New AP / Award Changes Feedback

[Choofed]

Hey Guys,

With the new AP-based award system now live, I wanted to take a moment to compare it with the previous one looking at the numbers, the philosophy, and what it means for different types of players.

The Old System
In the old system, earning awards was tied to deleting high-level characters. The breakdown looked like this:

• Level 16–20: 25% chance for a Normal, 75% Minor

• Level 21–25: 10% Greater, 35% Normal, 55% Minor

• Level 26–30: 5% Major, 20% Greater, 75% Normal

A lot of factors influenced this as well, mostly gold on the character. But ignoring that factor. If you were consistent and efficient, you could reasonably grind one character per month to the 26–30 range, delete it, and roll the dice.

Using the 26-30 range, the average value of a sacrifice came to roughly 195,000 AP.

Pair this with the timers:

• Major: 3 months

• Greater & Normal: 2 months

• Minor: 1 Month.

You come out with a average of 50,000 AP per month if you were producing normals. But it's higher, because you had a decent chance of massively cashing out with a higher roll. In the old system, timers adjusted, you were earning a potential of ~ 152,667 a month assuming you were not hitting gold cap

The New System

The new system replaces character deletion rolls with Award Points (AP) earned primarily through time played:

10 AP per minute, capped at 36,000 AP/month
80% goes to your character, 20% to your account

You unlock the character’s AP via Epic Sacrifice, and with consideration to timers if you're continuously sacrificing you're looking at roughly 10,850AP/Month.

On average, earning you 46,850 AP a month.

The Problem

While the new system is going to make a consistent and accessible source of award points, and incentivise the release of old characters, the reality is it's going to be significantly harder for new players - especially if they're going after greaters or majors.

• You're looking at over 2 months on average for just a normal award. (Cost 100,000 AP)

• You're looking at over 17 months on average for a major award. (Cost 800,000)

Meanwhile, legacy players who already hold awards or had characters with long playtime are getting a massive head start under the conversion system. Their past time is being retroactively valued at the new AP rates which are high and stored for future access. That creates a deep inequality between old and new players. Vets already have the AP, new players aren't getting the same output.

We're looking at yields of AP of only about 30% of the old system. No one wanted awards to be harder in the new system, just a stronger incentive for playing a well RP'ed legacy character and putting them to bed instead of making new burner characters.

The numbers need to be moved so the yields look a bit more similar. This is far too harsh on new players. Don't punish legacy, just increase new system yields - by a lot. The system is good, I like it, it achieves the objectives of rewarding rolling a age old character. But the numbers are off.

[Kythana]

+1.

I also think the numbers look a little low. I think 10-12 months to a major would be a far more satisfying outcome.

Unrelated to actual numbers, but I do not like this being affected by RPR, and I really do not like DM awarded AP.

In theory, I understand why that was included, but I don't think it's going to have a good long term impact. Players will be encouraged to bludgeon their way into DM events in order to get 'noticed', so they can get extra points. These types of actions are already incredibly frustrating as is, and incentivizing it further makes me suspect.

[Choofed]

+1.

I also think the numbers look a little low. I think 10-12 months to a major would be a far more satisfying outcome.

Unrelated to actual numbers, but I do not like this being affected by RPR, and I really do not like DM awarded AP.

In theory, I understand why that was included, but I don't think it's going to have a good long term impact. Players will be encouraged to bludgeon their way into DM events in order to get 'noticed', so they can get extra points. These types of actions are already incredibly frustrating as is, and incentivizing it further makes me suspect.

Yeah DMs should simply not be allowed to award AP. It's simply not a resource I trust in a subjective process that could be unfairly dispensed. AP should strictly be a automated process.

In a hypothetical, I'm new I play Fred for 3 months. I play him to 30, so on. On average I get with the D100 roll I get 15,000 AP.
I also by playing him got 36,000 AP per month.
For roughly 3 months of play, I... just get a normal for rolling my first character. If a player joins who decides their true calling was always to be playing a gnoll here they're stuck with them for a long while before they get there. And even then, we're not considering the pain of gearing.

