Making a Case for Half-Drow

[Azensor]

The argument isnt implausible.

If we completely ignore the npc population for a moment and just talk about pc's, for two pc's to make a half-drow it would either have to be

1. One partner is enslaved, not going to happen with current rules on slave/owner romance in place
2. Raped, not going to happen because this isnt sinfar.
3. Purely Consensual for both parties..and for this one the non-drow partner is actively and willingly sleeping with a drow one of the races that is known to enslave,kill,torture. which should have ramifications on said person.

So lets stop ignoring the npc population and talk about them, and ANY of the above scenario's if anyone on the surface showed up in any of the cities with a half-drow baby in tow what do you think the npc population would do..welcome it with open arms? No. they would kill the thing.

The ONLY scenario i see a half-drow (player-character) making it to adult-hood is if its born in a crinti city, which would have to be pretty rare. So high rpr and likely limit the amount.

[Ork]

The great thing about player characters is that they're special. They've more power than a regular individual in the setting and as such have more autonomy in the setting. Let's not get bogged down in the what ifs. It'd be cool to have these stories explored. We have a lot more questionable races out there than a half-drow currently.

[Ruzuke]

The argument isnt implausible.

If we completely ignore the npc population for a moment and just talk about pc's, for two pc's to make a half-drow it would either have to be

1. One partner is enslaved, not going to happen with current rules on slave/owner romance in place
2. Raped, not going to happen because this isnt sinfar.
3. Purely Consensual for both parties..and for this one the non-drow partner is actively and willingly sleeping with a drow one of the races that is known to enslave,kill,torture. which should have ramifications on said person.

So lets stop ignoring the npc population and talk about them, and ANY of the above scenario's if anyone on the surface showed up in any of the cities with a half-drow baby in tow what do you think the npc population would do..welcome it with open arms? No. they would kill the thing.

The ONLY scenario i see a half-drow (player-character) making it to adult-hood is if its born in a crinti city, which would have to be pretty rare. So high rpr and likely limit the amount.

Can someone explain to me why this would not apply for half-orcs? Also before crinti cities existed enough how drow existed to form a city They did not just magically come into existence and form a city.

[chris a gogo]

Pretty sure they came to be because some people said they wanted to play half drow you know so you can be a cool halfelf that has an evil parent and a dusky complexion.

[Eira]

Can someone explain to me why this would not apply for half-orcs? Also before crinti cities existed enough how drow existed to form a city They did not just magically come into existence and form a city.

The original Crinti came from drow and half-elven followers of Loviatar. It was not a case of "so many half drow" they formed a city; it was an alliance for a war between drow and Loviatans, many of them half elves, that eventually the city was formed of drow, human, and elven bloodlines. So people who could have been half drow, quarter human, quarter elf, of a very niche theological situation, to speak in strictly math terms.

As for half orcs, there are several in-lore settlements of half orcs, like Palischuk in Vaasa. Half orcs have become so common, that one can be a half orc several generations removed from direct human or direct orc.

[Ruzuke]

The original Crinti came from drow and half-elven followers of Loviatar. It was not a case of "so many half drow" they formed a city; it was an alliance for a war between drow and Loviatans, many of them half elves, that eventually the city was formed of drow, human, and elven bloodlines. So people who could have been half drow, quarter human, quarter elf, of a very niche theological situation, to speak in strictly math terms.

As for half orcs, there are several in-lore settlements of half orcs, like Palischuk in Vaasa. Half orcs have become so common, that one can be a half orc several generations removed from direct human or direct orc.

That didn't respond to my statement. You explained Half Drow already existing to join up in a fight. My question was how did so many half elves get made in the first place to be able to take park. Three reasons of how half Drow could come into existence was also mentioned. I asked how those three reasons did not not apply to Half-Orcs in that person's arguments.

It was not a question on how cities formed.

[Eira]

The original Crinti came from drow and half-elven followers of Loviatar. It was not a case of "so many half drow" they formed a city; it was an alliance for a war between drow and Loviatans, many of them half elves, that eventually the city was formed of drow, human, and elven bloodlines. So people who could have been half drow, quarter human, quarter elf, of a very niche theological situation, to speak in strictly math terms.

