Outdated Spellcraft

[Coolguy McMagic]

The compendium is not optimal.

No such assumptions are necessary. Let's say a div build makes a slightly less optimal choice and their saves drop from 40 to 39. A caster makes the more optimal choice and their DCs go from 39 to 40. What's the difference? Zero. Because they reach the cap before it matters.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Category:Spells. There is a mechanism to lower spell saves to 35. It will benefit you to use it. Also, the assumption that all saves are high is only evident in spreadsheets. In game, characters have drastically lower saves than their spreadsheet might suggest. Optimal DC casters can get to 43DC with their 9th circle spells. Some can go even get higher. That's a 40% success rate against a 35 save. When the roll is either you save or you die, that's incredibly good.

Okay, so if a character with 40 in their save gets hit by a spell of the SAME descriptor four, five or more times in a row, their saves may actually get to a point where they may fail a save against that super optimal caster that somehow has both 43 DC and six save or suck spells in their level 9 spell slots. This is, of course, ignoring any and all immunity effects that a skilled player would probably have applied to their character while they are getting hit by the same spells over and over again.

The saves I calculated for seven of Astral's div builds were also not made reading spreadsheets but gear sheets outside of the game and they confirm that their lowest save is 39 (Reflex in 2 of 3 cases, which are not exactly known for their save or die spells) - assuming longer-lasting buffs and optimal gear. The other four div builds all had 40+ saves.

I do not calculate saves based on just reading the character sheet and I'm not unfamiliar with the save lower mechanic either. I'd appreciate if you didn't make such assumptions about your fellow players.

Apparently it's wrong to assume the average case for a caster and also the average case for a div build at the same time. We can only compare the caster with highest possible DC achievable and the div build with the lowest saves possibly achievable.

Div builds have higher saves than most non-div builds. I don't think that's debateable at this point.

[Kushion]

This post should be titled "CHA TO SAVES ISSUE" as opposed to Outdated Spellcraft, considering the main points of op and others.

lets not screw over everybody because divine builds have high saves lmao. same treatment the serpents woe got and that adjustment hurt the already low AC builds more than it did the Div ones.

[AstralUniverse]

The saves I calculated for seven of Astral's div builds were also not made reading spreadsheets but gear sheets outside of the game and they confirm that their lowest save is 39 (Reflex in 2 of 3 cases, which are not exactly known for their save or die spells) - assuming longer-lasting buffs and optimal gear. The other four div builds all had 40+ saves.

Then your calculations are bad. Simple as that. We're still waiting for proof, and you're just yelling 40+ saves and expect people to just swallow it with out any shred of critical thinking, but this is not the case. If you're talking about the builds and their gear calculations from the previous saves thread, they're not mine first of all, and secondly they still clearly show you dont get 40 to lowest save, and only spellbook deep paladin had 39 in their lowest save, and the rest had all even lower saves.

EDIT:
Oh wait I entirely misunderstood your post. You calculated saves for seven of MY builds, I assume from the wiki or discord(?). Well, again tho, show proof, because I'm almost sure your calculations are bad.

[ArelithMarketCrash]

Assuming you're stacked with runes...

A pre-epic split of most div builds (since epic save progression is all the same) would get you 21/17/17.

12-14 starting CON capped at 24-26 gives you 7-8 fortitude.
8 starting DEX it's possible to get 16 DEX comfortably for PvP with consumables alone for 3 reflex.
Ditto WIS for another +3 will.
Capped CHA floats between 28 and 32 race dependant for a 9-11.

37-40/29-31/29-31

Cross classing spellcraft and splashing it on gear can comfortably get 25 SC for a +5.
You can get +2 will amulets and itemize them well, even adding +1 reflex to them without sacrificing other stats.
Add reflex to boots.
PfA is a minimum of +2 to saves.

39-42/33-35/35-37
44-47/38-40/40-42

Build dependant, like a fighter heavy div build, you can get more feats to spend like Lightning Reflex and Iron Will for another +2. Last character I played had those and Great STR 4, but since the Great STR nerf I could get Epic Will/Reflex if there wasn't more enticing options to further cement my saves into nat 1 fail territory even when debuffed/dispelled.