Overall, I think the best solution here is to keep roughly similar epic sacrifice yeilds for AP.

An idea had was making the epic sacrifice system a % chance of getting a multiplier on your existing character AP's.
So there's a chance you hit some crazy 5% chance of a X5 multiplier so Fred who did a 180 hours over 3 months aquiring 106,000 AP of which 84,800 is embedded into the character may just luck out on getting 424,000 by hitting the epic sacrifice X5 multipler. Rewarding playtime, while also incentivising rolling.

Right now the current system has rewarded old timers, and crushed newbies. I've got my major, as a disclaimer for those wondering my stake here. I just think we need to consider we've released a system that's just made the oldest players way better off and some with millions of AP points stacked up have the chance to play multiple back on back majors while new players will have to grind for more than one and a half years for the same oppertunity while continuously sacrificing toons.

[But Will It Blend]

Just going to throw it out there. I do actually quite like the change. I think it's 100% a step in the right direction. I know the numbers are likely going to need tweaking over time to make sure things make sense.

I made a joke at one point to myself that this will open the floodgates for a 'zoo'. Which I will call Irongron's Flood, except instead of 2 of every animal it's 6 million Kenku. I don't think this is a bad thing either though. I think people who are excited to try a different character will get to. Some will realize a special character race doesn't make a huge difference, others will love it, other yet may have an incentive to roll characters lingering because there was never another chance they'd hit that 5%. Who knows!

Overall, I'll wait and see how the numbers turn out. I say this as somebody with like. 41k points and the farthest away from anything because I got unlucky with timing of some things. (This is fine honestly). I'd rather the first step in the right direction and seeing it evolve over time than keeping clutched to the same system where we all get to play a gatcha game except instead of RNG giving us a waifu it gives us a normal reward to be used for ????? maybe a meme height increase.

Thank you for implementing this.

[Anomandaris]

Definitely an improvement from the old system, which was entirely RNG. Personally, I’m OK with it taking a while to get an award. It’s a privilege and nice to have not something that should be expected in order to enjoy the server. I’ve been here for about nine years rolled 7 to 8 at 26+ and only ever gotten normals.

I am, however, not a fan of the RPR impact on the points. RPR in my opinion is largely driven by self promoting and your own friends recommending you. Like someone else said DM points also pose some potential concerns and should be highly limited or regulated given how that might play out unfairly.

All in all, I’m excited to actually have a chance to play a greater or major assuming I get to use my legacy points anytime soon before things get adjusted because there’s such an influx of people playing awards that I get priced out. Good implementation thanks for the hard work to overhaul this system.

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

I like points, even if I got scammed out 1.6 Million points (pls... pls devs... pls....) So even as a top 0.5% of players - if I make 3 chars and they don't pan out, I'm down to 20%. And then I do that once more, I am down to less. And if I do one greater ontop - I am down to what a new player is. Even on a good run of 4-5 months I'd be out of points by the same time next year, after what is effectively 6 years of playing on arleith and thousands of hours.

If I make a bunch of normal-tier chars, like a bonus language, getting that still takes me years to generate, slowly depleting my great pool of 3 million points. I fully assume the majors will also just start costin 1.2 million or something.

What you are not attributing here is both the retention of AP via rolls (partial refunds and all that), the 80/20 split that you get, and most important the amount of AP you get from stuff passively going forward.
I dont think you're correct that the refund will actually 'generate more' especially since a lot of normals are, frankly, generally invisible (or not worth a lot). Oh, a language. Oh a wild elf. That's not that wild, and it slowly decreases the pool.

RPR probably doesn't matter, its just faster to the cap of 60 hours. Unless they get 30% on every single AP gain.

I dont know, maybe after 6-7 years of playing arelith and 5000+ hours I get to play a fire genasi three times in a row. The new players will get there too.

[But Will It Blend]

Yeah seeing the RPR aspect I am not as much a fan of that aspect. 10-20% faster isn't small. That's the equivalent of like 100-150 days of time. I know a lot of people who are incredible RPers who just never go past 20 even with recommendations and even some stuck at 10 after a good deal of time despite putting in time, effort, etc.