As for half orcs, there are several in-lore settlements of half orcs, like Palischuk in Vaasa. Half orcs have become so common, that one can be a half orc several generations removed from direct human or direct orc.

That didn't respond to my statement. You explained Half Drow already existing to join up in a fight. My question was how did so many half elves get made in the first place to be able to take park. Three reasons of how half Drow could come into existence was also mentioned. I asked how those three reasons did not not apply to Half-Orcs in that person's arguments.

It was not a question on how cities formed.

Half elves, as in half human half elf. Not half human and half drow, which would be half drow. I explicitly said half elves instead of half drow, because they were half elves.

• drow and half elf loviatarans formed alliance
• they won war. drow let the loviatarans rule dambrath
• they started making half drow babies
• crinti came to be, with drow, human, and elf bloodlines

The reason those three reasons don't always apply for half orcs, is that as characters in Arelith, as through the lore, they are so very common now that there are generations upon generations of them in existence, from half orcs making kids with half orcs all across faerun.

In contrast, Crinti are a very niche and specific set of circumstances, let alone other half drow.

[Ruzuke]

The original Crinti came from drow and half-elven followers of Loviatar. It was not a case of "so many half drow" they formed a city; it was an alliance for a war between drow and Loviatans, many of them half elves, that eventually the city was formed of drow, human, and elven bloodlines. So people who could have been half drow, quarter human, quarter elf, of a very niche theological situation, to speak in strictly math terms.

As for half orcs, there are several in-lore settlements of half orcs, like Palischuk in Vaasa. Half orcs have become so common, that one can be a half orc several generations removed from direct human or direct orc.

That didn't respond to my statement. You explained Half Drow already existing to join up in a fight. My question was how did so many half elves get made in the first place to be able to take park. Three reasons of how half Drow could come into existence was also mentioned. I asked how those three reasons did not not apply to Half-Orcs in that person's arguments.

It was not a question on how cities formed.

Half elves, as in half human half elf. Not half human and half drow, which would be half drow. I explicitly said half elves instead of half drow, because they were half elves.

• drow and half elf loviatarans formed alliance
• they won war. drow let the loviatarans rule dambrath
• they started making half drow babies
• crinti came to be, with drow, human, and elf bloodlines

The reason those three reasons don't always apply for half orcs, is that as characters in Arelith, as through the lore, they are so very common now that there are generations upon generations of them in existence, from half orcs making kids with half orcs all across faerun.

In contrast, Crinti are a very niche and specific set of circumstances, let alone other half drow.

You once again skilled what I replied to:

One partner is enslaved, not going to happen with current rules on slave/owner romance in place
Raped, not going to happen because this isnt sinfar.
Purely Consensual for both parties..and for this one the non-drow partner is actively and willingly sleeping with a drow one of the races that is known to enslave,kill,torture. which should have ramifications on said person.

The above was mentioned how most half drow come into creation. This is how most half orcs came into creation as well. There is no difference. Your latest response is there are a lot of half orcs now and they can meet up date, fall in love, and make more half orc children. That is nice, but that is not how the race started to produce the numbers that are out there which was not nice and applies equally to half drow.

Most half orc PCs weren't born in Arelith so that would not apply either. All half drow did not come from one alliance either. By cannon books on Faerun and Forgotten realms, many half drow run surface settlements for Lolth's son. Facts however are not desired for this conversation, so I'll bow out.

[TheDoctor]

One partner is enslaved, not going to happen with current rules on slave/owner romance in place
Raped, not going to happen because this isnt sinfar.
Purely Consensual for both parties..and for this one the non-drow partner is actively and willingly sleeping with a drow one of the races that is known to enslave,kill,torture. which should have ramifications on said person.

The above was mentioned how most half drow come into creation. This is how most half orcs came into creation as well. There is no difference. Your latest response is there are a lot of half orcs now and they can meet up date, fall in love, and make more half orc children. That is nice, but that is not how the race started to produce the numbers that are out there which was not nice and applies equally to half drow.

