Swashbuckler - is it underpowered?

[xtul]

Hello. I want to start a discussion about the current state of the Swashbuckler class. I wish to start by voicing my opinion, as uneducated as it may be.

I find Swashbuckler a severely underperforming class and in need of some changes, or even extra features. It appears to support an extremely limited amount of playstyles and is missing something defining.

1. It's good at climbing and sailing,
2. It's got helpful defensive buffs (extra AC, saves...), though not many,
3. At later levels, can completely ignore any damage for a short time.
4. It's got freedom of movement at a three-minute cooldown as a utility

So considering these highlights, I'd say Swashbuckler's role is to tank. The problem is, if you're trying to build a tank, there are better options, and most people go for them rather than Swash.

Second of all, NWN is not WoW, there are no clear role definitions and you can't just tank in this game. You need to contribute skills and damage, as well. A good build will probably have high damage, survivability, and maybe even some party skills.

And the issue is Swashbuckler's damage is extremely low. INT modifier bonus makes practically no difference, regardless of how high you get STR builds will always outclass you. The big problem here is that INT is a secondary stat that doesn't affect anything else, so is unlikely to be high.
And as for skills, unless you focus on sailing (a late game activity!), Rogue is just better due to more class skills and more skills per level.
Even when you want to build a supporting character by reducing enemies STR and CON (via Feint/Second Intention), it's extremely rare to be useful - very few enemies live long enough for such debuffs to matter. So the party only needs you for tough enemies.

When multiclassing, if you want to invest only a few levels, Swashbuckler doesn't offer much - it's probably better to grab Fighter or Rogue levels.
And when you want to invest many levels, you need to invest a lot of levels to get something useful - and even then, those useful things are plagued by problems as I described above.

---

So what do I suggest?

I'm by no means experienced in NWN build-making, but here's what I think would help. Only one of those points, or maybe a few of them, but not all of them at the same time :

1. INT modifier bonus to damage gets better the more levels you take in the class. In very late levels, maybe even 2.5x INT modifier. This would not stack with STR, and the higher bonus would be used.
2. As an alternative to the above point, the ability to also add a DEX modifier to damage alongside the INT modifier. This would be a unique feature because as far as I'm aware, nothing in NWN allows to add DEX to damage.
3. A bonus to parry skill alongside climbing and sailing.
4. Increased crit chance for ripostes.
5. Extra AC to offset the fact that Swashbuckler does not use shields. It could be based on the INT modifier.
6. Add paths to Swashbuckler to focus more on offensive or defensive.

I want this opinion to be taken with a grain of salt, because - as I mentioned - I'm not that experienced and perhaps there is something about the class I do not consider. And it is not my goal to make the class overpowered, just... competitive with alternatives.

[Richrd]

Here's the thing:
Arelith's balance is horrible.

What do I mean with that?
A lot of classes are, by themselves and without dips and multiclassing, very garbage compared to some others.
Pretty much nearly every single full-martial class that does not have UMD or is just blatantly overpowered can not compete by itself.
Due to the overabundance of magical buffs, magical consumables (wands specifically, not potions since anyone can use those) no single martial class will ever be designed to be strong on it's own.

You still want to play something like 30 fighter, 30 barbarian, 10 Fighter/20 EKD so on and so on?
You're a stat stick to get force multiplied by your mages. On your own you will never be truly good. Sure, you can go for a niche and fill it out and just go full meme with it. Like 20 levels into EKD. But you are still going to suck against anyone who can swing wands and buff themselves to the high heavens. This is done by design. It's a horrible design and cultivates Arelith's powerbuilding culture. I mean just wait for somebody to come in here and tell you to put levels into Loremaster, lmao. But it is what it is, and therefore Swashbuckler can never be simply good on it's own.

Again. You're a statstick to get force multiplied by magic. Either multiclass and pick up UMD, thus being a weaker Swashbuckler but a stronger overall character...
Or just live with it and be buddies with mages.

[xtul]

I understand your perspective, but I still believe that, despite what you've said, the Swashbuckler class is underwhelming.

