Let's talk about the evangelist dip

[Kythana]

I don't really see Divine Shield being a big problem.

It's awkward for a variety of reasons including:

• Breaking stealth.
• Breaking Improved Expertise.
• Requiring 2 feats and 13 in strength.
• Breaks your CL, requiring another feat to mitigate.

Even still, disregarding evangelist for a moment.

27/3 Bard/Div has been a thing you can do. You can get divine shield and charisma to saves with song level 27 (the same song level that bard/LM has).

Yet I've rarely seen this build played, let alone bard/evang with divine shield.

I've played the latter myself, and it didn't really play as amazing it sounded on paper. Once you start getting into the silly AC levels that bard already gets, generally the best strategy is always going to be Flat Footing.

And Divine Shield does not help when you are flat footed.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Just getting back to what the evangelist dip does, this is what i got for certain-

-Allows loremaster levels without losing bard song.

-Allows a dip that gives you a fourth attack per round while still having max song thats not selfish solo.

-allows access to divine shield with full bard song.

These are things I think are true but haven't actually tested, feel free to correct if I got it wrong.

-Boosts bard song by 11 levels when leveling, which I think means that if you go 3 bard 3 evangelist to make things simple you have a level 17 bard song as a level 6 character.

-Allows for crazy dips like 8 fighter 3 evangelist 19 bard while still having 30 bard song, or 8 swash for panache and + 8 damage. Yeah, dispels might be rough, but while things have been altered around dispel on arelith I'm still fairly certain that if you use consumables for buffs you get the 30 cl. The fighter in particular seems pretty juicy as it could make up nicely for the lack of epic feats while giving you three combat feats pre epic. It's likely what I will do as it doesn't require a remake of my current bard to get to, and if for some reason I think it's bad I can always go back. That at least resolves my main concern about it ending up nerfed soon since I can always just switch back to 30 bard.

So, I will finish this bit by asking again, assuming all I said above is true, is this really something the server wants?

---

Just some afterthought opinion stuff on Corner Stealthing and pvp, if you have fun with it that's great. But more than likely you are the only one in the situation having fun. Playing Wack a mole is something you do with your young children, or on a date as a teenager. It really doesn't fit that well when it comes to relaxing and playing a video game. There are a few things that make pvp awful on nwn (It was fun in 2002, but that was 23 years ago now) but hands down the top of the list is corner stealthing, and if I could come up with a reasonable suggestion to nerf it I would not only make it I would bring it up every day. When it comes to rogues, who's whole thing is built around it, or mages who are so weak without it they get a pass, I get it. But if i start seeing bards, weaponsmasters, ect, heading toward the corner, yeah...I'm just going to lens out of there, leave you like BIlly Idol dancing with yourself. I'm playing this game to tell stories and have fun, not chase you around for an hour of my life.

But that's just me and my opinion, if you have fun with it and can find people who are having fun chasing you from corner to corner I say do you.

[But Will It Blend]

So you're still capped by your total character level for your bard song. That's been my entire experience so far.

It allows bard to have options at the cost of a dip so you can't take 2 other things entirely that you might want.

So yes. Actually. I would like something more interesting than just "You play 30 bard or 25 bard 5 loremaster, and you're going to like it. Dirge? No, screw Dirge. You can have some damage but you don't get to support in any way. Your song gets to be trash, but also, the loremaster still gets to be better than you."

Taking a 3 class dip to open up so many more options isn't a bad idea. It's how things have worked for a long time. Why do you think martials take rogue or bard dips? Because it opens up options. Would could argue that yeah. It's OP to be allowed a full 30 tumble, access to UMD, discipline, perform, open lock, search, and disable device. Or we could realize this is the same thing that's been going on forever.

[Kythana]

Allows for crazy dips like 8 fighter 3 evangelist 19 bard while still having 30 bard song, or 8 swash for panache and + 8 damage.

This is what I meant earlier by saying:

Speculating about numbers, theorycrafting builds and PGCC pvp is not indicative of how a class performs in reality. Nor should balance be dictated by it.

This build on paper seems crazy, but it isn't. These builds have very glaring weaknesses in the form of excessive windup.

