerah
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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Xerah »

It would have an effect on PVE though, if NPCs are spam casting tentacle spells, hold spells or death spells etc. Normally, you'd ward against them, but that doesn't seem like your 3 round freedom would be much help when every pack is casting Evards or destruction.

It is already the case that several effects are different for PVP and PVE; it's a fine approach.

Heroic Spirit wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 7:56 pm

This is a standalone update and doesn’t affect the dweomer rework.

My main concern then is that things are going to change a lot when that dweomer comes out and then again when this comes out. Saves go way up for a time then come back down as you reign in all the saves bonus. Should probably put some consideration into that.

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Anomandaris
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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Anomandaris »

I guess I'm curious what are the specific "problems" we're trying to solve with such a huge rework? What are the goals of the implementation? There are no doubt a ton of issues with the current state of balance/mechanics, but I'm wondering if such a big set of changes is the most impactful, efficient, or least "disruptive" way to address them.

Best practice for any product dev effort is identify problem(s), propose solutions, and then validate the fitment of said solutions to the problem. We kind of started with a set of solutions here first, which is generally considered backwards and not nearly as conducive to effective use of dev/engineering time.

Example Problem Sets:

  • Sorc/Wiz balance is off compared to other casters (or martials)
  • Caster Balance in general is off compared to martials
  • DC Casting is not "reliable" so no one uses a lot of the spells in the module
  • Saves are too high but we're nervous to bring them down due to potential balance impact
  • People hate getting cc'd for long durations or dying to a spell, so we want to limit the "negative experiences" associated with "save or suck" spells
  • We believe we need to adding "new and exciting" mechanics to keep things fresh attract/retain playerbase
  • We believe immunities are too polarizing and strong so we want to mitigate their efectiveness
  • We think PvP outcomes are too "swingy" and want to minimize the volatility of pvp engagements

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but just a few examples. Some of these align, some might be mutually exclusive, some of them if prioritized over the others inspire a vastly different set of solutions. Some are "bigger" problems for a broader set of players than the others.

I for one do not think the goal/problem of "making DC casting a mainstay mechanical/build path" needs to be pursued. I do think caster and wiz/sorc balance is in a bad state. I also can see how those who do get CC'd are not fond of the duration and definitive nature of such events. You could add a couple changes in one week that would address the latter couple of issues, and avoid a several month, controversial re-work to do the first.

So what are we as a server, from the dev/admin perspective actually optimizing for? IMO that's where this feedback/discussion should start.

Edit: Having custom interactions for PvP vs. NPCs seems really odd and not a consistent, setting sensible thing to do. This is a RP server and I understand that suspension of belief is a thing, but it's odd that one cohort of things would be treated 100% differently regarding an entire set of mechanics because they’re NPCs. I don't think this is a design direction we should go at all.

Last edited by Anomandaris on Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by RedGiant »

So, here is the meta that troubles me and no this is not a joke. I hate getting killed by swords. I find this even more "unfun" than save or suck. There is a well-known paladin on the server who crits for 300+ and...he crits /all/ the time. This DPS isn't even that far outside of the norm. For example, if they are on a horse, I /know/ I'm getting one-shotted. If by some miracle I am not, I know I can't disengage to recover, or counterplay, because: /they are on a horse./

In short, I would really like to see some of the Arelith building creativity work on bringing mundane DPS down . Like way down. Set a cap on it, like you did with IGMS. Bam. Easy. Done.

Here are my two cents on the current proposal:
1) Enable Tenacity – Ongoing Saving Throw Rolls [I could get behind this, but I question the necessity of the scaling part.]
2) Adjusting Save-or-Die Mechanics [All spells, especially higher-level ones, should do /something/. Scurvy's idea isn't terrible.]
3) Adjusting Save & Spell DC Balance [I just want spells to do something. I'm agnostic how this is accomplished.]
4) Removing Absolute Immunities [I don't necessarily like this. Counter exists for freedom via breach. Let's keep it simple!]

