Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

[-XXX-]

You could slap all the specialist perks on the vanilla wizard & the end result would still likely be something I'd pick cleric over ATM.

A big part of the issue are also nullification gems and chronovodian grimoires that give access to timestop and mord for very little build investment. Sure, they might not be as potent as the cast versions of the spells, but they're still good enough especially for builds that then can afford to hyperfocus on other things instead.

[But Will It Blend]

I also entirely agree that specialist wizard feels like a trap.

When I look at what it gets even just compared to a cleric there is absolutely no contest. Most of these picks are incredibly bad for many reasons with only 2-3 being worth choosing where it's not shooting yourself in the foot. Meanwhile you have cleric which gets to pick from a plethora of options, gets 2 really cool spells or abilities (Often with shorter cooldowns than wizards)

Then they get a whole list of spells and other goodies and the only problem they have? Is that they have to choose two options from a pile of good ones, which is honestly a nice problem to have. I've leveled a wizard, and I've leveled a cleric. And I always feel vastly more helpful and impactful than a wizard does and it's not even close.

Just took magic domain on the cleric and found myself doing so much more.

Spell clutch at level 21 for generalists refreshing all level 1 and 2 spells also just feels like a joke. What spells are you using at level 21, in epic level dungeons, where getting back a few magic missiles, or bulls strengths are going to be some super impactful thing?

IDK I feel like I will stop posting in this thread as I'm really just pulling this apart constantly and I don't think I'm personally being constructive anymore. Just getting more frustrated that wizard/sorcerer are so atrocious.

[Anomandaris]

Illusion spec is def worth playing as is div spec and maybe abj. The others are meh and fairly trash. Sig spells being changed to actually worth while spells would help a little. But there are some serious mechanical benefits to a couple relative to generalist. I’ll almost never play a generalist personally in the current state.

[PowerWord Rage]

Specialist abju is good since it offers free feat, arcane defense : abju, which is a mandatory if you're multi-classing a non caster class.
Ironically, this specialist is the best pick for necromancers since they can do without conjuration, after all the undead are necromancy

Specialist Div...enough said, +7 premo, buffed true sight and scry...even if you don't have illusion spell, it's tempting enough to pick this. And let's not forget Predator spell offers concealment if you go epic nec focus

Specialist Illusion is probably quite clearcut since there're not really much useful enchantment spells in general.

Specialist Necromancy is kinda...awkward. Sure, the Spell resistance is good for undead which a level 30 necromancer can probably summon without getting WOF away by scroll. But...without divination spell is a major ouch so, i am not certain about the trade off.

Specialist Conjuration...is probably facing the same issue since, you will be barred from transmutation and that includes haste and animal spells which is enough of a reason to think twice.

Because of the existence of Mords with highest CL level that contains both breach and dispels and instant Timestop, Wizards are generally more of an upper tier in PVP than Clerics though.

Tbh...if i were to classify based on difficulty level out of 5 stars-
Martial is generally 1 star
Wizard will probably be 4 stars

[Paint]

It's a shame that evocation specialist is a bad trade because you do get a pretty nice dopamine rush out of bursting enemies down with strictly free 9th level spells. Works okay if you go with undead summons to tank, but I've already gotten on my soapbox about how stupid it is that some of the wizard specs only work half-decent if you accept the mantle of Necromancer -- not because I'm allergic to tradeoffs, but because if I'm going to throw my whole identity into being an evocation specialist and then become known as necromancer first anyways, what's the point, you know?

The obvious and correct solution of course is to make summons do bad damage -- even worse --, buff wizard HP and survivability, and give options that make surviving concentration checks a lot more likely. I would 100% take feats that make my wizard less good at some wizard stuff to be better at other wizard stuff, but ESF(Concentration) just isn't cutting it.

...As a side note, last time I leveled an evocation wizard on Skal, I ended up ironically tanking for other members of my party quite often because -they- somehow had less AC than I did, and my base dex was 10 so you know, it wasn't that I was making a limber wizard.