I wanted to get a picture of my character's saves but I was force releveled (G STR change) and it having an annoying feat order I never wrote down I couldn't bother, stacked with runes I had similar saves to the above if not slightly higher.

Edit: Given this turned into a CHA martial thread, I'll add that the worst offender about that archetype is Holy Sword making paladins better dispellers than mages.

[Coolguy McMagic]

The saves I calculated for seven of Astral's div builds were also not made reading spreadsheets but gear sheets outside of the game and they confirm that their lowest save is 39 (Reflex in 2 of 3 cases, which are not exactly known for their save or die spells) - assuming longer-lasting buffs and optimal gear. The other four div builds all had 40+ saves.

Then your calculations are bad. Simple as that. We're still waiting for proof, and you're just yelling 40+ saves and expect people to just swallow it with out any shred of critical thinking, but this is not the case. If you're talking about the builds and their gear calculations from the previous saves thread, they're not mine first of all, and secondly they still clearly show you dont get 40 to lowest save, and only spellbook deep paladin had 39 in their lowest save, and the rest had all even lower saves.

EDIT:
Oh wait I entirely misunderstood your post. You calculated saves for seven of MY builds, I assume from the wiki or discord(?). Well, again tho, show proof, because I'm almost sure your calculations are bad.

I've literally shown you these before. You keep asking for evidence that div saves are higher, then the evidence is provided to you, and then you ignore it.

Here they are again: https://imgur.com/a/KoIAjVO

Edit: I forgot to add the proper disc scores to some of these. I can't be bothered to pull up these builds again to be honest and I don't think it matters.

[Anomandaris]

With unis, spellcraft and protection from spells I’m consistently hitting a modifier of over +40 pre d20 roll on all saves on a non div build.

With new dweomer I can add easily another couple unis and/or +1 will/reflex/fort.

I would only do that to stack more mundane saves because at this point I have immunities and unbeatable saves layered. It’s just the stupid fear, dirty fighting, and vigilante grenade mundane DCs that are a concern.

[AstralUniverse]

I've literally shown you these before. You keep asking for evidence that div saves are higher, then the evidence is provided to you, and then you ignore it.

Here they are again: https://imgur.com/a/KoIAjVO

Edit: I forgot to add the proper disc scores to some of these. I can't be bothered to pull up these builds again to be honest and I don't think it matters.

We went over those, and I said everything I had to say about them last time.

[Ork]

Okay, so if a character with 40 in their save gets hit by a spell of the SAME descriptor four, five or more times in a row, their saves may actually get to a point where they may fail a save against that super optimal caster that somehow has both 43 DC and six save or suck spells in their level 9 spell slots.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Category:Spells. Might want to reread this. Doesn't seem like you understand the mechanic.

[Coolguy McMagic]

I've literally shown you these before. You keep asking for evidence that div saves are higher, then the evidence is provided to you, and then you ignore it.

Here they are again: https://imgur.com/a/KoIAjVO

Edit: I forgot to add the proper disc scores to some of these. I can't be bothered to pull up these builds again to be honest and I don't think it matters.

We went over those, and I said everything I had to say about them last time.

Yeah. There really is nothing else to be said about it. My math isn't wrong. The build aren't wrong (or if they are, that would be on you). Div builds have higher saves than other builds. End of story.

[Kushion]

u dont have to prove anything man we all know that Divine Builds get good saves. that's not like a revelation, Astral even says it in one of his first posts in here. like i'd assume the intention of the base game design was probably for these classes to have good saves.

again, this thread is mistitled and should probably be like, locked and remade for a discussion on cha-to-saves, if people feel that's an issue.

[Anomandaris]

Or maybe we just don’t let people double stack cha div saves with spellcraft…?

Similar to how AC is treated e.g. parry, shield, monk AC, div shield interactions.

[Xerah]

It would ruin the entire point of those classes to make them have the same saves. I’m not sure why you all are asking for this.

[AstralUniverse]

I’m not sure why you all are asking for this.