-My big fear with the last bit is we get an increasingly arcane (no pun intended) system of actions and counters (e.g. Stop Heart vs. Sustain]. I'd prefer leaving the well-known things in place and adding to/adjusting the breach list as appropriate, since this method is literally available to all characters who can muster a soft lore skill of about 20.
-Also, I would like to see Improved Evasion go before breachable immunities. This feat alone disables about 1/3 of spells.

Last edited by RedGiant on Mon Mar 24, 2025 8:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Shadowy Reality »

Scurvy Cur wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 8:09 pm

Astral has hit my concern dead on.

While the idea is conceptually interesting, I don’t think per round saving throw rolls will meaningfully reduce the amount of saving throws you’ll need to build to be survivable. Being hard cc’d for 1-2 rounds in a running fight is a death sentence, and has been for all 19 years I’ve been on this server, and it’s only gotten worse.

This wrong argument to be making then, if it makes no difference then what is the drawback of actually implementing this?

One (hopefully good) change at a time. We could very well look at damage output next and try to get it lower, that way that 1-2 rounds is actually a pretty big difference vs 20 rounds of cc. It would also be a big difference being cc'd 1 round vs 5 rounds, as if damage output is lower it may be the difference between dying or surviving, and look at that, suddenly gearing saves is actually meaningful again, without being entirely binary.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Scurvy Cur »

Shadowy Reality wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 8:43 pm
Scurvy Cur wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 8:09 pm

Astral has hit my concern dead on.

While the idea is conceptually interesting, I don’t think per round saving throw rolls will meaningfully reduce the amount of saving throws you’ll need to build to be survivable. Being hard cc’d for 1-2 rounds in a running fight is a death sentence, and has been for all 19 years I’ve been on this server, and it’s only gotten worse.

This wrong argument to be making then, if it makes no difference then what is the drawback of actually implementing this?

One (hopefully good) change at a time. We could very well look at damage output next and try to get it lower, that way that 1-2 rounds is actually a pretty big difference vs 20 rounds of cc. It would also be a big difference being cc'd 1 round vs 5 rounds, as if damage output is lower it may be the difference between dying or surviving, and look at that, suddenly gearing saves is actually meaningful again, without being entirely binary.

It would probably be good for you to read the entire original post. It tends to help with understanding what’s going on.

Notably, points 3 and 4:

3) Adjusting Save & Spell DC Balance
With Tenacity in place, characters have a fairer chance to break out of CC effects rather than being permanently locked down.
Lower overall saving throw bonuses or increase spell DCs to reflect this change.
Since saving throws are rerolled every round, excessively high saves are no longer necessary for CC defense.
Even being locked down for a single round is still impactful, allowing casters time to reposition or follow up with another spell.

4) Removing Absolute Immunities (Reworking Freedom of Movement)
Absolute immunities should be phased out in favor of active counterplay.
Example: Freedom of Movement
Instead of making a character permanently immune to movement-impairing effects, it should function similarly to Remove Fear:
Instantly removes all movement-hindering effects.
Prevents new movement-impairing effects for 3 rounds.
Grants a long-term Reflex save bonus vs. movement effects.
This keeps counterplay options without completely negating an entire class of debuffs.

The proposal includes an express reduction in saving throws and removal of immunities. The supposed reason this is “ok” is that cc duration will be overall reduced by sequential and increasing rolls. The exact wording used is “Since saving throws are rerolled every round, excessively high saves are no longer necessary for CC defense.” But since rerolling the saving throw every round doesn’t actually make failing in the first place less of a death sentence, the premise behind point 3 (that high saves will be less needed) is untrue.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Kalthariam »

I don't personally like this, it seems like it's just giving martials more ways to get out of the few things that threaten them.

Casters are already in absolutely garbage conditions right now, I fear this will only make it worse.