Most half orc PCs weren't born in Arelith so that would not apply either. All half drow did not come from one alliance either. By cannon books on Faerun and Forgotten realms, many half drow run surface settlements for Lolth's son. Facts however are not desired for this conversation, so I'll bow out.

Do you have ANY idea at all whatsoever how much time has passed since... Half-orcs became a thing, till now? Arileth Half-orcs are not the monsters you are trying to make them out to be only being made from.. What was it you said? Rape? The first ones to exist, sure... An Orc being violent to a human did indeed make a half-orc... Many generations later of half-orc being a thing though? Nope! Sorry my fellow nwn lover, this is not how this works.

Can they be evil, sure they can! But WOMP womp they can be good too! Is it possible to be born from an orc coupling with a human via unsavory means? Sure! Can they also be made with love and caring relationships? You betcha they can! Because growth as a race over generations.

And this isnt just an Arileth thing either. This is a DnD thing.

[Kuma]

Do you have ANY idea at all whatsoever how much time has passed since... Half-orcs became a thing, till now? Arileth Half-orcs are not the monsters you are trying to make them out to be only being made from.. What was it you said? Rape? The first ones to exist, sure... An Orc being violent to a human did indeed make a half-orc... Many generations later of half-orc being a thing though? Nope! Sorry my fellow nwn lover, this is not how this works.
Can they be evil, sure they can! But WOMP womp they can be good too! Is it possible to be born from an orc coupling with a human via unsavory means? Sure! Can they also be made with love and caring relationships? You betcha they can! Because growth as a race over generations.

Half-orcs have been a part of Faerûn for a very long time, but
nonetheless they have never organized into a true civilization of
their own. Unique half-orcs often gain great power in their
chosen field and become well known in history texts, but their
exploits are always in the name of another people, or (more
often) isolated incidents not tied to any particular civilization.
[...]
Most half-orcs are surly individuals who endured horrible childhoods. They are too coarse and savage to fit in well with
humans, and too fragile and thoughtful to fit in with orcs. As a
result, the majority of half-orcs grow up alone and without any
influence from orc or human society
[...]
Half-orcs do not have a centralized society that they can call
their own
[...]
Half-orcs have uphill battles to fight when interacting with
most other races, since many are quick to assume that their
orcish blood carries with it an inherent savagery and cruelty.
Most half-orcs return this suspicion and trepidation when interacting with others. They make friends only with difficulty. Once
trust is established, it is often a fleeting thing that can be fractured with one misinterpreted comment.

Half-orcs may well be long-established but they are not long-established, shall we say, generationally. They do not make families. The examples of happy horc families settling down and being normal are on the sidelines. Yes, the vast majority of horcs in the Realms come from unhappy couplings. Just because the race has existed for x amount of time 'in Arelith', doesn't make that any less true.

btw we should add half drow regardless of this, i just had to correct someone

[stoneheart-]

Let's not pretend that the reason for Half-Drow's inexplicable exclusion has anything to do with SA. Half-orcs have already been mentioned, but we also have literal minotaurs and a slave system that more closely resembles a housewife's noncon BDSM fantasy than actual, chattel slavery (and DMs that do very little about this). If it was about SA, or slave rules, drow would not even be playable. Minotaurs would not be playable. Tieflings, any variant of them, would not be playable, they are also frequently born from unsavory circumstances. Daemonfey kidnap innocent sun elves to use them in their breeding programs to make fey'ri, and they're an award race. There are many unpleasant things playable on the server; so long as they are alluded to tastefully (and in my experience they have largely been) and used to build a compelling story, who cares? Players are allowed to worship evil powers such as Malcanthet and Graz'zt so long as it remains within the rules, why can we trust players with these things, but not Half-Drow? Additionally, who says half-drow must be born from SA on a server where there is a lot of contact between free people (of underdark and surface alike) and drow? Plenty of outcasted, free humans and even surfacers interact with drow on a daily basis on Arelith.