[Scurvy Cur]

The quick breakdown on specialist wizard is:

Ench: unbelievably good, but a lot of players are going to find it a little dull. Excellent for solo pve, good use in any group pvp. Gives up Illu, but you can work around the lack of imp invis, which is the spell you miss most. Probably the strongest wizard option.

Div: Pretty good, you'll get a lot of use out of the TS signature spell, and the buffed TS. +7 premo is sometimes quite nice. Like ench specialist, it gives up illu, which as mentioned above you can deal with.

Necro: Clunky, and it's a shame imo that its just summon buffs rather than buffs to the death/debuff options in the school, so you're locking yourself in pretty hard to playing in a place where summoning undead doesn't get you crucified. That aside, it's not actually bad.

Illu focus: Ench is one of the easier schools to skip outright. Unless you're relying on it for targeting will saves (and you've got other schools that let you do this if you need it), or doing dominated critter memes, there's not really anything in ench you actually need. in exchange, you get an invis duration buff, and probably more importantly, your invis is going to be 20% more effective against enemies with blindfight (every player that makes attack rolls basically). Moving from 50% conceal to 55% conceal takes you from a 25% conceal miss rate vs targets with blindfight to 30.25% (0.55 x 0.55 = 0.3025).

The rest are flawed, very problematic schools because of what you give up. Generalist is also fairly underwhelming, because you could have been one of the specialist schools. Put another way, wizard has 3 good specializations one specialization that's playable and fine, generalist, and 3 schools I'd avoid.

[Dreams]

All the specialist options should just be added to sorcerer also. Exactly the same as Wizard, just add to that class ta daaa

[Paint]

All the specialist options should just be added to sorcerer also. Exactly the same as Wizard, just add to that class ta daaa

A lazy way to do this would just be to give sorcerer 1:1 cl with the first three wizard levels.

[Dreams]

But a much better way would be to script it into sorc properly. Also giving them a +3CL at 21 allows for multiclassing options that don’t completely nuke their CL.

[-XXX-]

The specialist wizard exists because it's a feature in the core game - I'm guessing that they couldn't/didn't want to remove it on Arelith & some work went into it instead so that the choice felt less like a total trap*. The Benchmark for specialist wizard was clearly the vanilla wizard & the poor state of the vanilla wizard is the actual topic here.

That being said, I strongly believe that any attempts at "fixing" the sorcerer class by trying to mirror the specialist wizard options (if even possible) would have been a terrible terrible idea.

---

*while giving more experienced players some achievments to collect in the process, apparently.

I mean, if Arelith had Steam achievments...
"I'd rather watch than play" - start as a divination specialist wizard
"you have not seen what I have seen" - reach lvl 30 as a divination specialist wizard
"nobody saw it coming" - defeat Paush as a divination specialist wizard

[Dreams]

because…

[Cthuletta]

I'm pretty new to playing Wizard in general, never really played them on NWN before Arelith, never played them in PnP, made my first one not that long ago and currently on my second on Arelith. I definitely dipped into LM for Open Lock/Disable Trap.

I actually really like Specialist Wizard! While on other classes I've played (druids, SDs, bards, clerics), I always kinda struggled with PvE, especially after the summon and plantshape nerfs because I either found it boring or my build was too weak, I haven't really found the same issue with Wizard. I'm probably not nearly as viable as some others in solo PvP unless I catch someone with their boots off so to speak, but I'm not huge into looking for PvP anyway.

One of my biggest gripes with NWN in general has always been the combat mechanics. I just don't like them. I play other games for that fix. No server can change the basic ways that combat in this game function, so I tend to come for the stories and the RP above that because the quality on PWs is better than MMOs in my very personal opinion. That said, playing a wizard has made me enjoy PvE immensely more than before! I actually feel like I'm accomplishing something and taking part instead of just dagger-clicking the red pixels.

Would I enjoy stuff like Arcane Flux having a higher RNG? Sure! Sometimes I can get through a whole dungeon without that popping up, but overall wizard has become a favourite for me.

[-XXX-]

because…

I did explain it.
The benchmark for specialist wizards was the vanilla wizard = they've been designed around how they compare to the vanilla wizard and NOT how they compare to other classes. We could discuss the merits and flaws of this design approach all day, but at the most fundamental level it only introduces more flavours of 'meh' without addressing the 'meh' part.

