Outdated Spellcraft

[Xersaoth]

Spellcraft seems to be outdated on Arelith. The +1 bonus to protection against spells should either be removed or paired with a +1 DC increase to spells to counter the target’s Spellcraft skill. Currently, characters can easily have saves exceeding 60, while most spell DCs are capped at 20 points lower (excluding Shadow Wizard path and Pale Mastery, which both are more defensive than offensive anyway). If anyone think this disparity is fine, or there are better way to rework this, feel to post your opinion below.

[Kushion]

can you please post the number of builds that are "easily" exceeding 60 in saves. ideally across a wide range of classes if it's the issue you're saying it is

[Xersaoth]

can you please post the number of builds that are "easily" exceeding 60 in saves. ideally across a wide range of classes if it's the issue you're saying it is

Virtually any character with both Dark Blessing and Spellcraft as a class skill can do it. There are a lot of ways to gain either or both to reach the cap. It just normally makes no sense to go so far above the DC cap for spells.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Um...While I suppose you could possibly hit 60 saves on your dominate save with some combination of cot levels, divine grace, gear, feats and spellcraft...I don't know why you would go that far. 40-45 is more than good enough for most things. Your sentiment however, that saves are dominate over dc spells, is 100% spot on. But that's a conversation that's been discussed to death, with the camps usually being "saves are too high" and "dying to a save spell sucks". Since wizards have other means to win in pvp, the later usually wins.

[Kythana]

If the new dweomer system ever releases, I agree.

Right now though, I think DC casters are in a fine spot. Not being able to touch CHA to saves characters is fine. Even without spellcraft, you can't.

I've seen many players in the last few months whose saves sit in the low/mid 20s to low 30s at best. Some of the hyper inflated saves idea has been toned down by loss of hard 5.

[Iceborn]

We had plans for improving saves in general for a while now - for reasons that have been argued to the ground.
Probably we'll wait until the dweomer system before committing to any large update, though.

[AstralUniverse]

can you please post the number of builds that are "easily" exceeding 60 in saves. ideally across a wide range of classes if it's the issue you're saying it is

Virtually any character with both Dark Blessing and Spellcraft as a class skill can do it. There are a lot of ways to gain either or both to reach the cap. It just normally makes no sense to go so far above the DC cap for spells.

Are you aware of the soft cap?

EDIT: I mean the +20 cap to soft bonuses, which is basically everything except the cha-saves and save feats. So you'd need to have 40+ to your saves with just maxed cha before any gear/seplls/other soft things. That doesnt really happen afaik. Show any build at all who gets anything even close to it please.

paladin has base reflex of 11, 12 with cat's grace, 22 with 10 cha mod and 26 with 14 cha mod, so you cannot really have more than 46 reflex on a cha based paladin or div sorc, and I dont think anything else gets so high saves. Quite far from 60, isnt it? We can also slap lightning reflexes and epic reflexes on top of it (which no paladin or div sorc can realistically afford) and we still barely kiss the 52.

[Peacewhisper]

I don't know how feasible this would be to implement, but could we just disable the spellcraft bonus to saves for characters with divine grace? I hate to take it away from the mundanes with single digit will scores, but paladins/harbringers/blackguards/libernators/etc. don't really need it.

[Ork]

Post your proof.

[AstralUniverse]

I don't know how feasible this would be to implement, but could we just disable the spellcraft bonus to saves for characters with divine grace? I hate to take it away from the mundanes with single digit will scores, but paladins/harbringers/blackguards/libernators/etc. don't really need it.

Their saves are reasonable, at least until basin gets the update. High saves is a core thing about these classes and they are balanced around having higher saves (but not really by that much when you consider they gear an extra stat instead of unisave most of the time in current basin system) so I'm not in favor. Or otherwise, what would you give these classes as a trade-off if we hypothetically go with your suggestion?

[Peacewhisper]

Their saves are reasonable, at least until basin gets the update. High saves is a core thing about these classes and they are balanced around having higher saves (but not really by that much when you consider they gear an extra stat instead of unisave most of the time in current basin system) so I'm not in favor. Or otherwise, what would you give these classes as a trade-off if we hypothetically go with your suggestion?

You don't always get something as a trade-off when a class feature gets nerfed. I remember when druids lost their monk AC, they didn't get anything as a trade-off for that. When the devs nerfed how epic dodge works with divine shield, they didn't get any trade-off. Look at all the builds that got rekt when they took away monk UBAB from quarterstaffs. I don't necessarily think a nerf to saves is really needed, but if it is going to happen I'd rather see it only apply to the classes that actually reach obscenely high saves. You could say they already enjoy the trade-off of not having to gear spellcraft and unisaves and instead being able to gear a third stat and/or another skill.

[Kushion]

can you please post the number of builds that are "easily" exceeding 60 in saves. ideally across a wide range of classes if it's the issue you're saying it is

Virtually any character with both Dark Blessing and Spellcraft as a class skill can do it. There are a lot of ways to gain either or both to reach the cap. It just normally makes no sense to go so far above the DC cap for spells.