And yeah hopefully there will end up being new options for normal awards that people will be incentivized to take otherwise I honestly doubt people will waste the points on them. I think most people I spoke to used normals purely because they had to.

HAVING SAID THAT. I need to remind myself and others this is the first step in making things better. So. Let's wait to see how it changes.

[Iceborn]

Do keep in mind:
One of the main goals of this update is to remove the gambling component of the award roll, and the active 'grinding' component.
Any change you see in the system will probably aim to remove any 'action' that directly adds significant amounts of AP, and if a gamestyle surges with the goal of maximizing AP, it will be addressed and adjusted accordingly.

RPR was originally a lot more impactful in the original design, but we reduced it dramatically to 10/15/20% in the end. With that said, whether you love, or more probably hate the RPR system, it is an integral part of Arelith, and striving to earn a better RPR is part of the game.

Likewise, the numbers, values, prices, thresholds, caps and averages will be adjusted accordingly as we gather more data.

[Subtext]

RPR was originally a lot more impactful in the original design, but we reduced it dramatically to 10/15/20% in the end. With that said, whether you love, or more probably hate the RPR system, it is an integral part of Arelith, and striving to earn a better RPR is part of the game.

Maybe it's just a gut feeling or intrinisc apprehension but there's something about the idea of aspiring for a better RP grade that makes my skin crawl, especially if such is intended as part of the game.
I simply cannot shake the image of a group of people circling a roleplayer, making "hmhm" noises and pinning an award on them like some prized oxen.

That said, I actually genuinely do like the new system and look forward what else will be done with it with the time to come! The big question mark would have been the time gating but I think an average of two hours per day is a fair way to limit the point gain.
Perhaps a consideration could be made for letting the unused allowance each month carry over to some extent as to cover things like vacations or particularly busy work periods or similar things.

As for the actual amounts gained (also from other sources) and time invested, I suppose time will tell, especially after the initially expected zoo rush eventually dies down.

As others mentioned, I share the reservations about the RPR cookie and especially points awarded via DM consideration. And not because I would immediately expect favoritism, but plainly due to things like playtimes or playstyle - some people are simply much more confident than others when it comes to capturing DM attention. And having the wrong playtimes would just suck for that.

[But Will It Blend]

Do keep in mind:
One of the main goals of this update is to remove the gambling component of the award roll, and the active 'grinding' component.
Any change you see in the system will probably aim to remove any 'action' that directly adds significant amounts of AP, and if a gamestyle surges with the goal of maximizing AP, it will be addressed and adjusted accordingly.

RPR was originally a lot more impactful in the original design, but we reduced it dramatically to 10/15/20% in the end. With that said, whether you love, or more probably hate the RPR system, it is an integral part of Arelith, and striving to earn a better RPR is part of the game.

Likewise, the numbers, values, prices, thresholds, caps and averages will be adjusted accordingly as we gather more data.

Is this also coming with some kind of a guarantee that RPR will be better monitored across multiple time zones and other such things so people don't fall through the cracks? It just feels very weird that you sort of need to hope you're noticed by the right people to be allowed to benefit from a system.

Edit: As a case in point. I know a lot of people have told me they will never apply for higher RPR, because the idea of people they don't know judging if they are worthy of an advancement and criticizing the way they play the game and RP is something they would genuinely just never have to deal with. And they aren't alone.

I'm not trying to say "DMS JUST PROMOTE THEIR FRIENDS!!!!" I have no evidence to support this, and I don't believe it's true. I just think this system is inherently flawed for reasons beyond what you might think.

[DM Herald]

Do keep in mind:
One of the main goals of this update is to remove the gambling component of the award roll, and the active 'grinding' component.
Any change you see in the system will probably aim to remove any 'action' that directly adds significant amounts of AP, and if a gamestyle surges with the goal of maximizing AP, it will be addressed and adjusted accordingly.

RPR was originally a lot more impactful in the original design, but we reduced it dramatically to 10/15/20% in the end. With that said, whether you love, or more probably hate the RPR system, it is an integral part of Arelith, and striving to earn a better RPR is part of the game.

