The Case For UD Expansion

[Zariu]

The Underdark currently contains one settlement with three districts and a small Svirfneblin outpost. However, we have advanced far past the days when the Underdark had only a few players to its name. In this day and age, real estate below is hard won. And the hub is at most times busy or soon to be busy. However, this expansion of players without expansion of settlement options has quickly turned into problems.

Andunor is easily seen as only one settlement by those above, below technically there are three districts. But due to close proximity, these operate far more often like factions within the city all vying for control rather than feeling like separate governments. In addition, the number of quarters and shops reflects closely to Cordor, thus these three settlements are actually three settlements in a trench coat to make one city.

Why not Sibayad you may ask? A vast majority of UD races do not have that option due to lack of citizenship. Drow(~ 600 monthly active), Orogs(~ 150+ monthly), Duergar(~ 100 monthly), Kobolds(~ 100 monthly), Goblins(~ 80-100 monthly), Hobgoblins(~ 50 monthly), Ogres(~ 40 monthly), Bugbears(₂₀ monthly), Troglodytes(~ 20 monthly). Around 1170 characters per month with only one choice for settlement, because as discussed above, Andunor is more like one settlement rather than three for many reasons. Andunor of course is home to many more that those, but they were not included as they could move to another settlement.

Okay okay, but UD population is low, you don't need another city. Andunor counting all three districts has currently 530 citizens. The second largest count of citizens? Cordor with…357. Guldorand, 313. So, Andunor has a citizenry of heading towards the two largest surface settlements, all while only having the amount of shops and quarters of one, or if you count Treadstone more quarters but many are very small rooms in a higher portion than most surface settlements.

Proof of numbers on quarters and shops.
Around Hub/Sporefarms/Shipyard
Guild Quarters:2(7 total quarters across guild houses)
Quarters:14
Shops:16

Sharps
Guild Quarters:2 (4 total quarters across guild house)
Quarters:14
Temple: 1
Shops:8
Citizens:141

Devil's Table
Guild Quarters:
Quarters:14
Temple: 1
Shops:8
Citizens:166

Greyport
Guild Quarters:2(7 total quarters across guild house)
Quarters:12
Temple: 1
Shops:15
Citizens: 223

Treadstone:
Quarters:27
Shops:6

Andunor Total:
Guild Quarters: 6 (18 total quarters across guild house)
Quarters: 54(81 with treadstone)
Temple: 3
Shops:47(53 with treadstone)
Citizens:530

Cordor
Guild Quarters:6(19)
Quarters:47
Temple: 2
Shops: 57
Citizens:357

Guldorand Citizens: 313

Having put all my evidence forth of why I feel the diverse and clearly populated UD deserves to be looked at for a settlement, there is also the factor of giving RP diversity via options. The districts of Andunor give a little variation in choice, but you are still an Andunorian, it is much more minimal to the difference between Cordor, Guldorand, Bendir, Myon, Brog, and so on. And this is on top of the vast variety of races and cultures to be just stuffed all into Andunor. Adding even a small settlement, would give more choice to the RP of underdarkers, conflict between their cities, possibly even interesting differences between the settlements interacting with other settlements and groups like Sencliff.

My own personal suggestion, due to numbers and their strong culture is a majority drow city. Around 600 drow a month is the highest in race numbers. In comparison, Elves have around 1000 a month if you add all the types including half-elves, and more like 800 or a bit less total if you don't include them. And that racial population is enough to justify Myon. In addition, drow are known for their strong culture, many seek to play them specifically for that. Aggressive Lolthitism can also be very restrictive to much other RP, as the religion seeks to make all others conform to their culture. And this works against the Skullport style city Andunor seems to be sought to be. Over the past year plus, it has been frequent for fights between drow houses and other city factions or between houses to take place. Which is frankly, bad for business in a trade city. And my suggestion isn't that their RP is wrong, simply, the UD needs more space to spread out for varied RP. And it seems like a city focused upon drow house rp with their many retainers and slaves along, would potentially make a nicely sized city to allow that RP, while allowing Andunor to be more Skullport trade city in style.

That's just my idea and take though, looking forward to hearing other settlement ideas, disagreements, and everything else!