As Ork said, saying these words means literally nothing without posting numbers and screenshots. My last character was a CHA To Saves martial with fully T3 Runed equipment, and I certainly wasn't anywhere near the range you speak of.

[AstralUniverse]

You don't always get something as a trade-off when a class feature gets nerfed. I remember when druids lost their monk AC, they didn't get anything as a trade-off for that. When the devs nerfed how epic dodge works with divine shield, they didn't get any trade-off. Look at all the builds that got rekt when they took away monk UBAB from quarterstaffs. I don't necessarily think a nerf to saves is really needed, but if it is going to happen I'd rather see it only apply to the classes that actually reach obscenely high saves. You could say they already enjoy the trade-off of not having to gear spellcraft and unisaves and instead being able to gear a third stat and/or another skill.

While you're not necessarily wrong in that all these nerfs happened without any trade-offs, you are also kind of missing the point, or nevigating around it skillfully. The main difference is that, as I said, these classes are balanced around something, and they are not overpowered currently, so they will need something in trade - which you cannot say about ubab dips and div rogues of the 2020 days (especially div swash zhent assassin).

Also, you hit the mark accurately when you said that nerfs to saves at current times are unnecessary, but you fail to acknowledge that div classes saves are kind of in the same boat as everyone else, and nerfing saves broadly is unnecessary - div classes included.

[Coolguy McMagic]

We've been over this. Div classes still have much better saves on average. The additional gearing is significantly alleviated by most of these classes having extra stat-powering spells. This will get much more extreme with the update, which we can assume will release at some point in the future.

That being said, the statement that "characters can easily have saves exceeding 60" is utterly ridiculous, unless you count rolling the d20 as part of the save? Usually we discuss saves without adding the random roll to the number.

[Peacewhisper]

While you're not necessarily wrong in that all these nerfs happened without any trade-offs, you are also kind of missing the point, or nevigating around it skillfully. The main difference is that, as I said, these classes are balanced around something, and they are not overpowered currently, so they will need something in trade - which you cannot say about ubab dips and div rogues of the 2020 days (especially div swash zhent assassin).

Also, you hit the mark accurately when you said that nerfs to saves at current times are unnecessary, but you fail to acknowledge that div classes saves are kind of in the same boat as everyone else, and nerfing saves broadly is unnecessary - div classes included.

I don't really feel that strongly about it either way. I never geared spellcraft or unisaves on any of my divine characters and they still had no trouble at all shrugging off DC 40 implosions. If I had went all out and geared both spellcraft and unisaves, yeah I probably could have broken 60 fort with my paladin/divine champion or sorcerer/paladin or at least gotten to the high 50's. Once you get to the mid 40's though anything more than that is simply overkill since nothing is going to have a DC that high.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying "We should nerf saves!" I am saying, "IF we nerf saves, maybe we should only nerf it for characters with divine grace."

[AstralUniverse]

We've been over this. Div classes still have much better saves on average. The additional gearing is significantly alleviated by most of these classes having extra stat-powering spells. This will get much more extreme with the update, which we can assume will release at some point in the future.

First of all... that update... should not be assumed to go live, in regards to balance discussions. Because we balance the game for the 'now' rather than some unknown arbitrary time in the future. This update will reach the live server eventually but it's not something we can really take into consideration here because the 'when' is unknown. I hope we can agree on that and only regard current gear options from now on, until it goes live. We'll cross the bridge when we reach it, as the saying goes.

Secondly, yeah. Div folks get better saves. That's like the main selling point other than might/shield and those two cost a bunch of feats and str gate. And yes, we've been over this but apparently we need to go over this again. The math clearly shows that in basically all cases except one, they dont reach the 40+ to all saves in current basin system, and casters are not fishing for 1s against them. They are supposed to have good saves - this checks out. If we hit them right under the belt with a nerf to their saves, they will just drop in popularity even more, and it's not like they are running over the server in masses and stomp everyone, right? It's just unnecessary.

[Coolguy McMagic]

We've been over this. Div classes still have much better saves on average. The additional gearing is significantly alleviated by most of these classes having extra stat-powering spells. This will get much more extreme with the update, which we can assume will release at some point in the future.

First of all... that update... should not be assumed to go live, in regards to balance discussions. Because we balance the game for the 'now' rather than some unknown arbitrary time in the future. This update will reach the live server eventually but it's not something we can really take into consideration here because the 'when' is unknown. I hope we can agree on that and only regard current gear options from now on, until it goes live. We'll cross the bridge when we reach it, as the saying goes.

Secondly, yeah. Div folks get better saves. That's like the main selling point other than might/shield and those two cost a bunch of feats and str gate. And yes, we've been over this but apparently we need to go over this again. The math clearly shows that in basically all cases except one, they dont reach the 40+ to all saves in current basin system, and casters are not fishing for 1s against them. They are supposed to have good saves - this checks out. If we hit them right under the belt with a nerf to their saves, they will just drop in popularity even more, and it's not like they are running over the server in masses and stomp everyone, right? It's just unnecessary.