Since it's a mundane, you would be going into: Haste Potion -> Bard Song(no lasting inspiration) -> Divine Shield -> Divine Might -> Curse Song. In realistic PvP encounters, these builds tend not to function very well. You spend more time buffing than you do actually fighting, and only really looks good in an arena situation.

-Allows loremaster levels without losing bard song.

Like mentioned before, this particular build ruins your CL, making this build into a mundane. Is that the worst? Not always, but it does give away one of Bard's core class components. Most bard players that do well are almost always casters because of the strength of things like Good Hope + Mass Haste.

It's a trade-off, not always an upgrade.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

This is what I meant earlier by saying:

Speculating about numbers, theorycrafting builds and PGCC pvp is not indicative of how a class performs in reality. Nor should balance be dictated by it.

This build on paper seems crazy, but it isn't. These builds have very glaring weaknesses in the form of excessive windup.

Since it's a mundane, you would be going into: Haste Potion -> Bard Song(no lasting inspiration) -> Divine Shield -> Divine Might -> Curse Song. In realistic PvP encounters, these builds tend not to function very well. You spend more time buffing than you do actually fighting, and only really looks good in an arena situation.

-Allows loremaster levels without losing bard song.

Some things. One, lasting inspiration is character level not class level unless its changed on arelith and not documented. Two, I personally couldn't squeeze in the divines without a remake, and I would have enough dex for the haste feat. So for me, the only wind up would be the bard songs which already exists with my 30 bard, and three, pvp is such a small part of the game for 95% of the server whereas pve is a huge part for everyone. Balance there does matter, some might even say more than pvp but I can tell you are going to think that's crazy talk

It is good to know that it's capped by character level though, that's one issue solved. But the point you guys keep missing is that this isn't really a question of whether or not it's more powerful (though if it is that does play into the point) but rather should it exist at all. If the philosophy is still "No dips for 30 bard song" then this spits in the face of that. And if that's no longer the philosophy, why are we adding evangelist into the mix at all. Let's just go all in.

[But Will It Blend]

Song of the Heart is your reward for 30 bard though. Not simply getting 30 song.

[But Will It Blend]

Song of the Heart is your reward for 30 bard though. Not simply getting 30 song.

Further: The expectation on other classes isn't that they are just 100% amazing at 30 either. Fighter. Rogue. Going pure 30 can... work? I guess? But you sacrifice a lot for really almost no benefit.

I don't think a 3 class dip to give more options while giving up certain other benefits like a better bardsong than anyone else can get ever is exactly nothing. It's just not as valuable as the dip.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Song of the heart was another topic i wanted to get to this summer, but since you brought it up, I will give you a preview. I find it to be a trap. While the +1 across the board to your team is certainly good, what you give up in feats and survivability (no edr 3 or high dex for bonkers ac) makes the juice totally not worth the squeeze. If I'm a weapons master looking for a boost from a bard song, I would rather the +3 that I know will not only survive the fight but distract my opponents during it for long enough to make sure we get the win than +4 that could disappear instantly because the bard is soft.

That being said, I do think its fixable, but I will save that for its own topic.

Either way, unless one of us has something new to say I think we should move over for a bit and let others chime in

[Critique]

Yeah but you’re not taking song of the heart to be a force in PVP, you’re taking it to outshine all of the other bards so you get to be the one who dominates singing in a group if there’s multiple bards. If you’ve ever been the bard with the lesser song in a party you know what I mean, you really feel useless.

[But Will It Blend]

Yeah but you’re not taking song of the heart to be a force in PVP, you’re taking it to outshine all of the other bards so you get to be the one who dominates singing in a group if there’s multiple bards. If you’ve ever been the bard with the lesser song in a party you know what I mean, you really feel useless.

You exist to mass haste and nothing more.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Yeah but you’re not taking song of the heart to be a force in PVP, you’re taking it to outshine all of the other bards so you get to be the one who dominates singing in a group if there’s multiple bards. If you’ve ever been the bard with the lesser song in a party you know what I mean, you really feel useless.

Selfish solo is really good, because it gives you two extra everything except damage, which it gives +3. Plus, it boosts your search with epic focus which is super helpful. And while the song of the heart bard is off hiding under some rock, you will be right there in the thick of it with the melee folks. They may have the better song, but if you do it right you will be the bard they remember.