[Zariu]

A commonly liked idea amoung the Arcanum discord is an expansion of one of the districts to a full settlement elsewhere. Which Greyport with Gracklstugh to back it up makes a lot of sense and could result in a neutralish no-nonsense duergar trade city.

[The GrumpyCat]

Firstly: I'm absolutly in favour of adding more quarters to Andunor as a whole. I agree, I think that would be a good idea.

I'm not in favour of another city, especially not a Drow one even though numbers wise drow do make the most sense.

I'll explain.

To an extent, People = More People. If I look in the player list and see Bob, Harry, Jane, Tony and Terrance on I am more likely to log on that day to meet them. Heck if I look at the player list and see 100 people online, I'm more likely (gratned dependent a little on the activity, but at least more likely long term) to log on. Because in most cases*, if I am seeking people to rp with, adventure with, have conflict with, ect - I want there to be PEOPLE.

It's a bit of a spiral in that, and I'm sure you've noticed it. People attract People on Arelith.

Drow are a xenophobic race. They by nature don't want to mix with other races, if played as lore. This isn't unusual, the same is true with a lot of Underdark Races. They like to stick amongst their own kind (again, when played to lore, and a lot of people do.)

So if we make Drowtopia, with all the amenities of Andunor bit a bit of a way out, the vast majority of those Drow Races (which account for over half the UD population) would migrate to there.

That's 50% less people in the hub. 50% less people for other pcs to interact with because, frankly, if it's in their rp not to go to None-Drow places, and they don't HAVE to go to non drow places - they won't.

So when someone logs in to their fun say, human outcast, and doesn't find the rp they're hoping for, because there's 50% less people to rp with effectivly, they may well go... 'Huh. This is dull. I wonder what's happening in Cordor? I'll log on as my pc there.' and go.

This sort of division was part of what lead to the UD being so unpopular pre EE, to the extent that if Andunor hadn't worked out so well, the entire concept might have been canned.

I think the chief concern of the Devs is that happening again.

Will it?

I don't know. But making an entire new city seperate from Andunor is a lot of work, and a lot of risk. I'm... unsure if it's a good idea, honestly. Especially if it's such an exclusive one.

[Chiana]

I heard that Irongron was working on a “Goblin Town” on stream a while back. From the sound of it, it was intended to be a more restrictive settlement, likely meant only for goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins. I wonder if we’ll still see it released now that Irongron has stepped back from the server.

[Yensent]

To an extent, People = More People. If I look in the player list and see Bob, Harry, Jane, Tony and Terrance on I am more likely to log on that day to meet them. Heck if I look at the player list and see 100 people online, I'm more likely (gratned dependent a little on the activity, but at least more likely long term) to log on. Because in most cases*, if I am seeking people to rp with, adventure with, have conflict with, ect - I want there to be PEOPLE.

This where I tend to fall on the whole matter. More quarters would be great.

Out of curiousity, not that it changes your overall arguement, did the OP include slave quarters?

[Zariu]

Very good feedback

My suggestion of a drow city was just based upon numbers and the rather divisive rp drow have been having on the UD for awhile now. But that's just one suggestion. Mostly my point is UD has the numbers to warrant some form of expansion, and hopefully there can be some ideas and discussion of what people would love to see. The idea of a Gracklstugh supported small trade city for example makes a lot of sense.

I personally feel like just expanding Andunor wouldn't allow for what people are really wanting in UD right now. Which is that you really lack much choice for a lot of races on where to go. And that made sense when the UD was smaller in population. But frankly, now there is a lot of various rp being shoved into one city. And some of it very much strong arms other rp into the ground. Having the option of distance, of choice much like how on surface I can pick between Cordor and Guldorand for instance for different governments, politics, and social stances gives interesting rp choice and allows room for different rp in different areas.

This does bring up though, let's say a duergar ran trade city like the idea mentioned was done. Andunor would lose some of its population, I'd guess it would become even more a majority of drow and therefore might play like a drow city in the end. Going to simply add more quarters to Andunor though, means the current problem of no option exists besides living in the city of drow house wars for many races.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know many people have been displeased with the current state of Andunor which does not work well with their rp. And with a lack of location choice for their character, have ended up leaving the UD to play other characters elsewhere even if they enjoyed it formerly. And my thought is that too many characters of various rp and cultures are being forced into only one city. And that simply making Andunor bigger would still result in the same problem of no choice of places to go for varied rp.