While it's true that buffs (through wands or other means) can enhance effectiveness, casters have an inherent advantage in that aspect. My main point is that there are very few reasons to choose a Swashbuckler over a Fighter, Rogue, or Barbarian. Even though the Swashbuckler is a full BAB class while the Rogue only has 3/4 BAB, the Rogue offers significantly more options and versatility. And by the time you reach level 30, 3/4 BAB doesn't hurt all that much.

Each of the available martial classes has unique strengths that make them worthwhile choices:

• Fighter offers numerous extra feats and access to weapon specialization, along with good utility on Arelith.
• Barbarian provides rage and damage reduction, both of which are powerful and further enhanced on Arelith.
• Rogue features sneak attacks, a wide range of skills, access to grenades, and strong trap-laying abilities - almost a cheat code for certain content, from what I’ve seen.
• Harbinger and Spellblade - classes which I haven't played yet, seem to be more complex, well-developed, and generally regarded as strong.

Additionally, some of these classes can be built for ranged combat, whereas the Swashbuckler cannot.

Swashbuckler gets... some defensives and unmatched skill bonuses for skills that are extremely situational. Ultimately, it's not just about being a stat stick; it's more about being a below-average stat stick by default.

[Joe46]

Swashbuckler has as much AC as your regular fighter, every 5 points spent in the Parry Class will give you +1 Shield AC as long as you have a one handed weapon equipped and no shield. This caps at 6 AC, equaling a tower Adamantine shield which is about the highest AC you can get from any shield. You really do not need more AC

Swash is not a tanky class, it's a class that allows one to force the enemy to do checks to attack their STR and CON (first and second feint) and boost its own damage thanks to the INT to damage modifier. It's best paired with a small splash of fighter to get weapon specialitzations and WM, which will net you a high damage build with decent AC and 80 lore WITHOUT ever taking LM, because your intelligence is high.

It's fine as it is, swash can either focus on STR and become a danger in terms of damage with decent AC or go dex and focus exclusively on rogue-like gameplays with the twist that now your INT is your STR modifier.

The fine gentleman that answer before me seems ignorant of the fact you do not need loremaster to get to 80 lore, nor you need UMD to "Be good". I play a build that has neither and I do fine for myself. You can play a mundane martial just fine, most spells that are essential to you can either be cast with 80 lore (Which as a swash you'll have) or use potions and mundane items. All regular buffs people use on themselves when they're martials can be adquired by yourself with mundane items.

TL;DR Swash is fine, most wards exist to pad in pvp and those that don't are easily adquired with potions and some RP with herbalists

[Joe46]

As for complaining about classes more than one class to your build... yes, that's kind of half the point of us having so many classes and the WHOLE point of prestige classes. We are still loosely based off 3ed, what did you expect?

[xtul]

It's fine as it is, swash can either focus on STR and become a danger in terms of damage with decent AC or go dex and focus exclusively on rogue-like gameplays with the twist that now your INT is your STR modifier.

I'm not sure the part about a rogue-like approach is true. That way you're just making a worse Rogue - no sneak attacks (which are a huge deal in my opinion), no (same amount of) skills, and the INT modifier is honestly negligible. Even when you stack a lot of it (at the cost of something else) - that's the biggest pain point in my opinion. And if you want a DEX martial, there's Ranger.

And while I could focus on STR as a Swash... why would I? When I can take another class that can do more and better with STR?

It just feels to me that Swashbuckler aimed to fill a niche of combat-focused Rogue, but kind of failed at that goal.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Dex based damage is interesting, it's certainly weird that a dex based class is best when you go strength instead of dex, but it would have to replace strength and only be at swash 28+ or I will break it. And while Joe is right, in pvp i would almost certainly rather be pure melee over one of these qol dips, swash does synergize really well with loremaster because you want intelligence anyways.

I think the intentions are bleh (save the third of course) just because nep blocks their effects, which really does take a lot away from what the class can do well, and for that reason alone I think it's worth examining. But a swashbuckler doesn't have to compete with a barb weaponsmaster or anything, it just needs its thing. And that's the thing that gets lost about balance a lot in these conversations, not all classes have to be equal one vs one, they just need a unique thing they can do in group pvp and that would be a balanced class in this game.