Likewise, the numbers, values, prices, thresholds, caps and averages will be adjusted accordingly as we gather more data.

Is this also coming with some kind of a guarantee that RPR will be better monitored across multiple time zones and other such things so people don't fall through the cracks? It just feels very weird that you sort of need to hope you're noticed by the right people to be allowed to benefit from a system.

Edit: As a case in point. I know a lot of people have told me they will never apply for higher RPR, because the idea of people they don't know judging if they are worthy of an advancement and criticizing the way they play the game and RP is something they would genuinely just never have to deal with. And they aren't alone.

I'm not trying to say "DMS JUST PROMOTE THEIR FRIENDS!!!!" I have no evidence to support this, and I don't believe it's true. I just think this system is inherently flawed for reasons beyond what you might think.

Speaking on this from the DM end, I have seen maybe two people be put up by a DM for an RPR promotion vote in my entire time on the DM team. The whole "DMs put up their own friends for RPR votes" simply does not happen. The best way to get higher RPR is to send in an application for it. With our current available manpower, we simply do not have the time to randomly hop between players and spectate RP.

As for DMs having the ability to grant AP, every time this is done, there will be scrutiny from both other DMs and members of the admin team. We are well aware that having such an ability could become liable to abuse, and there are systems in place to ensure abuses do not happen.

[But Will It Blend]

Do keep in mind:
One of the main goals of this update is to remove the gambling component of the award roll, and the active 'grinding' component.
Any change you see in the system will probably aim to remove any 'action' that directly adds significant amounts of AP, and if a gamestyle surges with the goal of maximizing AP, it will be addressed and adjusted accordingly.

RPR was originally a lot more impactful in the original design, but we reduced it dramatically to 10/15/20% in the end. With that said, whether you love, or more probably hate the RPR system, it is an integral part of Arelith, and striving to earn a better RPR is part of the game.

Likewise, the numbers, values, prices, thresholds, caps and averages will be adjusted accordingly as we gather more data.

Is this also coming with some kind of a guarantee that RPR will be better monitored across multiple time zones and other such things so people don't fall through the cracks? It just feels very weird that you sort of need to hope you're noticed by the right people to be allowed to benefit from a system.

Edit: As a case in point. I know a lot of people have told me they will never apply for higher RPR, because the idea of people they don't know judging if they are worthy of an advancement and criticizing the way they play the game and RP is something they would genuinely just never have to deal with. And they aren't alone.

I'm not trying to say "DMS JUST PROMOTE THEIR FRIENDS!!!!" I have no evidence to support this, and I don't believe it's true. I just think this system is inherently flawed for reasons beyond what you might think.

Speaking on this from the DM end, I have seen maybe two people be put up by a DM for an RPR promotion vote in my entire time on the DM team. The whole "DMs put up their own friends for RPR votes" simply does not happen. The best way to get higher RPR is to send in an application for it. With our current available manpower, we simply do not have the time to randomly hop between players and spectate RP.

As for DMs having the ability to grant AP, every time this is done, there will be scrutiny from both other DMs and members of the admin team. We are well aware that having such an ability could become liable to abuse, and there are systems in place to ensure abuses do not happen.

As I said. I am not saying this happens. I don't believe it does. My issue was something else.

[DM Herald]

To add on the RPR explanation - whenever we give a rejection, we will try our best to identify points that the player could improve on, and what we think is lacking to move on to the next level of RPR.

[But Will It Blend]

To add on the RPR explanation - whenever we give a rejection, we will try our best to identify points that the player could improve on, and what we think is lacking to move on to the next level of RPR.

And my issue is that a lot of people simply do not feel comfortable applying for RPR increases, to have people they don't know judge their playing or how they RP. I do have to ask if you read what I said when I posted it.

Edit: Other reasons might be players could be fantastic but aren't confident in their own skill, or don't think they are worthy of a much higher rank. Or a million other reasons why they wouldn't ever apply for one. I don't know where you got my post suggesting I think DM favoritism as a I thing. I was explicitly pointing out that I don't think that's an issue and that instead maybe there a bunch of other issues.