I do not see how doing the same excercise with the sorcerer (that is arguably in a worse spot than the wizard) would have addressed any of its issues.

[Anomandaris]

We don’t really need stronger DC effects or to reinvent the spell book. We need just a little more reliable damage and saves to be dialed back so there is at least one point of vulnerability unlike Divine builds presently. I still don’t understand why divine save progression and ratios have not been altered all this time as they are a clear outlier and source of imbalance.

Non-divine rogues are a great example of how things should work; their will save is going to be the weak point necessitating they keep mind blank up in a fight. Meanwhile, with gear it’s fairly easy to make fortitude and reflex not worth targeting.This allows for skill expression in the game knowledge of who you’re facing and what their vulnerabilities are, preparation of one’s spell book to have tools for a variety of opponents, and execution in the moment to utilize the tools effectively. And of course, there is perfectly a reasonable counter play for the rogue in this example. If the rogue has to worry about, it’s fortitude reflex and will save that is too much as they will likely only have time to reapply one immunity spell in combat without losing action economy. Same could be said for strength based full plate wearing builds with low reflex..etc. And sure, if you want to reduce the duration of some of the “hard CC” in tandem with bringing saves down that’s fair.

You could maybe change the ratio of damage on a successful save here or there, add some dice into some spells that sorely need more damage.

And as others have said in multiple suggestions, we really need to fix how concentration checks work. It’s the single, most broken part of sorc/wiz presently (besides them being the only two d4 classes left).

Lastly, when loremaster or other things inevitably get nerfed as has been discussed, please don’t nerf casters inadvertently. For example, perhaps people think let’s limit martial access to free AC and AB by removing the Loremaster tricks like Dodge. Keep in mind this a way that many mages get some much needed extra AC and survivability. Perhaps lock it behind epic caster instead of getting rid of it as an example. Another example is the reduction of caster level on scrolls of mord disjunction. An agreeable change to limit mundane power through use of ninth circle scroll. However, perhaps a wizard (or sorc) should retain the higher caster level as scribing and using scrolls are a big part of their kit. While I was a fan of this change, it effectively made all of the mords scrolls a mage might carry to supplement its book weaker in tandem. I’m not sure that was an intended effect or just an accidental byproduct.

Incremental changes to bring them back in line not a total rework of the class itself.

[Someone Lost]

I understand invokers also need to pay components (At least in theory until Eschew in certain cases). But even then it doesn't feel as bad because focus isn't really that hard to manage when you get used to it. So you can still be devastating with lower level spells that you keep using. Support spells cost more, sure. But wizards aren't casting much more of them.

I am level 15 on the current group I'm leveling with. Even just the saves on many monsters are such already that there is an 80% chance they will succeed on any saving throw, so I'll need to get +6 more INT to maybe hit a threshold where I hit them 65% of the time? If I'm lucky? And if they aren't I guess my spells are just bad. Meanwhile the warlock doesn't care they can just spam spells until they get the effect.

And our cleric can just cast 2 spells and hit as hard as a weaponmaster while having all the power of a cleric support wise. lol.

It doesn't really get any better later your gameplay is -autocast_cantrip while your summon does the real killing, arcane flux doesn't trigger frequently enough in a long dungeon to make it fun change and even when it does that one hostile spell either won't pass the bloated mob saves or does damage that's mediocre at best.

If you want arcane caster that actually works, elementalist feels miles better than Wizard and you don't even have to deal with the annoying spells lost when swapping your staff for fishing rod... which as well could be your main weapon of choice you're that useles xD

[Xersaoth]

Since this topic was created, I have made another pure wild wizard, and I love it. In my view, it is the class I identify with the most and has the best potential for super fun roleplay. However, I have to play it knowing that I am at a huge disadvantage in PvP - basically, a prey - and the fun lasts only until the first conflict occurs. The class has improved significantly since I played it a few years ago, but I still cannot think of a way to make it a viable option, comparatively to others outlined in this topic, without introducing overpowered spells or disrupting the balance.