They perhaps dont realize just how powerful casters truly are. The issue with casters is that they have low floor and high cieling in terms of player skill so you will always have caster players complaining every once in a while, usually when they just dont realize how many options they have in pvp, and whenever I talk to actual mage players that I know to be skilled, their opinion usually looks something like "yeah it's not effortless, and it takes strategy and patience but due to my high AC I have the staying power to continue casting and eventually the dc spells start landing"

"Casters complain about high saves" is a part of the bingo, iirc. Apart of a few known caster players who argue in bad faith, this mostly comes up out of ignorance and even when we look at math and data, this data is often read incorrectly (like for example, people counting good hope wands in the saves on the sheet, which is none realistic).

So yeah, that's how it works, and kinda always has.

[Coolguy McMagic]

I don't think a general nerf to saves is needed at the moment. I don't take issue with div builds having better saves either, but there are clearly several cases where their saves truly are so high that they render the saving throw mechanic pointless outside of 1-fishing (even if you ignore Good Hope. Note that most of these builds have open slots for saves on their weapon too and some could have taken a dip for a spellcraft class as well).

Removing some cases where Divine Grace can stack with other sources might help with that once the update releases and everyone can gear their saves better.

[AstralUniverse]

making cha-saves a soft bonus and other stuff along that line has been suggested before so many times over the years.

I agree tho - when the gear update goes live - we'll talk again.

[-XXX-]

They perhaps dont realize just how powerful casters truly are. The issue with casters is that they have low floor and high cieling in terms of player skill so you will always have caster players complaining every once in a while, usually when they just dont realize how many options they have in pvp, and whenever I talk to actual mage players that I know to be skilled, their opinion usually looks something like "yeah it's not effortless, and it takes strategy and patience but due to my high AC I have the staying power to continue casting and eventually the dc spells start landing"

"Casters complain about high saves" is a part of the bingo, iirc. Apart of a few known caster players who argue in bad faith, this mostly comes up out of ignorance and even when we look at math and data, this data is often read incorrectly (like for example, people counting good hope wands in the saves on the sheet, which is none realistic).

So yeah, that's how it works, and kinda always has.

Trying to frame this as a skill issue is hardly constructive - the saves bloat is a well established and recognized fact. It's a design choice confirmed as such by Irongron that objectively translates into player numbers.

Problem is that messing with spellcraft wouldn't have really addressed the save bloat even if there was the will to do it, as most div grace/dark blessing builds don't need it to get really high saves and nerfing spellcraft for everybody would have only made div dips mandatory.
I don't see how saves can be tweaked without addressing div dips in advance by either making div grace/dark blessing only work if majority levels in the class granting it are present and/or by requiring more Pal/BG/Lib levels to get it.

[AstralUniverse]

What you refer to as saves bloat, has indeed always been a design choice. It is established and regonized fact in the sense that this is what saves should look like in this game, in order for it to be balanced.

Divine dips are balanced. Because the real big ticket benchmark for a melee div, is the synergy that cuts your wind up time significantly, needing one less cast to reapply every minute is huge. Without it, divine dips are far far less appealing, and I'm pretty sure almost no one plays them. The best paladin, blackguard, harbinger, liberator and warlock builds go deep.

[Cnaym]

Man I wish I knew a "actual mage player", all I ever see is mage corpses.

Jokes aside, system needs a looking at after the basin changes drop, devs said they will look at it. That's it really.

I'm sure there is mages that struggle more or less than others, but when your entire class is easily beaten by application of stick to face or outcasted by funny musician with scrollcase than asking for a little improvement isn't a far fetched thing.

General rule of thumb that worked for me so far is spam refelx saves vs. str builds, will saves vs dex builds and just run from charisma builds. Hope after the update and looking into how it plays out there's some more nuance to it ^_^

[-XXX-]

What you refer to as saves bloat, has indeed always been a design choice.
It is established and regonized fact in the sense that this is what saves should look like in this game, in order for it to be balanced.

• It's not just me.* I didn't coin the term, but it's accurate - it first appeared as a part of a wider stat bloat discourse revolving around melee builds getting ahead in the general power creep - which has also been acknowledged and recognized as a problem by team members
• it's an Arelith specific design choice in the sense of being the lesser of two evils - it's not ideal, but addressing it seems like a daunting task, so it's what we get
• unless you were a part of the original NWN design team, you won't fault anybody for questioning your "authority" on how things should look like - you can sure voice your preference, but at this point it's hardly necessary

Divine dips are balanced. Because the real big ticket benchmark for a melee div, is the synergy that cuts your wind up time significantly, needing one less cast to reapply every minute is huge. Without it, divine dips are far far less appealing, and I'm pretty sure almost no one plays them. The best paladin, blackguard, harbinger, liberator and warlock builds go deep.