[Critique]

Is this also coming with some kind of a guarantee that RPR will be better monitored across multiple time zones and other such things so people don't fall through the cracks? It just feels very weird that you sort of need to hope you're noticed by the right people to be allowed to benefit from a system.

Edit: As a case in point. I know a lot of people have told me they will never apply for higher RPR, because the idea of people they don't know judging if they are worthy of an advancement and criticizing the way they play the game and RP is something they would genuinely just never have to deal with. And they aren't alone.

I'm not trying to say "DMS JUST PROMOTE THEIR FRIENDS!!!!" I have no evidence to support this, and I don't believe it's true. I just think this system is inherently flawed for reasons beyond what you might think.

Yeah I've been at 10 rpr for years, I play almost exclusively late night Pacific time and there's just very few DMs on to review us, and not nearly as much opportunity to get involved for that matter so the RP is "take what you can get". Still fun when it works out but I don't get to see the server when it's really cooking very often.

I just figure that's how it is and don't care about boosting it any more but it would be nice to be able to use the epic sacrifice system, even if it was capped like only minor or normal prizes available or something.

[30 RANGER FROM THE MOON]

With that said, whether you love, or more probably hate the RPR system, it is an integral part of Arelith, and striving to earn a better RPR is part of the game.

it's not.

this is a can of worms, but in a sentence: you do not want to provide objective incentive for people to "improve" at something that is highly subjective.

not only that, but if your goal is to improve the quality of roleplay (whatever that means), it cannot be done with mechanics, numbers, or anything in that realm; if you dangle a carrot, people will gamify it. any time there is a mechanic deeply tied to the RP, it gets gamified, and the RP suffers for it.

the examples go on for ages: altar consecration checking, -date deity checking, awkward talk about dweomercraft, property sign checking, talk about how you cant kill X or Y because they're writ workers. (RPR 30 and 40 players do this. ive seen it. [and no, reporting these people and flooding the DMs with more tickets isnt a solution])

if you want RP to be better, it has to be a cultural thing.

[The GrumpyCat]

Under the old system, you had a 10% chance of rolling a major, IF you were doing it on a level 26 pc, and with 1 mil gold in the bank
Most likely you'd get a normal, and a 2 month cooldown
So, lets say that's ten rolls = 20 months.
That's just shy of two years for a new player.
And that's if the player met rule of average, not accounting for rolling of greaters (which means a longer cooldown) the fact not every pc will have a million gold, will be able to level that fast, or will be that lucky.

As for the other arguments re RPB (and, more pertinently the giving out of points, which honestly is something I CHAMPIONED hard for this system I think it's one of the best parts of it!)

We are a roleplay server.

To be a roleplay server we have to enforce roleplay.

To enforce roleplay, to some degree, means, yes, judging roleplay.

I would rather, as part of that, we enforce roleplay via awards and encouragements, as much if not more than punish.

Consider: Would you rather have a roleplay server of high quality because poor roleplay is punished? Because Dms who see poor roleplay forcefully ban, delete, or otherwise penalize characterts due to their judgements?

Or would you rather have one where Dms encourage good roleplay via small awards, pushing people to be better?

One of the key issues with the old system was people complaining that roleplay basically wasn't taken into account at all. That You could have someone who was a truly amazing pc, who could make a Vampire, or Tiefling, or what have you concept really shine, but they'd have little chance than a person who just got lucky on their first roll.

On the other hand, the concern that people who are in poor time zones don't get as many cookies is valid. But I assure you the amount of points Dms will give out is probably going to be fairly minor over all, and everyone still has an equal ability to get the awards they want.

Yes, some people are getting things a bit faster. So?

Rather than tearing down what they have, why not rejoice for them? Why not take it as an opportunity to consider how to improve? Or don't! You don't have to! You can still play just fine on arelith without being Teh Best Evar! You just get your awards a teeny bit later than somoene who gets a few points more though Dm noticing. The difference is never going to be mindblowingly huge - we have guidelines to make sure it's not.

This system is a compromise. Deal with it.

