Swashbuckler - is it underpowered?

[silverpheonix]

They're not that bad at all. Useful in dips and stand up great as a class - however they don't really have much unique going for them.

Third intention is fantastic, but you really need to be pure to get much mileage out of it.

Feint and second intention are cool but rarely actually apply in any combat because of NEP and the prevalence of immunity to ability drain in PvE, rendering them worse than a craftable poison.

But doesn't your post, in fact, point out that Swash is kind of bad?

• It's useful for dips (I assume for INT damage), but then why not turn it into a prestige class with 5 levels, like Invisible Blade?
• Third intention requires full Swash levels, practically causing your character to be built around that particular feature
• Feint feats (arguably the strongest point of the class) don't work that well in most cases, either due to the prevalence of immunities or due to the short life span of enemies

No, I think it's in a good spot - if you consider Harbringer to be an outlier.

My issue with the class is it's just 'numbers' more damage, more ac, more ab etc. which isn't bad, it's just not unique. You're relatively indistinguishable from a fighter unless you get into trouble and pop 3rd intention, which is a rarity.

The on-hits which would make it more unique don't work, so as a suggestion having bypass NEP / ability drain immunity would help that class identity. (Applied poisons already do this)

It's bland, not weak.

Harbinger has just straight-up broken abilities. When I heard about Hex of Runebreaker, I had to ask other contributors "is this supposed to work like that?" because I didn't believe anyone would intentionally give a level 6 PC (or 6 harb dip) an instant-use, saveless "I win" explosion button against any summon be it summon creature 1, gate, or Conduit. (That warlock summons are special and get the only save is weird).

[-XXX-]

TBH I'm not a big fan of immunity bypass exceptions for select classes.
If I apply something like NEP, I expect it to behave in a certain way. We can sure talk about what that should be in terms of general tweaks, but subverting certain dynamics by allowing arbitrarily handpicked classes to ignore them altogether for the sake of building up their class identity isn't a good design IMO.
It introduces too much compexity & mechanical opacity - there's nothing interesting about wasting time applying NEP only to find out you're facing a Defiler.

[xtul]

TBH I'm not a big fan of immunity bypass exceptions for select classes.
If I apply something like NEP, I expect it to behave in a certain way. We can sure talk about what that should be in terms of general tweaks, but subverting certain dynamics by allowing arbitrarily handpicked classes to ignore them altogether for the sake of building up their class identity isn't a good design IMO.
It introduces too much compexity & mechanical opacity - there's nothing interesting about wasting time applying NEP only to find out you're facing a Defiler.

I think it's a good point and we should not give Swash a free pass, because player-applied NEP would lose its meaning. Unless that would only apply to monsters, but I'm not sure if it's possible to distinguish like that.

• You're immune to negative energy BUT not against certain specific cases that you'll never figure out!

This reinforces my point that large Swash investments, aside from Third Intention, is just not worth doing whatsoever.

[Kushion]

dex to damage is absurd unless it’s like a Level 30 capstone for swash. lest we have 26/4 fighter dips with epic dodge and STR character damage

[xtul]

dex to damage is absurd unless it’s like a Level 30 capstone for swash. lest we have 26/4 fighter dips with epic dodge and STR character damage

You'd need 10 Rogue levels for Epic Dodge (for Defensive Roll feat).

I think this is not a capstone-tier ability. Though it's certainly powerful enough to require safeguards from dipping just for that feature.

[Sandrow]

Although parry builds are regarded as memes, swashbuckler could be an outstanding parrier. You could achieve pretty high ac with a lot of dex, and stack your parry skill over 80s, which means you could parry almost every attack from BOSSes with a +25 dmg parried attack. Pure Swash can take epic dodge and makes their parry even more reliable. Such a swashbuckler is one of the best pve tank.

You may have some difficulty against a swarm of monsters, but solo to 30 is doable and interesting. A parry swash can easily solo the dragons with a supportive teammate healing you with kits. And pvp most melee by simiply press the parry button.

[Kythana]

dex to damage is absurd unless it’s like a Level 30 capstone for swash. lest we have 26/4 fighter dips with epic dodge and STR character damage

You'd need 10 Rogue levels for Epic Dodge (for Defensive Roll feat).

Swash gets Defensive Roll as an epic bonus feat option. Doesn't need rogue.

[Android Sufferer]

TBH I'm not a big fan of immunity bypass exceptions for select classes.
If I apply something like NEP, I expect it to behave in a certain way. We can sure talk about what that should be in terms of general tweaks, but subverting certain dynamics by allowing arbitrarily handpicked classes to ignore them altogether for the sake of building up their class identity isn't a good design IMO.
It introduces too much compexity & mechanical opacity - there's nothing interesting about wasting time applying NEP only to find out you're facing a Defiler.

I'm actually all for reducing complexity, but Arelith deviated from that a couple of years ago. There are a huge amount of exceptions. NEP also has form, poison already bypasses it.

You could argue that it's not a supernatural ability decrease (I guess the argument for poison bypass) as the on hits are just poking someone in the right place.