[RedGiant]

But that's just me and my opinion

This is one of those threads that risks ruining a good...not a great thing.

I think Kythana already covered this, but perhaps not in enough detail to lay it all out.

Every single thing listed here as a concern comes with a serious trade-off...as it should in good design.

Any cleric/evangelist can fit in divine shield. So, the concern here must be what you can do additively with this dip?

Let's look at your fear of 4 attacks and divine shield. Assuming a minimal dip, you will be able to reliably cover 7 levels of bardsong for an always-on lvl 30 song (assuming the appropriate gearing, stats, gifts, and feats needed to reach 70 perform). The problem is, this puts you at 23 CL, well into the dispel-bait territory. Moreover, 4 attacks aren't necessarily optimal on a build that will regularly self-haste. Again, this is a "good on paper" build, but utterly ruined by low CL.

Also, you can do some of these things, but not all of these things.

For example Loremaster/Evangelist/Bard. I'm not sure what the threat here is, other than as a utility build, but 13 Str, 16 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha is sort of the minimum. Good luck fitting in a competitive Str/Dex/Con. I mean, you can build it, but it is MAD as they come. Here again, you will run into the the CL issue, capping out here at 25, which is borderline.

IMO, there is literally nothing you can do here that you couldn't do better somewhere else.

If you want a divine shield 4 attack monstrosity, you play a war priest...not an evangelist.
If you want a LM Evangelist, you're trading 5CL and ALL your Epic Bonus Feats to do it. Yes you will have some cookies full bards won't, but they will have full CL and...you know...actually be able to fight.

[Rei_Jin]

An Evangelist dip for majority bard allows for mundane bard builds to be functional, giving space for build variety. You give up casting, functionally, to be able to sing well and have other cookies. IMO, it's fine as it is, because we have to balance based on level 30, not level 10. And any bard who takes it and uses their casting, is dispel bait.

Evangelist majority with Bard dip is okay. It cannot get full song level, but it makes up for it with Planar Conduit/Mummy Dust and other epic cleric goodies. The loss of CL is pain though, meaning you usually have to burn feats to get Arcane Defense: Abjuration, or accept that you are going to be dispel bait.

This cost, that your CL is lower and that you can expect to be dispelled, is significant enough that I see it as the fair and reasonable cost for the benefits provided.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out, you cannot with these options go heavily into Divine Shield/Might, because of both stat needs and feat costs. Bards take heavy feat investment to be functional, what are you going to do, dip fighter as well? For how far? How much song do you want to give up?

There's better ways to do most of these things than the bard/evangelist chassis, and I'd strongly recommend those over it.

Song of the Heart is basically a trap option now, and should only be taken in niche cases. It costs way too much for what it is, but that was done because people were making livelord bards with SotH who were having outsized impact on PvP. The heavy cost removes the ability to make an EDR 3 SotH Bard. Could it be adjusted? Maybe. Not the current topic of conversation.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

This is one of those threads that risks ruining a good...not a great thing.

I'll explain it one more time, since it seems you missed it. The power level is all but irrelevant to the conversation. If it is more powerful (and I'm really starting to think it is, since im fairly certain I can use consumables to mitigate the dispels) than that's just another add-on to the point, but the point is "should it exist" first and foremost.

And I think that's an extremely important question when you evaluate it from a design perspective. These are the questions you need to ask.

If the design philosophy was to allow 5 levels of loremaster with 30 bard song why wouldn't they just let you do 25/5 loremaster? If your concerns are dispels, well, 28 cl is definitely better than 22 (+3 from bard thanks to no divine dip) but they are both pretty iffy.

If the design philosophy was to allow 30 (group) bard song with 4 ab a round, why is this the only way you can do that?

If the philosophy was to allow divine feats with bard, why wouldn't they have a dip for that?

You can go on and on with the same point.

Now you can say it was a happy accident, but it's clear it was an accident. And if this is the world we want to live in, I'm cool with going forward with it, but I hope the devs make sure they want to go down this route before it becomes more ubiquitous than it already is. Because the minute someone realizes they can go weaponsmaster bard evangelist, it may start getting real. Or it may not, I can't say for certain. But either way if the thought process is "the band aid has to be ripped off eventually" I have to ask, why are we waiting. And that is ultimately the answer this thread is searching for.