Dancing
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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Dancing »

Noted above, but I’ll say that my main concerns are:
-two man hit squad of cc specialist and dps specialist
-inconsistency between how spells interact in pve/pvp
-whole new systems to learn that contradict nwn/arelith mechanical knowledge. I personally do not want to relearn every aspect pvp and specific counter to specific spells/abilities.
-sitting in mechanical limbo for a long period of time while major bugs or mechanical imbalances go through the process of being noticed, reported, brainstormed and fixed.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by aplethoraof »

Dancing wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 9:35 pm

Noted above, but I’ll say that my main concerns are:
-two man hit squad of cc specialist and dps specialist
-inconsistency between how spells interact in pve/pvp
-whole new systems to learn that contradict nwn/arelith mechanical knowledge. I personally do not want to relearn every aspect pvp and specific counter to specific spells/abilities.
-sitting in mechanical limbo for a long period of time while major bugs or mechanical imbalances go through the process of being noticed, reported, brainstormed and fixed.

Honestly, I wasn't even thinking about this but I'll agree with this too. Inconsistency between PvE and PvP is a really FUBARed way to go about things and just makes the server more bloated with confusing mechanical intricacies.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by -XXX- »

Just between WoF, saves & spell disruption checks there is a lot of counterplay to both DC spells & pets.

CCing somebody to maul them with pets might become a more viable strategy, but what's wrong with that?
It actually is a valid strategy that should have avenues for successful execution. ATM there are simply too many safeguards in place against it.

"1 round of CC = death sentence" might be true with a WM or Defiler your face but what's a Wizard gonna do? IGMS your face?

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by mandoa »

I'm...generally opposed to this.

The changes don't seem to address any of the actual problems they just seem to shift where the problem in the process will occur, as several have more or less already pointed out.

Overhauling a fundamental basic aspect of the game experience, on a game that many play for the sheer nostalgia of the game and its structure, also seems generally ill advised. I certainly don't want to have to sit around figuring out how to completely restructure builds and gearing for characters to make them survivable under a new system.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by PowerWord Rage »

-XXX- wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 10:18 pm

"1 round of CC = death sentence" might be true with a WM or Defiler your face but what's a Wizard gonna do? IGMS your face?

This got me laughing hard when i pictured the scene. IGMS my face? Really? :lol:

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by AstralUniverse »

-XXX- wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 10:18 pm

"1 round of CC = death sentence" might be true with a WM or Defiler your face but what's a Wizard gonna do? IGMS your face?

First of all, yes. Drop gate on your head and then proceed to suplement it with any efficient dps spell as a side order. IGMS still does ok damage if you breach the enemy's shield pot, which you should be doing as a mage anyway. IGMS wont alone be enough to burn someone down fast enough but it surely does wonders against a CCed target that also has an astral deva mauling it's face.

Secondly, why look at it through a lense of 1v1 at all when most pvp is not 1v1? In most party pvps you have both disablers and dps'ers.

So yeah, "1 round of CC = death sentence" is a very good statement to assert as an axiom, even though it isnt necessarily just 1 round when it comes to Tenacity. Hypothetically if Tenacity rolled... say every 2 seconds or 3 seconds, we would be having a different conversation.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Thelight1 »

I like the change, but I think some other issues need to be addressed with it as well:

  • Have all spells cast operate off of the caster's highest DC. Your 9th level spells cast at a 40 DC? All of your spells cast at that DC, barring any of the ones that reach a higher DC due to synergies and conditionals.
  • Make all of the Divine feats and Charisma to Save abilities scale and cap. Each gives an absolutely ludicrous increase to damage, AC, and saves. With the bonuses capped, dials like the duration and the level a class gains abilities like divine synergy can be turned. We could actually see sorcerer get some love without folks pointing to div sorcs and saying "No".
  • Either immunities need to remain, or they have to act like a spellmantle, but instead of absorbing spells they absorb status effects. They'd have to be able to do this multiple times before failing, and I'm not even sure how it'd be handled in the backend.
  • This would have to be released with the dweomercrafting update; right now, it's very difficult to fit skills, stats, and saves on gear without spending an arm and a leg on greater or masterwork runes. With the next system, at 26 points base, players will be able to get 2 stats, 3 skills, and +1 to two specific saves in almost every armor slot with some gold.

