Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

[Naghast]

A honorable mention that ench spec good hope was previously referred to as mini bardsong.

[Subtext]

As a quick fix, putting at least their health and skill pool on par with others is an overdue start. Meaning d6 hit dice and 4 base skill points.

Sidenote: Sorcerers already do have 4 + int modifier ((4 + int modifier) * 4 at 1st level) skill points: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Sorcerer

You're right, they did get that bump with the big skill overhaul a few years ago.

The classes that didn't (excluding those that weren't highly reworked since) were Druid, Shaman, Monk, Shifter (lol), Favoured Soul and Wizard. And the Harper/Zhent classes.
With either of those classes I have trouble seeing why they wouldn't.

[AstralUniverse]

You're right, they did get that bump with the big skill overhaul a few years ago.

The classes that didn't (excluding those that weren't highly reworked since) were Druid, Shaman, Monk, Shifter (lol), Favoured Soul and Wizard.

Druid - animals arent known for practical skills, but they get enough for move sliently and climb, which is all they deserve.
Shaman and fs - were new at the time, and already had 'buffed' skill points compared to caster counterparts.
Shifter - lol - same as druid.
Wizard - well it's an int class. 2 skill points buff wouldnt tickle.
Monk - The devs just hate monks, but they were kind enough to give monk their 2 skill points buff recently finally. thanks guys.

[Subtext]

You're right, they did get that bump with the big skill overhaul a few years ago.

The classes that didn't (excluding those that weren't highly reworked since) were Druid, Shaman, Monk, Shifter (lol), Favoured Soul and Wizard.

Druid - animals arent known for practical skills, but they get enough for move sliently and climb, which is all they deserve.
Shaman and fs - were new at the time, and already had 'buffed' skill points compared to caster counterparts.
Shifter - lol - same as druid.
Wizard - well it's an int class. 2 skill points buff wouldnt tickle.
Monk - The devs just hate monks, but they were kind enough to give monk their 2 skill points buff recently finally. thanks guys.

The INT class argument doesn't really make that much sense. Every class scales skill points off INT. Swashbuckler got an increase too. Spellswords got reintroduced with 4 as well.

As far as the Druid argument goes, I am not sure how that holds compared to classes with...proven practical skills...such as...uh...weapon master or divine champions.

[AstralUniverse]

You're right, they did get that bump with the big skill overhaul a few years ago.

The classes that didn't (excluding those that weren't highly reworked since) were Druid, Shaman, Monk, Shifter (lol), Favoured Soul and Wizard.

Druid - animals arent known for practical skills, but they get enough for move sliently and climb, which is all they deserve.
Shaman and fs - were new at the time, and already had 'buffed' skill points compared to caster counterparts.
Shifter - lol - same as druid.
Wizard - well it's an int class. 2 skill points buff wouldnt tickle.
Monk - The devs just hate monks, but they were kind enough to give monk their 2 skill points buff recently finally. thanks guys.

The INT class argument doesn't really make that much sense. Every class scales skill points off INT. Swashbuckler got an increase too. Spellswords got reintroduced with 4 as well.

As far as the Druid argument goes, I am not sure how that holds compared to classes with...proven practical skills...such as...uh...weapon master or divine champions.

First of all for the record I was kinda half-memeing my post for a probably bad comical relief attempt. Apologies.

Anyway, spellsword has base 4 because it's higher average int. Swash has 6 base but swash is skill heavy class, not quite like rogue but more or less like ranger who has higher base to compensate for the lower int compared to swash. Other than passive scaling of ac/ab which are more or less similar, swash's main difference from fighter is that fighter gets the feats and swash gets the skills, saves and cookies like third intention, slippery mind, etc. It's a skill heavy class and it has just 6 base because it's higher than average int. Not all classes are the same. Wizard has by far the most int, and it's also thematically a bookworm rather than a practicalist (idk maybe I made up that word) so it gets most of it's skill from reading, hence lower base but you get it back from higher int and wizard is not at all a skill heavy class I should add.

In fact, I just over all think wizard is a great class in a very good spot currently. Everytime I speak to a serious mage player they tell me wizard is good, and if that's not enough then also play rates suggest wizard is very fun in it's current state.

[Subtext]

I get it. Point being - Every class scales skill points off INT so the argument why one class gets extra and the other doesn't in a big overhaul because it's INT based just doesn't make much sense.
If anything, Wizard was in a comparatively much better spot at the time the big change happened. Druids etc perhaps too. But...that was four years ago.

Playrates aren't that great of an indicator by the way. If anything, one should expect the basic classes to have much higher numbers anyway with thematically more specialised or restrictive classes being played less.

The big thing standing out here is the number of Warlock players - a class that should come with IC stigma is on par with the inoffensive basic class.