No, Half-Drow's exclusion is the result of the very weird dislike of a few people, a holdover from elder days. Still it boggles my mind that something entirely canonical and reasonable to exist on Arelith in number, such as Half-Drow, still does not exist when there are far rarer things that do (avariel, gloaming etc), or even things that were made up entirely (like half-giants). If there are concerns, we now have a point system, and they can be made a costly award race. Hell, you can even make playing a Half-Drow on the surface even costlier. There's really no reason for them not to be a thing except for the existence a small community of people who stubbornly dislike them and will make up any reason for them to not exist on Arelith.

It really doesn't bear thinking on any more deeply than simply that.

[Kuma]

stoneheart is 100% correct

[Inordinate]

There's really no reason for them not to be a thing except for the existence a small community of people who stubbornly dislike them and will make up any reason for them to not exist on Arelith.

I don't have a dog in the game but the arbitrary nature of the monster race 'system' and how it is enforced both narratively and mechanically has more relevance than any other argument presented and is compelling enough for me to make note of it. It gives a lot of dissonance to have Drow be handled a certain way and then also introduce a race that is half them and expect them to bridge the gap when the structure of the server tells you they're not meant to.

Then Sibayad comes around and I dunno man, it all stopped mattering and seems arbitrary for the sake of being arbitrary.

[stoneheart-]

Also it's hilarious to me that the case for all manner of unsavory, even SA-adjacent things being allowed to exist on Arelith are statements such as "It's the Underdark/Sibayad/Dis/whatever, evil things happen there, of course there's slavery and other depravity, stop being so sensitive".

Then Half-drow are mentioned and suddenly the reaction is "Woah now! This is a PG-13 server!" Make up your minds or at least don't insult anyone's intelligence and be honest; just say you don't like them and don't want them to be on Arelith. It's not an opinion I agree with but it's one I'm capable of respecting, as opposed to all the weasel-worded drivel I just read in this thread.

[Irongron]

Before weighing in the topic at hand, but in regard to Kuma's post regarding Half-Orc above.

I've long (and publicly) taken the later editions view of half-orcs on Arelith that the vast majority have 'ancestry' rather than one human/one orc parent. Essentially those humans with orcish blood (any noticeable degree) are called 'half-orcs' and treated as second class citizens by both.

White quoting the FR Wiki may be derided...

Half-orcs, colloquially known as half-tusks in Purskul and Zehoarastria of Amn,[1] were humanoids born of both human and orc ancestry by a multitude of means.

AND

The majority of half-orcs born since the Spellplague had half-orc parents, rather than being first generation half-orcs

(while this specifies post Spellplague it is nevertheless the approach I prefer on Arelith, think I may have even mentioned it dialog within the half-orc camp?)

Anyway, with half-drow...

As I recall (this restriction predates myself, though I do recall half-drow that led to the ban) the primary reasons why they are not permitted is that they very much subvert the us vs them aspect of drow vs surface elves, which honestly? I can very much see. To add such a race I would feel that restricting them from the UD or Myon would just be too limiting given what the whole direction of their RP would naturally be about, while having them with a foot in both worlds would inevitably lead to more chumminess between drow and their natural enemies. I just don't see it bringing anything positive - might be a decent story the first half a dozen times sure, but after that? Not so much.

[Kuma]

As I recall (this restriction predates myself,

nine years

though I do recall half-drow that led to the ban)

twenty years

half drow are fine. cmooooooooooooon

[stoneheart-]

I just don't see it bringing anything positive - might be a decent story the first half a dozen times sure, but after that? Not so much.

please, enlighten me as to what good stories gloamings bring to the world aside from somehow hanging out in broad daylight when what little lore they have that exists says they don't do that and that it hurts them.

Githyanki have been added, with greater restrictions even than any other monster race. They're monstrous in Andunor, they're monstrous on the surface.. there's almost no support for them whatsoever. I don't feel that's a valid argument to have.

Half-drow don't have to be accepted anywhere and can be discriminated against like any other race that exists. And it would be fine. That conflict is what makes the whole world interesting. I wish more races that were lower-powered and less strange than something with wings, but still divisive because of monstrous heritage, were added. Hagspawn, Half-drow, even a Draconic template, as it exists in 3e, would fit the bill.