If NEP worked only against supernatural/magic things, then you'd reduce complexity since the only exception would then be crippling strike.

Regardless, the original point is that swash is in a fine place but bland. There are other ways to solve that.

[-XXX-]

There's a difference - tweak and alter NEP all you want for as long as it performs for and against all builds the same way.
Poisons bypassing NEP in general is fine, poisons bypassing NEP only when used by certain class would not be IMO.

This form of added compexity not only makes the game less intuitive, but also incentivizes and rewards metgaming your opponent's character sheet and build before engaging them.

[Android Sufferer]

There's a difference - tweak and alter NEP all you want for as long as it performs for and against all builds the same way.
Poisons bypassing NEP in general is fine, poisons bypassing NEP only when used by certain class would not be IMO.

This form of added compexity not only makes the game less intuitive, but also incentivizes and rewards metgaming your opponent's character sheet and build before engaging them.

Literally nothing works for and against all builds the same way, because they are all different. Poisons bypassing NEP, for example, is much worse for a build with low saves.

Classes doing different things is also the cornerstone of dnd, so I'm really not sure what you mean.

Exceptions and inconsistencies cause illogical complexity which is really what you're trying to avoid, things like divine shield being halved if you have ED is not a great solution, because you can get weaker by taking a feat.

NEP working only against supernatural/magic ability drains is easy enough to explain (that's what the original TT spell does), the only exception that would be needed would be crippling strike.

Surely this change would reduce the reward metagaming a swashbuckler?

Without + NoMeta: Either I do or do not have NEP applied before the fight, and may choose to apply it in the fight once I see very clearly from the combat log he's a swash.
Without + Meta: He's a swash, I'll apply NEP so he can't get me with his on-hit.

=Difference

With + NoMeta: Either I do or do not have NEP applied before the fight which makes no difference.
With + Meta: He's a swash. Can't stop his on-hit with a potion.

=No difference

[xtul]

Swash gets Defensive Roll as an epic bonus feat option. Doesn't need rogue.

I didn't know that - thanks.

I decided to try out pure Swash in PGCC today and I noticed the following benefits:

• Full BAB
• Access to Epic Dodge (this is huge - it synergizes exceptionally well with Third Intention)
• Access to Blinding Speed (at 30 it's perma-haste)
• Third Intention has a very short cooldown, so if I spend my Epic Dodge I can turn on Third Intention - IMO this is a big deal, not an obvious combination
• High Reflex save along with access to Defensive Roll, along with the above points makes Swash hard to kill in melee
• Free Slippery Mind to offset relatively low Will save somewhat

This, along with high parry, makes Swash a really strong tank in PVE. As for PVP, I'd say it's a hard melee counter, slowly chipping their health away while Swash's health remains high.

But I'd say there's still something missing here, just not in tankiness area. Going pure Swash in PVE puts one in a very specific role that is often unnecessary. In PVP, casters are death sentences due to low Will and inability to kill a caster in a reasonable timeframe.

So I'd say we either need to bump the amount of INT modifier damage, or give DEX damage bonus (even if it's limited to, say, 1/3 of Swash level). I want to be clear that I don't wish the class to compete 1:1 with STR builds, just give it a slight buff.

[Paint]

The problem with buffing the amount of int damage that swash receives is legitimately just that strength swash is a thing -- and can be surprisingly fun -- and it's made even easier by things like Elven Chain not turning off swash gimmicks. I think dex to damage is also a can of worms, but it's hard to disagree that the least attractive thing about high-dex builds right now is that the damage is awful, meaning that most dex builds that want to seriously compete are doing so with a bunch of sneak attack or some profane gimmick.

It's been awhile since I've played with swashbuckler, so I can't really offer anything more nuanced than that, though. I had a lot of fun with my swashbuckler. They were simple, but they ran great and third intention is a very funny tool.

The gearing, however, was an absolute nightmare, and I pity the div swashes out there who had to gear even more than I did. Granted, I guess swash gets a soft int bonus now, so there's that.

[A1RMAN]

Swash is built around defensive abilities and ways to avoid damage. It's extremely strong in that. And these defenses are balanced out with mediocre damage. It's not low, it's just mediocre. And there are ways to raise it.

Swash is extremely, extremely strong if you know what you are doing. In rare cases you will encounter some opponents you'll have stalemate fights against, because you are struggling to finish them. But you cannot have everything.

The only problem with swash would be a lack of bonus feats, which leaves you with less options it terms of multiclassing or even just choosing the optimal amount of feats. You kinda have to give up on too many good feats.

[xtul]

Swash is built around defensive abilities and ways to avoid damage. It's extremely strong in that. And these defenses are balanced out with mediocre damage. It's not low, it's just mediocre. And there are ways to raise it.

Swash is extremely, extremely strong if you know what you are doing. In rare cases you will encounter some opponents you'll have stalemate fights against, because you are struggling to finish them. But you cannot have everything.