[xtul]

I think the intentions are bleh (save the third of course) just because nep blocks their effects, which really does take a lot away from what the class can do well, and for that reason alone I think it's worth examining. But a swashbuckler doesn't have to compete with a barb weaponsmaster or anything, it just needs its thing. And that's the thing that gets lost about balance a lot in these conversations, not all classes have to be equal one vs one, they just need a unique thing they can do in group pvp and that would be a balanced class in this game.

I think you make a good point. I don't want to try and balance all the classes, but just allow Swashbuckler to properly fill a niche. It's got a theme going and it's "intelligent fighting", but turns out smashing your way through with Strength is always better than making intelligent choices, unless you use magic. Swashbuckler is such a great candidate to break this stereotype, just needs some help with it.

[Richrd]

As for complaining about classes more than one class to your build... yes, that's kind of half the point of us having so many classes and the WHOLE point of prestige classes. We are still loosely based off 3ed, what did you expect?

Has it ever occured to you that maybe players shouldn't get actively shafted just for daring to build a pure class character?

Swashbucklers, just like any other class, should not be inherently mediocre garbage without magical support because they went pure 30 levels.

[Anomandaris]

As for complaining about classes more than one class to your build... yes, that's kind of half the point of us having so many classes and the WHOLE point of prestige classes. We are still loosely based off 3ed, what did you expect?

Has it ever occured to you that maybe players shouldn't get actively shafted just for daring to build a pure class character?

Swashbucklers, just like any other class, should not be inherently mediocre garbage without magical support because they went pure 30 levels.

IMO there’s no reason pure class 30 should be seen as a design standard for viability, or offer inherent value by hitting it, it’s just a number and not how the system is really designed. And for some people multi classing adds nuance to character building and makes it more fun while adding additional RP opportunities by integrating other mechanics into your class and backstory. Wild mage and warlock are two that really need to go 30, and I always find it frustrating. Now incentivizing “deeper” investment than a 3 lvl dip is great. Swash does that as do many classes nowadays.

If you want to play a pure 30 you can. Are you garbage? No. Are you optimal? Also no. But you still have access to ann insane amount of self warding potential through non-lore and non-UMD consumables. Not to mention, Lore is a class skill. You can have access to literally every divine and arcane spell in the game by going a 30 pure class swash. I don’t see how this equates to “dip or the best friends with a mage” and exist only as a magically enhanced stat stick.

Yes, characters do need to ward up, in that sense we’re all just “magically enhanced stat sticks”… but it’s a world with magic that’s kind of the fun of it.

I’ve seen good swash players do terrifying thing in pvp in and outside of tournaments. It can be a very strong class, just can’t force it to be something it’s not. Do I wish I could build a 26/4 Wiz/fighter tensers Gish? I do, but it’s not really viable so I’ll play a spellsword if that’s the vibe I’m going for..

[xtul]

I’ve seen good swash players do terrifying thing in pvp in and outside of tournaments. It can be a very strong class, just can’t force it to be something it’s not. Do I wish I could build a 26/4 Wiz/fighter tensers Gish? I do, but it’s not really viable so I’ll play a spellsword if that’s the vibe I’m going for..

Well, the question is, did those players do those things because of Swashbuckler levels?

For example, I once did some writ work with a person roleplaying as the same kind of character as I, a fencer. She put in vastly more to the group than me, also we dueled after and I got utterly defeated.

What was the difference? Well, I was Swashbuckler/Weapon Master (with majority of levels in Swash), she was Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master (majority in Rogue). Same class fantasy, same approach to fighting and so on. The difference was that Swash wasn't even that good in its own niche.

Her build did the same thing mine did but also had access to Epic Dodge and plenty of sneak attacks. See where I'm getting at?

[Android Sufferer]

They're not that bad at all. Useful in dips and stand up great as a class - however they don't really have much unique going for them.

Third intention is fantastic, but you really need to be pure to get much mileage out of it.

Feint and second intention are cool but rarely actually apply in any combat because of NEP and the prevalence of immunity to ability drain in PvE, rendering them worse than a craftable poison.

[xtul]

They're not that bad at all. Useful in dips and stand up great as a class - however they don't really have much unique going for them.

Third intention is fantastic, but you really need to be pure to get much mileage out of it.