And just to respond to the whole "pvp experience is everything" bit, yeah, I will be the first to admit I am lacking these days in that regard. I just don't find it fun, so if it's not relevant to the story I would rather roleplay the conflict than throw down. But I have also played this game for going on 24 years now, starting on a pvp arena server, so it's not like I don't know anything. And through theory crafting I've made some pretty big predictions of what was to come that came true (as well as a few wild misses, oops!) not because I'm some genius, but because at its core this is a game of numbers. And the numbers will always tell you more than a few dozen antidotal pvp experiences ever could. So yeah, Theory crafting isn't everything, but it's also very far from nothing.

As a side note, why did you pick a quote from a portion of a post that had nothing to do with the topic on hand? I'm sure it was innocent, but I always get a little leery when people do that because it feels like you are trying to paint my opinion in a certain light that doesn't fit the actuality of it.

[Rei_Jin]

Bard 20/Weaponmaster 7/ Evangelist 3 or Bard 22/Weaponmaster 5/Evangelist 3 are outright terrible builds.

No casting, so you're a mundane.

Your bardsong is either level 26 or 28, so it's functional.

You're burning 6 feats to get into WM, and you need Blindfight, and Improved Crit on top, at a minimum, which is 8 feats, requiring a Human and giving you no spare feats pre-epic, or burning an epic feat if you take any other race that doesn't get a relevant bonus feat.

You have no room for Power Attack/Divine Might/Divine Shield, unless you're burning epic feats for those.

You have no room for Knockdown or Improved Knockdown, which are basically pre-requisites.

You have Expertise, but not Improved Expertise.

Your AB is terrible.

Sure, you could do it, same as you could make a Wizard 10/Cleric 10/Fighter 10, but why would you???

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Your bardsong is either level 26 or 28, so it's functional.

This is what you are missing, which is cool, I missed it at the start of this thread myself. 3 levels of evangalist can add 11 levels of bard song. That means you can go 19 bard/x/3 evangelist and still have 30 bard song, as long as you have divine favor scrolls on hand.

[Rei_Jin]

I didn’t think it worked from scrolls, only from spellbook

[Kythana]

Evangelist in its current form has been around for almost 3 years.

It is talked to death in any build discussions about bard.

It's been known about; This isn't some crazy 'accident' that was just discovered now.

Healing domain nerf specifically came as a result of it. It has its trade-offs. There isn't some busted WM build with it.

[Cnaym]

I played a caster bard too. She did well as a support but the lack of options made playing her get very repetitive. The comment on AC confuses me, as she still had 58 AC and 500s hp. For the class, 58 AC is without Improved Expertise, as casting cancels IE. What is meant by it not being a consideration, so that I can understand what's being described?

I mean that as a speedy caster you're likely in trouble if you get hit at all, bard gets a song that keeps them fast and multiple ways to slow down others. Playing defensively therefore is always a "don't get hit" instead of a "risk the dice" game in me head.

As for the clearly bonkers and broken bard version, it has to be the INT bard. Your combat is scroll based anyway, your song level will hit full 30 and you get the bank account to steamroll most poor souls in PVP.

I echo the other guy: "INT bard" doesn't define the build itself. Is this a 30 bard? LM bard? What makes it superior to doing a corner-sneaking CON-maxed LM/bard scroll warrior?

There are multiple ways go about it, 30 int bard for appraisal is the most straight forwards, but I have seen it combined with LM, Luck Cleric or even earth gnasi to increase the chances of finding rare ores.
It's not superior in a strict combat sense but the amount of coin you can easily afford to toss at oponents.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Just tossing this up here because kenji said he wanted a post with numbers to back my claim. Feel free to yell at me some more beneath this post, but I won't be responding. My case is made and it's in the jury's hands now.

The two things that stand out.

The sail bard: 23 bard/3 evangelist/5 loremaster. (the +6 from evangelist alone may be good enough to hit song 30 if the loremaster synergies work right, if not needs divine favor)

Strengths: gets 30 bard song, gets a free +10 to sail thanks to loremaster gift of the explorer and cleric domains which equates to a +3 to their sea shanties on a ship the sea leopards' size, a +2 or +1.8 on the bigger ships. For comarison, song of the heart where you need a gazillion feats only gets +1. Gets access to loremaster epic feats as well as open lock and disable trap.