The only problem with swash would be a lack of bonus feats, which leaves you with less options it terms of multiclassing or even just choosing the optimal amount of feats. You kinda have to give up on too many good feats.

I came to that conclusion after reading responses to this thread. And I suppose that is fine since the defensive capabilities are strong.

What I'd like to see is an "offensive" path.

[Shadowy Reality]

While I generally agree that swash past dip or level 10 is not really worth it when compared to other options...

I would not say Swash 30 is absolutely unplayable or terrible. As others have mentioned they strive in one on one scenarios using a hit-and-run tactics. They are not meant to stand toe to toe when your typical WM trading hits.

They are meant to sit in Parry stance punishing each missed attack, and making use of Third Intention to avoid damage as necessary. A Dex Swash can have their blinding speed active permanently. They have Epic Dodge.

Got hit by a death squad throwing acid bombs? Worry not, both your Blinding Speed and Acrobatic Skill (freedom) have no activation, meaning you get out of there without wasting rounds.

With Third Intention they are immune to damage 6 out of every 30 seconds, that's 20% uptime. Doesn't sound like much?
Third intention makes you immune while you are knocked down.
Third intention makes you immune to a Hellball into Greater Ruin combo (they land on the same round).
You can approach that scary WM pop third intention the last second, get a flurry in and get out, they cannot damage you.
Got paralyzed or slowing and can't afford to -pray or use a wand? Chances are your Acrobatic freedom can get you out of it.

Will you have a lot of killing pressure? No, you will not. But you will be hard pressed to find another melee class that has as many tools to escape dangerous situations and outright avoid damage and CC.

[BurntGnome]

I just find it rather goofy that a class that screams "sailor class" as Swashbuckler does is an Int class and not a Wis class.

[Apothys]

While I generally agree that swash past dip or level 10 is not really worth it when compared to other options...

I would not say Swash 30 is absolutely unplayable or terrible. As others have mentioned they strive in one on one scenarios using a hit-and-run tactics. They are not meant to stand toe to toe when your typical WM trading hits.

They are meant to sit in Parry stance punishing each missed attack, and making use of Third Intention to avoid damage as necessary. A Dex Swash can have their blinding speed active permanently. They have Epic Dodge.

Got hit by a death squad throwing acid bombs? Worry not, both your Blinding Speed and Acrobatic Skill (freedom) have no activation, meaning you get out of there without wasting rounds.

With Third Intention they are immune to damage 6 out of every 30 seconds, that's 20% uptime. Doesn't sound like much?
Third intention makes you immune while you are knocked down.
Third intention makes you immune to a Hellball into Greater Ruin combo (they land on the same round).
You can approach that scary WM pop third intention the last second, get a flurry in and get out, they cannot damage you.
Got paralyzed or slowing and can't afford to -pray or use a wand? Chances are your Acrobatic freedom can get you out of it.

Will you have a lot of killing pressure? No, you will not. But you will be hard pressed to find another melee class that has as many tools to escape dangerous situations and outright avoid damage and CC.

Wow that was a fantastic explanation of how to use the swashbuckler 10/10. Highly motivated to make one now, i do like the idea of them now.

[AstralUniverse]

I rolled str 20 swash 5 lm 5 wm a few months ago (it was before the lm nerf tho) and all I can say is that it was incredible. Even more on live than on paper. Answers to every situation. From awesome saves and slippery mind, to 80 lore if you bother, to umd, to just high frontloaded stats in almost every measure. High ac, ab, damage, saves, hp, skill economy, and short windup with long duration and refunds on scrolls meaning always rest to 100% and buff once in 2 RL hours, made it very well-rounded but also at least slightly (or not slightly) higher than average in all stats except if we compare ac to a div build or melee pm.

That's just one example on top of my head. Swash is a very good class. It also feels very satisfying whenever I see a powerful melee 'meta' build gets clowned by a meme dex swash in arena duels, slowly and mockingly chips your hp without taking damage, makes me smirk in satisfaction.

I also know that dex 10 swash 4 fighter 16 liberator is one of the most oppresive things you can encounter, with it's stupendously good dirty fighting potential. The main drawback of this one is having to gear 5 stats and personally I havent had the patience to gear something like that since hard 5%s were disabled but some people do play this and they are geared (and for the record, hard 5%s are not necessary to gear this, but it'll take a lot of t3 runes).

[Paint]

People who have the patience to gear div swashes scare me. Div swashes that are geared scare me.

[Aren]

Swashbuckler is in a great spot. Is it highly competitive as a pure build? Not likely.
Is it a great chassis to build on top of? Very much so.

[Cnaym]

Just an idea, but the improvement feats for dirty fighting would offer swash a little more offensive power that isn't just raw numbers.

Seeing how their on hits scale with the same skills that dirty fighting does and it's a dex feat with dex to damage having method 1 or 2 for decreased cooldown in the higher levels of swash would make it a little better at dealing with multiple mobs or switch to offensive moves in pvp without giving it a silly bonus.

Dirty fighting also doesn't work in parry, so it'd be a tradeoff between offense or defense.