Feint and second intention are cool but rarely actually apply in any combat because of NEP and the prevalence of immunity to ability drain in PvE, rendering them worse than a craftable poison.

But doesn't your post, in fact, point out that Swash is kind of bad?

• It's useful for dips (I assume for INT damage), but then why not turn it into a prestige class with 5 levels, like Invisible Blade?
• Third intention requires full Swash levels, practically causing your character to be built around that particular feature
• Feint feats (arguably the strongest point of the class) don't work that well in most cases, either due to the prevalence of immunities or due to the short life span of enemies

[xtul]

I know that my posts on this topic are negative, but I honestly find it difficult to figure out how high Swashbuckler levels could be useful, or rather, if they are worth it compared to other options.

Most posts being positive appear to, in reality, say "It's not horrible" - it is not, but it's not even average in my opinion, and I wish that was changed.

[Anomandaris]

I’ve seen good swash players do terrifying thing in pvp in and outside of tournaments. It can be a very strong class, just can’t force it to be something it’s not. Do I wish I could build a 26/4 Wiz/fighter tensers Gish? I do, but it’s not really viable so I’ll play a spellsword if that’s the vibe I’m going for..

Well, the question is, did those players do those things because of Swashbuckler levels?

For example, I once did some writ work with a person roleplaying as the same kind of character as I, a fencer. She put in vastly more to the group than me, also we dueled after and I got utterly defeated.

What was the difference? Well, I was Swashbuckler/Weapon Master (with majority of levels in Swash), she was Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master (majority in Rogue). Same class fantasy, same approach to fighting and so on. The difference was that Swash wasn't even that good in its own niche.

Her build did the same thing mine did but also had access to Epic Dodge and plenty of sneak attacks. See where I'm getting at?

Yes they were absolutely dangerous because they were running a deep swash.

The class gives you a number of free feats that are fairly powerful, and intelligence modifier as a flat damage output means consistent damage output is better compared to a rogue. The rogue can do more damage with a sneak attack, but that’s “conditional.” In PVE it might be very easy using guard to get consistent sneak attacks and melt content (e.g. shadow dancer). That does not apply in PVP; unless you’re coming out of stealth ambushing someone, getting a knockdown, or otherwise flat footing someone, those sneak attacks don’t come into play.

It is also a 1 BAB class, rogue is 3/4, that is a substantial difference in attack bonus and a big deal.

Third intention is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, full stop. And a lot of of the argument seems to be going deep 30 is not viable, well at the same time saying you have to go deep 30 to build for it to make it work, which seems contradictory. Having that ability on a 30 sec cooldown with the rest of the kit is absolutely a capstone ability worth building an entire character around.

Saying the other intentions are useless because negative energy protection exists is like saying harm is useless and we know better…. Breaches exist. Crippling strike can be useful for the same reasons; as can negative energy flood/burst. But you’re gonna have to set it up and use it properly.

It’s not the easiest class to pilot compared to other martials and mileage will vary. Shadowdancer is a lot easier to get value out of for example. Just hit the button, disappear and you now have a temporary tactical advantage.

It’s not going to be a PVE monster, but it can absolutely terrorize in PVP skirmishes and duels. I would encourage you to find out how other people have gotten great mileage out of it, rather than being convinced it’s impossible to do so. I personally don’t think the class can really be buffed without making it too over tuned given what it’s capable of.

[Kushion]

I think all swash needs is maybe 1 bonus feat, at best. it’s a pretty solid class. using an example of “X beat me in a duel” is irrelevant because build only takes you so far in pvp, respectfully.

as it stands currently a swashbuckler can get more damage out of insightful strike than a fighter can out of EWS.

yes 30 swash and probably any non WM swash is probably gonna be mid, it could be more rewarding for going deeper. i personally wish the free sail feats were just made into bonus feats (I will never make use of skf sail).

[xtul]

A lot of good points, thank you.

It’s not going to be a PVE monster, but it can absolutely terrorize in PVP skirmishes and duels. I would encourage you to find out how other people have gotten great mileage out of it, rather than being convinced it’s impossible to do so. I personally don’t think the class can really be buffed without making it too over tuned given what it’s capable of.