Weaknesses: Bad against dispels (though no one expects them to be good in pvp), lack of epic feats (but loremaster makes that a wash in a lot of ways).

I get that some devs don't care about sailing at all and therefore think dismissing sail balance is easy, so I ask you to defer to those who do. I also get that there are some devs that think the need for bards at all is bad design, and while I disagree simply because bards are the bridge that makes sailing work for any build, not just wisdom builds, there is a real debate there even if the solution would take a reimagining of the entire sail system to get to. But even given that, the existence of the evangelist dip doesn't make it better, it makes it worse. Now you have to have an even worse version outside of sailing of a bard, making it more miserable to play outside of sailing.

The dirge: 17 bard/3 evang/10 dirge (+11 from cleric thanks to divine favor scrolls, +2 from dirge to hit 30 bard song)

Strengths: 30 bard song combined with the powerful dirges. For comaprison, dirge singer was designed to not get higher than 22 song. Access to epic tier undead through a curse song to go with your 30 bard song, access to curses that unless this was changed are not removed by lessor restorations. Can get 30 cl vs dispels thanks to dirge counting the evange levels as well as stacking with bard.

Weaknesses: Only 4 epic feats, though I suppose you can count the mummy dust song as a fifth.

I'm just going to let this speak for itself.

As a final note, on behalf of all these folks that think I'm a fun killer and hate people for making lots of gold, I think that maybe what folks are telling you by finding ways to skirt the cross-class synergy limitations of bard song that maybe bard needs some help. And while this may be surprising to read for some of my biggest detractors, I'm fine with that. It just shouldn't come at the cost of some random class splash, especially something that is so loaded with rp expectations as a cleric. And it certainly shouldn't dirge, janked up sail bard, or bust for an entire class.

[But Will It Blend]

I think you're forgetting that there are assassin options available as a possibility, and it's not like melee bards have never been possible. They might not be the most penultimate powerful things in existence but I've seen them do well. There are more options than just these two, these are just the ones where you get full 30 song and either support cookies or murder cookies.

[AstralUniverse]

All op evangelist build have been gutted one by one into the brink of extinction, unless you know any ones left which are still op and have dodged the radar for 3 years? You wouldnt be making this thread if you had secret tech so the answer is probably no.

Evangelist is perfectly fine and balanced.
I was one of the first adopters of melee bard with evangelist dip back when bard was even stronger than it is now (with bigger skill bonuses and healing domain), and even then it was mostly just an arena build that shines in tournaments and gives everyone 20 sail on boat. My most comical moment was me getting 1shot by a 500 damage flurry from a 2handed wm that didnt spend 120 years winding up his ac. The most fun evangelist dip is the bonesmith build (pm with maul) which I played also before the healing domain nerf. Now idk if I wanna play 430 hp melee build without healing domain, pm or not, but still definitely fun and balanced build.

Evangelist is hoenstly one of the most fun additions to this game in modern times.

[Kenji]

Evangelist dip is now a thing and I'm not changing the interaction any time Soon™ (Another dev who is well versed in Bard and Evangelist might)

[AstralUniverse]

So probably no one untill both of these classes are reworked from the root again in 5-10 years. Good.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Evangelist is hoenstly one of the most fun additions to this game in modern times.

I guess if you find some weird dip that happened by mistake that cheats on a lot the limitations initially imposed on bards to be fun, who I am to tell you that you're wrong. And I get why you and the other 5% of the server who put a premium on what things do in pvp don't see it as an issue, even if the dirge cheat seems pretty strong to me, but to someone story driven with their characters like me the idea of having to dip cleric of all things or be inferior to the ship bard who has max song, +10 hard sail, and the ability to summon...yeah, no thanks, this made a class that could probably use some sprucing more streamlined.

That being said, I made my case, no one seems to care, so evil bards rejoice. You can have max bard song, max cl against dispels, and epic tier undead. You all keep killing my characters with these funky changes (though this one is on me for not knowing about the evangelist nonsense despite it being around for years) but jokes on you, I got ideas for days.