[But Will It Blend]

Sometimes it's not about messing around with spells as much as giving options. I wrote a general idea up for paths wizards could get similar to cleric that gives them really interesting options without inherently buffing spells

[silverpheonix]

Since this topic was created, I have made another pure wild wizard, and I love it. In my view, it is the class I identify with the most and has the best potential for super fun roleplay. However, I have to play it knowing that I am at a huge disadvantage in PvP - basically, a prey - and the fun lasts only until the first conflict occurs. The class has improved significantly since I played it a few years ago, but I still cannot think of a way to make it a viable option, comparatively to others outlined in this topic, without introducing overpowered spells or disrupting the balance.

Wild mage can absolutely rip in pvp especially with your perfect fate.

[Xersaoth]

Wild mage can absolutely rip in pvp especially with your perfect fate.

I'm sorry, but this is wishful thinking: -fate is 99% useless.

[CptnCandyass]

Wild mage can absolutely rip in pvp especially with your perfect fate.

I'm sorry, but this is wishful thinking: -fate is 99% useless.

Do not underestimate a well thought out Volcano placement.

[Anomandaris]

Wild mage can absolutely rip in pvp especially with your perfect fate.

I'm sorry, but this is wishful thinking: -fate is 99% useless.

Wild mage is, despite after many, many nerfs, still the best combo mage. It's not my cup of tea, but arguably still one of the best 1v1 duelists on the server. Fight a well piloted one, you'll see >:)

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

I'm not entirely sure what people are talking about with regards to wizards being helpless in pvp tbh.

DC spellcasting is not dead, you just should probably think more strategically about what schools you're focusing in (at MINIMUM have 2 epic spell focuses, probably 3, maybe 4 if you have room in your build concept but it's harder to do admittedly.)

I played my palemaster as a DC spellcaster. It shredded. I never once summoned undead, and in fact I was even a shadowmage, which people routinely try to tell me is terrible and awful. I rolled the character without anyone other than his allies ever finding out he was even a pale master - they just thought he was a necromancer/enchanter. But I killed multiple people with just DC spellcasting. I am now playing a new wizard that is not a PM, and is another DC spellcaster. No evocation spell focus at all.

There are spells that reduce stats/saves. There are spells that have debilitating effects that do not HAVE a save. There are spells you can spam inside of timestop, to cause a targets' saves to lower vs subsequent castings of that spell, and which will pwn them if they fail any one of the save. There are different spells available to hit all the different saving throws, so that you can hit a different one for your target depending on their build - you shouldn't, and don't need to, rely on just one or two spells. You have a bunch that do different things and can destroy different builds.

Being a wizard I think is in a good spot right now, because to be good at the class, you have to get creative and learn the breadth and depth of your spellbook.

Exactly as it should be!

[godhand-]

people talk poop on specialists wizards when transmutation wizards outperform spellswords whilst simultaneously retaining access to summons.

the real joke is sorcerer. although i've posted about that before.
(Divine DIP is not as good as anyone says it is. The numbers don't lie. Noone plays one. If it was OP strong people would play it - 1.7% of 6000 active characters are sorcerer - so 90 people play a sorcerer)

[Paint]

people talk poop on specialists wizards when transmutation wizards outperform spellswords whilst simultaneously retaining access to summons.

I'm gonna need an explanation for this one, because we've been trying to crack the formula for years here. In what ways does a transmutation wizard outperform a spellsword?

[Naghast]

people talk poop on specialists wizards when transmutation wizards outperform spellswords whilst simultaneously retaining access to summons.

the real joke is sorcerer. although i've posted about that before.
(Divine DIP is not as good as anyone says it is. The numbers don't lie. Noone plays one. If it was OP strong people would play it - 1.7% of 6000 active characters are sorcerer - so 90 people play a sorcerer)

Sorc is is very much not fun. That's basically it.

As for transmutation specialist, i concur with Paint. Spilleth the tea.
I'm genuinely curious if it is something actually new, or something i did used before and pushed aside due to several issues it had.