However I accept that it will never happen. I'm mostly just tired of people pretending there's some justification for Half-drow's exclusion other than simple dislike.

[Irongron]

I just don't see it bringing anything positive - might be a decent story the first half a dozen times sure, but after that? Not so much.

please, enlighten me as to what good stories gloamings bring to the world aside from somehow hanging out in broad daylight when what little lore they have that exists says they don't do that and that it hurts them.

Githyanki have been added, with greater restrictions even than any other monster race. They're monstrous in Andunor, they're monstrous on the surface.. there's almost no support for them whatsoever. I don't feel that's a valid argument to have.

Half-drow don't have to be accepted anywhere and can be discriminated against like any other race that exists. And it would be fine. That conflict is what makes the whole world interesting. I wish more races that were lower-powered and less strange than something with wings, but still divisive because of monstrous heritage, were added. Hagspawn, Half-drow, even a Draconic template, as it exists in 3e, would fit the bill.

However I accept that it will never happen. I'm mostly just tired of people pretending there's some justification for Half-drow's exclusion other than simple dislike.

I can answer this - in regard to Gloaming and Githyanki, neither are positioned between opposing sides of a conflict really very much at the heart of the server. The whole drow vs elf thing really is central to a lot of the conflict, and adding half-drow between them is simply going to make it hard for those wishing to RP that without it beginning to see all a bit arbitary. These PCs will, quite naturally, make friends on both sides of the divide, who will also be obliged to fight each other due to server rules. It would also be a frequent point of conflict, as it was once long ago - rescue party from Myon charges down to UD to liberate their beloved half-drow daughter and friend, drow in turn raiding Myon to claim that person back. If it was one or two? Sure, it would feel special, interesting even, but make no mistake - this would be a highly popular race, and the whole 'look at me!' aspect of their existence will begin to feel extemely trying.

The discrimination you speak of will begin to feel as much based on who-you-know rather than what-you-are, and an elf in Myon raging against the presence of half-drow will repeatedly be called out as 'Racist!' by some, a line of RP I despised seeing in regard to tiefling, which will only get even worse if we add this race too.

Sure, yes, Tieflng, Githyanki, Gloaming, the inclusion of these races causes issues, but aside from using them to deploy a bit of whataboutism, the argument that they justify compounding such issues by including yet more similarly problematic races? I just don't see the logic.

Half-drow with limited number and an application? Maybe, but I still suspect the conflicts that would arise out of their addition will cause frequent headaches for DMs as the surrounding drama frequently gets out of hand.

[Dreams]

I tried to play a Githyanki. It was extremely difficult to remain true to the character and racial influences of Gith whilst in the Arelith setting and in the face of the kind of reactions you get from players. It’s either extreme hostility that goes immediately to PvP with very little if any chance to roleplay, or an apathy that feels as if it comes from the player being sick of seeing exotic zoo animals at the zoo (Andunor is the zoo). Sincerely regret using a major on it.

[TheDoctor]

Before weighing in the topic at hand, but in regard to Kuma's post regarding Half-Orc above.

I've long (and publicly) taken the later editions view of half-orcs on Arelith that the vast majority have 'ancestry' rather than one human/one orc parent. Essentially those humans with orcish blood (any noticeable degree) are called 'half-orcs' and treated as second class citizens by both.

White quoting the FR Wiki may be derided...

Half-orcs, colloquially known as half-tusks in Purskul and Zehoarastria of Amn,[1] were humanoids born of both human and orc ancestry by a multitude of means.

AND

The majority of half-orcs born since the Spellplague had half-orc parents, rather than being first generation half-orcs

(while this specifies post Spellplague it is nevertheless the approach I prefer on Arelith, think I may have even mentioned it dialog within the half-orc camp?)

If you did it must have been IC and/or before the time of the Tuskian Half-orcs being there... With that said though it does seem the half-orc area goes along mostly with your view of how it is nontheless. With that said if you do have any advice, tips, or a direction you want to nudge in please do not hesitate to reach out.