I am a serious wizard player btw. Enchantment spec is amazing for PvE. But it's not terribly fun to play and I barely do what the class is supposed to do - casting spells (aside from cantrip spam).
I'm more bleak about other specialisations and would play an invoker over that any day.

[AstralUniverse]

I get it. Point being - Every class scales skill points off INT so the argument why one class gets extra and the other doesn't in a big overhaul because it's INT based just doesn't make much sense.

Yeah it sure does but you can close your eyes and ears and pretend otherwise. Sure.

Playrates aren't that great of an indicator by the way.

It's a pretty good indicator that a class has good design that makes it popular. Note that it doesnt mean strong, but it does mean popular, becuase something makes it unique, fun, and function for what they need it to, better than other classes for that function. Simple.
Taking a class like this and saying that it's not terribly fun to play... well.. then dont play it. But there's objective evidence that it is in fact fun to play, turns out.

The big thing standing out here is the number of Warlock players

Waaaaait a second, suddenly play rates do matter? Well, we still have more wizards than warlocks. Go figure.

I am a serious wizard player btw

Nooooooo really? I would never have guessed.

[Subtext]

I get it. Point being - Every class scales skill points off INT so the argument why one class gets extra and the other doesn't in a big overhaul because it's INT based just doesn't make much sense.

Yeah it sure does but you can close your eyes and ears and pretend otherwise. Sure.

Playrates aren't that great of an indicator by the way.

It's a pretty good indicator that a class has good design that makes it popular. Note that it doesnt mean strong, but it does mean popular, becuase something makes it unique, fun, and function for what they need it to, better than other classes for that function. Simple.
Taking a class like this and saying that it's not terribly fun to play... well.. then dont play it. But there's objective evidence that it is in fact fun to play, turns out.

The big thing standing out here is the number of Warlock players

Waaaaait a second, suddenly play rates do matter? Well, we still have more wizards than warlocks. Go figure.

I am a serious wizard player btw

Nooooooo really? I would never have guessed.

Instead of trying to ridicule me, perhaps actually make a convincing argument. You still haven't explained why it makes sense.

Playrates not being a great indicator for mechanical power also doesn't mean there aren't any outliers.
And if you checked - as far as main classes go, wizard and warlock are very much on par. Including dips, there's more Warlocks. That tells me that it's much more compelling for many people to play a class with a big social stigma instead of the base class that can be expressed in many different ways RP wise. In short, fun or mechanical power.

Cleric being the most played main class by far by the way - which is another outlier for me because you can't tell me clerical RP has so much more pull than other avenues. (And seeing as how many clerics aren't RP'd as such...)

[AstralUniverse]

I'm responding to your post in humor but I assure you I mean no disrespect. It is a bit amusing but if we were talking about monks or bards maybe I would be way more biased than you are now, so it's all good.

I mentioned the play rates because they indicate popularity, and popularity indicates good class design. The sign of good design is when something is popular when it is not overpowered. So either wizard is well designed to do unique things other classes cannot, or it's overpowered. Take your pick.

Also, you should not count warlock dips. It's basically a flavor skill dump, quite identical to bard but without harps. It has no relevance in this discussion. However mid-way wizards are mostly palemasters and definitely spellbook wizards, and are basically wizards so with that in mind we have about roughly 2% more wizards than locks. Also keep in mind that not all classes are the same in difficulty and functionality. Wizard is 100% support class in Arelith and that's not going to change. 20 years have proved that time and time again wizard is relegated to support, otherwise it will either be too strong or shift too far from the classic dnd wizard niche. You cant really have a class with access to every arcane spell in the game and also have it be self sufficient in 1v1s and stuff like that. It's simply a support class here.

Warlock on the other hand is miles away in design. It has much much higher skill floor but equivelently low cieling. It's a noob class, and wizard is a pro class with the highest skill ceiling in the game. We should actually expect to see more warlocks even just for this reason, and we dont.

tl;dr wizard is in a great spot right now - and I hope that 33 cl access never actually goes live because it would be too much.

[Kalthariam]

I bet you that if we nuked consumables, especially the readily availableness to literally all classes that is Scrolls using the Lore skill, we'd see a noticeable uptick spellcasting classes rather fast.

I personally am of the opinion that the insane ease of access to consumables on all characters is another reason spellcasters are more rare.

Pure non-caster martials shouldn't be throwing around 6th+ level spells even through scrolls, with minimal investment.

The fact you -can- make a Pure Fighter with 80 Lore, capable of using Time Stop as a whole is ridiculous in my opinion, even if I have done it to very good success.

[AstralUniverse]

I bet you we already have a lot more spellbook casters than not, and there's no reason to tilt it in that direction even more. I cant see what good it would accomplish.

[chris a gogo]

I just made a wizard having lots of fun with it.
My only minor gripe about it is it doesn't get leadership as a class skill.