It's not that I believe it to be impossible, just personally can't figure this class out. My only experience so far is PVE so maybe that is why it is so.

I think all swash needs is maybe 1 bonus feat, at best. it’s a pretty solid class. using an example of “X beat me in a duel” is irrelevant because build only takes you so far in pvp, respectfully.

as it stands currently a swashbuckler can get more damage out of insightful strike than a fighter can out of EWS.

yes 30 swash and probably any non WM swash is probably gonna be mid, it could be more rewarding for going deeper. i personally wish the free sail feats were just made into bonus feats (I will never make use of skf sail).

I think I agree that sailing/climbing improvements should be optional, I should be able to decide if I want something different if I'm not going to sail and I have enough skill points to put max in climbing, thus not bothering with boosting it further

As for EWS, of course it's possible to get more damage with Insightful Strike, but personally, I think it's not enough, I wish I could reach at least 1/2 of damage bonus of a pure STR build.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I mean, the best swash build is probably something like 9 swash, 14 fighter, 7 weapons master. Strength based, 16 base int. That seems weird for a base class thats made for dexterity, so I'm not sure where folks are getting "its ok". Yeah, its an ok splash lol that rewards you for going deeper than most splashes. Any other version is just a bad fighter if we are being honest with ourselves.

[Dreams]

Swashbuckler is best when it is 10 levels, added to some other classes or prestige classes. Deep swashbuckler is unrewarding. But also I feel like Arelith balance is way off when Harbinger gets in, so when you compare it to the top meta OP stuff then yeah Swash is underpowered and sucky in comparison. It's still fun and probably pretty well balanced for the past 2-3 years though.

[Rei_Jin]

Strength Swash at 25/5 is quite respectable, it’s Dex Swash at 26/4 that struggles.

Pure Swash is… not great.

But most Arelith classes are designed to reward multiclassing.

[xtul]

I played around in PGCC to follow some advice in this thread. I made a 9 Swash/14 Fighter/7 Weapon Master.

It is as I assumed, the build only really works when you put many points into STR. But I admit, it works well. 9 levels of Swash are enough to add a considerable INT damage bonus (of course, together with STR).

So I suppose I can agree on the following:

• Swashbuckler, while being a DEX class, suffers from a lack of STR. This makes building pure DEX martial difficult because the INT damage bonus can never match the potential STR+INT bonus.
• Swashbuckler is not very rewarding when taken as a pure class, though, in a certain sense, it is powerful (a very good damage mitigation ability)

So I'd say the idea of adding DEX to damage at very late levels would help mitigate it's STR reliance. I need to admit I was talking about Swashbuckler being weak from a high DEX, low STR standpoint.

[Ork]

Swash should provide dex to damage lets just do it.

[Dachlatte]

Would be great if Panache extends to some other "social" skills that require interaction with others, Appraise for instance.

[xtul]

I wish a content creator would chime in with their thoughts. I realize balance is a delicate matter, so I would like a specialist to give their opinion on proposed solutions to a "DEX class not working well with pure DEX" problem.

[Android Sufferer]

They're not that bad at all. Useful in dips and stand up great as a class - however they don't really have much unique going for them.

Third intention is fantastic, but you really need to be pure to get much mileage out of it.

Feint and second intention are cool but rarely actually apply in any combat because of NEP and the prevalence of immunity to ability drain in PvE, rendering them worse than a craftable poison.

But doesn't your post, in fact, point out that Swash is kind of bad?

• It's useful for dips (I assume for INT damage), but then why not turn it into a prestige class with 5 levels, like Invisible Blade?
• Third intention requires full Swash levels, practically causing your character to be built around that particular feature
• Feint feats (arguably the strongest point of the class) don't work that well in most cases, either due to the prevalence of immunities or due to the short life span of enemies

No, I think it's in a good spot - if you consider Harbringer to be an outlier.

My issue with the class is it's just 'numbers' more damage, more ac, more ab etc. which isn't bad, it's just not unique. You're relatively indistinguishable from a fighter unless you get into trouble and pop 3rd intention, which is a rarity.

The on-hits which would make it more unique don't work, so as a suggestion having bypass NEP / ability drain immunity would help that class identity. (Applied poisons already do this)

It's bland, not weak.