[Richrd]

Hey.

Some people will not like me bringing it up. But it's the truth. Throughout most of the NWN community Arelith has always been ridiculed for it's award system. Due to how people were rewarded, for what can be summed up as circle grinding and making throwaway characters only with the intent to roll them as soon as they hit level 26.

Now: I am not going to judge anyone for doing this. I myself sometimes wish I had joined the masses of people who, back in the day, when it was still possible, played OOCly organized groups of goblin casters with the gift of minus ECL.

Those got removed for obvious reasons. Then the award cooldown got implemented for equally obvious reasons.

But this has always been a problematic part of what is supposed to be a RP focused server. And while I am always a very critical person, I can fully admit that this change is a good one. Finally. Good job, Arelith team.

People can now start to not feel bad about playing characters with proper longevity. Slow-brews over mayflies.

And just in case anyone dislikes this new system so much that they'd rather go back to the previous one?
Genuinely; your opinion is garbage.

[But Will It Blend]

I don't think anyone is saying the new system is bad, or wrong, or that we should revert. I think I was taking issue with RPR.

I don't think DM's handing out rewards of small bits of AP for events, or fun things is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. My issue is more that there's simply a lot of people who are not going to end up taking part in the RPR system which has now been made even more impactful when it's kind of always been a problem for a good amount of people on the server.

Should RP have an impact in things? Yeah. Is RPR a good system by which to judge it? I will never in good conscience agree.

[AnselHoenheim]

The lack of transparency combined with the RPR it is subjected by the opinion of several other -players- that are actually, now, DMs, of how RP needs to be done in the server.

And this is now tied to the award system in terms of small boons pretending it's not an advantage, and I'm not even talking the fact that the team can actually deliver AP to the people under, of course, their subjective idea of that you have done a good RP.

This is simple facts.

[Xerah]

Big fan of the new system, not that I'm actually looking to play any major characters any time soon. No system is going to be perfect and everyone is always going to find something to complain about but I think this is a good middle ground. Some come out better and some come out worse. But looking ahead to more than what I get myself, it's a vast improvement to not need rolling/luck/grinding anywhere near that which was required before if that was your goal.

I'm looking forward to adjusting things so like 7% height isn't 100,000 points and can be made something more reasonable like 10k (or whatever). Same with races being able to be dynamically adjusted depending on population. This should also allow some neat new rewards as well (similar to noble/languages/height).

[But Will It Blend]

Big fan of the new system, not that I'm actually looking to play any major characters any time soon. No system is going to be perfect and everyone is always going to find something to complain about but I think this is a good middle ground.

I'm looking forward to adjusting things so like 7% height isn't 100,000 points and can be made something more reasonable like 10k (or whatever). Same with races being able to be dynamically adjusted depending on population. This should also allow some neat new rewards as well (similar to noble/languages/height).

I agree. It'd be nice if/when this is separated from tiers and things are just given costs.

[PowerWord Rage]

Where's my polling? I want to vote!
Cast one vote into the approval box

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The post said the numbers will be adjusted over time, so I will reserve final judgement for that, but so far it looks good to me. I actually really like that it's tied to the dms and rpr, even though my rpr is 20 and I never interact with the dms in game. It's a positive incentive for doing things the right way, and arelith needs more of that.

And for those of you worried about potential favoritism, trust me, you are doing more harm to yourself worrying about it than any bit of favoritism that slips through the cracks could do. And while there is probably no checks and balances system I could 100% feel confident in, the personal pride of doing ones best to be fair and balanced is something I do have faith that all the dms have. Speaking from experience on a server that had all the dm things people hate (loot more powerful than you could find in game, dm plots, applications) I was 100% more self-critical about anything I would do for my friends then I was for people I didn't know or actively didn't like, because it was important to me to do it the right way. And I'm sure that's part of every dm on arelith, even if they don't always stick the landing because the human condition gets in the way.

[Paint]

Got rid of the RNG, rewards consistent and good roleplay. Might be frustrating for people who have less playtime, though. Not sure there's an easy way to address that. Overall, I like this more.