If I missed anything I apologize: I'm writing this at 4 in the morning, so I'll make edits when I wake up.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by -XXX- »

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 25, 2025 8:08 am

First of all, yes. Drop gate on your head and then proceed to suplement it with any efficient dps spell as a side order. IGMS still does ok damage if you breach the enemy's shield pot, which you should be doing as a mage anyway. IGMS wont alone be enough to burn someone down fast enough but it surely does wonders against a CCed target that also has an astral deva mauling it's face.

Secondly, why look at it through a lense of 1v1 at all when most pvp is not 1v1? In most party pvps you have both disablers and dps'ers.

So yeah, "1 round of CC = death sentence" is a very good statement to assert as an axiom, even though it isnt necessarily just 1 round when it comes to Tenacity. Hypothetically if Tenacity rolled... say every 2 seconds or 3 seconds, we would be having a different conversation.

So let me get this straight. We're now talking 5 actions. That's 2.5 rounds for those who are paying attention. Can still trim it with time stop down to 2 rounds.
2 rounds of combat =/= 1-rounding somebody.

  • haste
  • gate
  • breach
  • CC spell*
  • IGMS

...that still don't quite 1 round somebody yet, but "1 round of CC = death sentence" should be treated as an axiom? Doesn't add up.
To further dismiss this claim, I'm just going to point out that we already have a surefire 3 round CC effect in Hellball.
It's a powerful spell, but hardly an auto-win button.

As for the "PvP is not 1v1" argument - getting 2v1ed is usually a death sentence in general because of the nature of action economy.
if you manage to CC somebody while having a WM buddy ready to take them down, it's likely to succeed & good for you!
They're even more likely to get mauled if they get rushed by 2 WMs, so what's the actual issue here?

The fundamental dynamic at play here is action economy - spellcasters operate at an action deficit when compared to builds that use attack rolls.
Generally we're talking: 2 spells/round vs 5 attacks/round (and that's after haste has been applied to both parties)
Using CC spells to rob somebody of actions is a good way for the spellcaster to mitigate this initial disadvantage, but even that takes at least 1 round of CC to break even.


*remember that we're talking about lowering the saves from 5% fail rate values, not making all DC spells auto-succeed.

Last edited by -XXX- on Tue Mar 25, 2025 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Second Breakfast »

Everyone is coming into this by talking about how this will affect PvP, and I think that’s pretty well covered. Thus, I would instead like to talk about how this will affect how spells are roleplayed.

How are you supposed to roleplay around, say, managing a successful Hold Person? There’s no time to give a diabolical monologue now, because they’re rolling saves every round to get free; sorry, were you trying to perform a SCENE with this person? Oh, that’s right. You’re supposed to be bursting them down so you can then later killbash them, I am a numpty.

Beyond that, no matter what scaling effects are added or adjustments are made to DCs, spells will just in general feel weaker and that WILL have an affect on how people play casters. Imagine playing an enchanter when your core spells can get broken out of in a round or two in ADDITION to everything else (you can pray out of them, sip your way out of the spell, use MB, etc). Even if you tack on, say, a token amount of psychic damage to many of the spells, your concept is going to seem anemic.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Xersaoth »

I do not like drastic changes without good argumentation. There is plenty of room for improvement without totally reworking what has already been working well, and it is better to bring one update at a time - everything that can be abused will likely be abused by someone. Also, I am not sure whether the player base wants it to become a completely different game or to wait a year or more for another announced huge rework. The update limbo is hell.

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Re: Tenacity (Rerolling Saving Throws)

Post by Security_Blanket »

Maybe instead of implementing a change that will piss off/alienate half the server, turning it into a game that the veteran players don't recognize, we should take other drastic measures that will piss off players, because it seems like that's the real reason problems persist.

You let your clarity wear off, you used your pray already and you got slapped with a simple Hold Person spell, then yes, you die, get over it. I died just the other day to a well timed enchantment spell, it happens. I remember a guy in PGCC complaining about his builds saves being too low, they were in the mid 30s, but that to him is too low, there's a chance they might roll more than a 1 and fail, heaven forbid. That thought process isn't restricted to them but it's been normalized across the board.

Draco Deleteur
Dreadlord Lucius Blackhand - "All is as Bane wills it."

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