A good chunk of casters doesn't even hit DC of 40s, so reaching 40 in your saving throws is not even necessary to force your opponent to fish for 1s. A caster without an optimized race (of which there are not that many for casting stats, really) will generally hit a maximum of 39 in their DC. Assuming they are using level 9 spells - which are severely limited due to level 9 often featuring other desirable spells - those casters will already need to fish for 1s if their opponent features a saving throw of 37.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

We had plans for improving saves in general for a while now - for reasons that have been argued to the ground.
Probably we'll wait until the dweomer system before committing to any large update, though.

This thread kinda seemed over after this post. It makes it clear that saves are on the devs radar and even gives a time when it makes sense to start anticipating any changes. A time that makes sense, mind you, because balancing for now when you know it's going to change seems like a lot of extra work.

[AstralUniverse]

A good chunk of casters doesn't even hit DC of 40s, so reaching 40 in your saving throws is not even necessary to force your opponent to fish for 1s. A caster without an optimized race (of which there are not that many for casting stats, really) will generally hit a maximum of 39 in their DC. Assuming they are using level 9 spells - which are severely limited due to level 9 often featuring other desirable spells - those casters will already need to fish for 1s if their opponent features a saving throw of 37.

Why are we assuming that the caster is building unoptimally but the opponent builds optimally?

[Coolguy McMagic]

A good chunk of casters doesn't even hit DC of 40s, so reaching 40 in your saving throws is not even necessary to force your opponent to fish for 1s. A caster without an optimized race (of which there are not that many for casting stats, really) will generally hit a maximum of 39 in their DC. Assuming they are using level 9 spells - which are severely limited due to level 9 often featuring other desirable spells - those casters will already need to fish for 1s if their opponent features a saving throw of 37.

Why are we assuming that the caster is building unoptimally but the opponent builds optimally?

No such assumptions are necessary. Let's say a div build makes a slightly less optimal choice and their saves drop from 40 to 39. A caster makes the more optimal choice and their DCs go from 39 to 40. What's the difference? Zero. Because they reach the cap before it matters.

[-XXX-]

A good chunk of casters doesn't even hit DC of 40s, so reaching 40 in your saving throws is not even necessary to force your opponent to fish for 1s. A caster without an optimized race (of which there are not that many for casting stats, really) will generally hit a maximum of 39 in their DC. Assuming they are using level 9 spells - which are severely limited due to level 9 often featuring other desirable spells - those casters will already need to fish for 1s if their opponent features a saving throw of 37.

Why are we assuming that the caster is building unoptimally but the opponent builds optimally?

The Discord Build Compendium currently lists all optimal Wizard builds as Human

[Ork]

The compendium is not optimal.

No such assumptions are necessary. Let's say a div build makes a slightly less optimal choice and their saves drop from 40 to 39. A caster makes the more optimal choice and their DCs go from 39 to 40. What's the difference? Zero. Because they reach the cap before it matters.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Category:Spells. There is a mechanism to lower spell saves to 35. It will benefit you to use it. Also, the assumption that all saves are high is only evident in spreadsheets. In game, characters have drastically lower saves than their spreadsheet might suggest. Optimal DC casters can get to 43DC with their 9th circle spells. Some can go even get higher. That's a 40% success rate against a 35 save. When the roll is either you save or you die, that's incredibly good.

[Naghast]

A honorable mention that this mechanic lowers saves against a specific descriptor. This is important to keep in mind. Because you can't just throw 3 different willsave spells. They have to be 3 willsave spells that all have the same descriptor.

Suppose it's significantly more beneficial for classes that can spam a single spell over and over.

[AstralUniverse]

Let's say a div build makes a slightly less optimal choice and their saves drop from 40 to 39.

This is false.

The Discord Build Compendium currently lists all optimal Wizard builds as Human

This is also false, you can have 42 DC on 9th with reasonable level of investment.

Cheers.

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

Walk into room, cast 1 spell, flip coin, enemy dead or not.
The greatest skill expression.

NWN save or die/save or suck does not lend itself well to good gameplay. That's just how it is. Dirge is a good example of how debuffing can work without being absolutely busted but imagine if your WOTB has a 90% chance to just evaporate anyone who doesn't have death ward up at the present. Absolutely lame. If you have ever thrown a choking powder into a crowd by accident you'll notice most peoples saves, if not Div, are actually quite poor, because the 10 minute buffs are often not real outside of a sheet or a arena duel.
A lot of builds have abysmall saves that are only approaching a 70% save chance vs DC40 after investing several millions (!) into runes to push themsleves up there. Naturally some immunities exist but literally everyone can run a breach wand.

We could just go back to 2 people showing up, both roll a 1d20 and whoever has highest wins.