That wasn't what I was talking about, nor was I suggesting that div dips somehow weren't balanced.
I was suggesting that players would be likely to reach for div dips to compensate for any potential tweaks to saves - i.e.: nerf saves only to get a div dip meta - it's how things were before we got runic materials after all.

---

*btw. I honestly don't understand why you're singling me out as the odd duck here when:

• it's an issue that gets brought up with increaed frequency by players other than me
• the player numbers are what they are
• I was actually arguing there that nerfing spellcraft wasn't the solution, lol

[Subtext]

What you refer to as saves bloat, has indeed always been a design choice. It is established and regonized fact in the sense that this is what saves should look like in this game, in order for it to be balanced.

That would be a much better argument if the DCs for certain other -noncaster- builds/abilities wouldn't be absolutely through the roof. I believe it's also a recognized and balanced fact at this stage that balance affects PvP and PvE very differently.

I'm actually not against that though. I think it's great that some builds have a strong chance to land their stuff!

I do not believe though that it's a good argument to take some extremely crippling and unfun spells (save or sucks...certain CC) as the reason to keep saves on an inflated level - or DCs on the classes who have access to those spell comparatively low. Because as a result, it -does- render a wide range of other spells completely uninteresting and borderline useless. For example, why should I spend a slot or even just an action to cast Disintegrate or Transmute Blood instead of IGMS?

What it absolutely -is- an argument for is taking a long hard look at save or suck and CC spells and having them affect players very differently to NPCs, quite similar to how certain class abilities affect those differently. Looking at you, Nightmare Tactics.

[Ork]

I don't see how saves can be tweaked without addressing div dips in advance by either making div grace/dark blessing only work if majority levels in the class granting it are present and/or by requiring more Pal/BG/Lib levels to get it.

Currently, deep CHA-based classes are the majority. If this change were to go into affect, the only build affected would be sorc/div and they already don't exist for other reasons. Almost all paladins go to L26, almost all harbingers go to L26, almost all liberators go to L16, almost all blackguards go to L16.

Many commenters in this thread are stuck back in 2018.

[Dachlatte]

I don't see how saves can be tweaked without addressing div dips in advance by either making div grace/dark blessing only work if majority levels in the class granting it are present and/or by requiring more Pal/BG/Lib levels to get it.

Currently, deep CHA-based classes are the majority. If this change were to go into affect, the only build affected would be sorc/div and they already don't exist for other reasons. Almost all paladins go to L26, almost all harbingers go to L26, almost all liberators go to L16, almost all blackguards go to L16.

Many commenters in this thread are stuck back in 2018.

Wait a minute, Doc, are you telling me you built a time machine out of a DeLorean?

[-XXX-]

I was suggesting that players would be likely to reach for div dips to compensate for any potential tweaks to saves - i.e.: nerf saves only to get a div dip meta - it's how things were before we got runic materials after all.

Currently, deep CHA-based classes are the majority. If this change were to go into affect, the only build affected would be sorc/div and they already don't exist for other reasons. Almost all paladins go to L26, almost all harbingers go to L26, almost all liberators go to L16, almost all blackguards go to L16.

Many commenters in this thread are stuck back in 2018.

You do understand that I wasn't commenting on what is but what would follow next if spellcraft got nerfed in a vacuum, right?
The fact that it would likely set us down a road we've been down before means that you're only further proving my point here.

[Ork]

It all comes back to loremaggedon, as almost everything mechanics related inevitably does.

[Naghast]

Okay, so if a character with 40 in their save gets hit by a spell of the SAME descriptor four, five or more times in a row, their saves may actually get to a point where they may fail a save against that super optimal caster that somehow has both 43 DC and six save or suck spells in their level 9 spell slots.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Category:Spells. Might want to reread this. Doesn't seem like you understand the mechanic.

Nah, he knows about it well.
He just also knows how to defend against it.