[RaeRey]

People who describe how wizard is good are imagining some hypothetical wizard who can cast 2x mords, 2x empowered blackfire, 2x cl30 gate, 1x timestop, 3x max igms, and 2x mass hold, using just 6 spell slots. Or they might imagine the wizard spamming the -2 save on repeated casts of 7th-9th circle spells like an infinicaster, to drop their opponents saves to +35.

But a wizard is much too slot limited to do either of these things. In practice, a wizard runs out of juice right away and ends up as trying to support by reading WoF, bigby8, and breach scrolls.

Sometimes, people will claim that a wizard's spellbook flexibility is their strong point. But, this is a myth. Right now wizards (and sorcerers) are super focused into casting Mords since other spells are not impactful enough to slot. Their spells which check saves will typically bounce off spellcraft saves. Their spells which deal damage bounce off saves, dealing half damage. Their buffs are at the top of the breach list, turning them into breach padding. It's easy to see people heal off the damage from IGMS spam by sipping cheap cure critical wounds potions until the wizard runs out of spells.

A sorcerer (especially after being buffed with additional spells-known last year) can pick pretty much all the best arcane spells already, and has effectively as much spellbook flexibility for combat as a wizard, with the added bonus of having spontaneous casting, and a few more spell slots.

It's a shame that wizards have such a limited selection of good arcane spells, and even a generalist wizard (who has the largest number of spells) misses out on plenty of arcane spells like:

• Good Hope (Bard)
• Rogues Cunning (Warlock/Bard)
• Hell Inferno (Warlock/Invoker)
• Faerie Fire (Spellsword)
• Warcry (Spellsword)
• Deathward (Invoker)
• Negative Energy Protection (Invoker)
• Call Lightning (Invoker)
• ... and probably more I'm forgetting about.

As a server which advertises itself as being very RP focused, there are plenty of players who seem to find great enjoyment role-playing a civilian scholar, using the wizard's spellbook as a fancy VFX generator - actual useful mechanical effects from spells be damned. Most of these players are so unfamiliar with Arelith mechanics that they wear circlets of logic, instead of headbands of protection to protect against iron horn.

If this popularity is the reason for balancing the Wizard class into being weak combatants, then so be it. But Wizards absolutely not mechanically strong because its popular.

[Elurion]

ARCANE FLUX
Wizard and Sorcerer could be made much more fun in PVE if arcane flux were adjusted. They just need some more sustain. I don't think anyone would mind casting a few cantrips if you could build up a little momentum! But constant cantrip spam for a (rare) single arcane flux just falls flat. I think it could be made better with these changes:

1. Allow arcane flux roll to occur for any spell cast by the Wizard/Sorcerer. This would allow interesting things to happen, like spell chains. Would allow flux to occur when casting signature spells, casting from a spellbound wand, etc.
2. Allow more than one charge of arcane flux to accumulate, perhaps scaling with caster level. Example: at level 1 you can accumulate 1 arcane flux, at level 10 you can accumulate 2, at level 20 you can accumulate 3, allowing you to "infinicast" in a limited way, and can spend your charges on a boss opening or an elite pack in a strategic way.
3. Increase base chance for arcane flux across the board.

SPECIALISTS
Wizard Specialists could use expanded signature spell lists:
Let's take evocation specialist as an example: IGMS or Bigby VI available at level 15 on 3 minute cooldown.
One could add additional signature spells available earlier:
Magic missile infinicast (with metamagic available) at level 3.
Lesser Missile Storm at level 7 on 1.5 minute cooldown.

SPELL IMPROVEMENTS FOR ESF and/or SPECIALISTS:
Some spells already have special interactions with specialists or epic spell foci. I would like to see this expanded.
For example:
Magic Missile at level 9 maximized does 5d4+1 or 21 damage. Giving evocation specialists (or even just ESF: Evo) improved damage dice could make them more effective in PVE. Spamming 5d6+1 (31) magic damage or even 5d8+1 (41) per cast to a single target in PVE would feel much better.

OPPOSED SCHOOLS
I like the idea of getting rid of completely blocked opposed schools and instead casting spells from opposed schools with significantly reduced CL and DC. There are lots of good arguments being made here for a change like this.

SORCERER BLOODLINES
It's time sorcerer was visited mechanically by one of our resident overhaul wizards. Sorcerer bloodlines would be awesome and seem like an obvious choice in line with the rest of the class redesigns. Draconic bloodlines are a big deal in sorcerer lore, and would love to see that explored, perhaps with new spells and new uses for dragon streams. Pathfinder also has so many awesome sorcerer bloodlines to explore: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-c ... loodlines/ ...Solar bloodline, anyone?

Devs, please consider my Arcane Flux ideas.