[Zariu]

To an extent, People = More People. If I look in the player list and see Bob, Harry, Jane, Tony and Terrance on I am more likely to log on that day to meet them. Heck if I look at the player list and see 100 people online, I'm more likely (gratned dependent a little on the activity, but at least more likely long term) to log on. Because in most cases*, if I am seeking people to rp with, adventure with, have conflict with, ect - I want there to be PEOPLE.

This where I tend to fall on the whole matter. More quarters would be great.

Out of curiousity, not that it changes your overall arguement, did the OP include slave quarters?

I did yes! Though I might have missed a couple in the slums come to think of it. Still close to full count.

[Irongron]

I heard that Irongron was working on a “Goblin Town” on stream a while back. From the sound of it, it was intended to be a more restrictive settlement, likely meant only for goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins. I wonder if we’ll still see it released now that Irongron has stepped back from the server.

I will be back, of course. After all it's my actual owned server, and I made the overwhelming majority of it. Right now I'm still on an extended break though, and without me there will be no significant area additions.

Goblin town is a real thing, and it's extremely advanced, bringing with it a massive expansion to the UD, the largest since I made Andunor. It will be released.

[Marsi]

Drow are probably the one race that really, really shouldn't have a racial settlement.

[Kushion]

I guess my concern would be spreading the playerbase out even more. It can already feel pretty stretched thin on Surface, and I'd generally always felt that one of the drawing factors of the Underdark was the ease of finding roleplay due to the Hub.

Between Andunor, New-Goblin-Thing, and Sib being available rp hubs for Monsters/Outcasts, etc, it runs the risk of doing what's (arguably) already happened to Surface where the playerbase is so spread over the variety of roleplay hubs that many of them are often more empty than not.

More quarters for the districts would be nice, for being the effective 'settlements' of Andunor, they didn't seem to have the most housing. Maybe a few more in places like the Ogre Tradepost?

[Zariu]

I heard that Irongron was working on a “Goblin Town” on stream a while back. From the sound of it, it was intended to be a more restrictive settlement, likely meant only for goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins. I wonder if we’ll still see it released now that Irongron has stepped back from the server.

I will be back, of course. After all it's my actual owned server, and I made the overwhelming majority of it. Right now I'm still on an extended break though, and without me there will be no significant area additions.

Goblin town is a real thing, and it's extremely advanced, bringing with it a massive expansion to the UD, the largest since I made Andunor. It will be released.

That's good to know. I guess the only concern is if it is too restrictive race-wise, all your hard work may not have much of a population that uses it. But of course it is your personal design decision on how restricted or unrestricted it will be.

Hope the break is restful and enjoyable!

[In passion, patience]

My personal opinion is merely to expand the districts of Andunor. Give them multiple "maps" rather than one each. More quarters. More hanging out spaces. Expand what we already have to make it greater than it already is. Andunor is by all means a very, very robust foundation and I don't ultimately see the need for a dedicated Drow settlement. However, I've two pet peeves that I realise might be unpopular but still worth sharing:

1) I dislike the entire premise of the Hub. What I find it does is cram all of Andunor - three districts - into one tiny area where it becomes rather difficult to RP because everyone is writing over each other. Another issue is that it actively forces the very districts, which should, by design, be the heart(s) of Andunor into a constant state of emptiness. When one of my PCs used to rule the Devil's Table I made it a point never to present myself to the Hub and rather hang out in a dedicated hang-out space in the Table itself. This, over time, gained popularity to the point where a lot of drow PCs would hang out in the Table rather than in the Hub. If we're to expand Andunor, I believe removing the Hub is an important step towards making sure that the rest of the city is not merely a shopping centre for surface and underdark PCs alike. I'd like to see the streets of Andunor thrive. The premise of being stuck in the beehive that the Hub tends to me simply makes little appeal.

2) I dislike the need to enforce "diversity" and "plurality" at the expense of district personality. Stop making the Devil's Table be anything short of a strictly Drow district. Stop making the Sharps be anything short of a monster/greenskin district. Stop making Greyport be anything short of a duergar/outcast district. Let each district have its personality and its taste. The UD races are all very diverse and very unique and snuffling out their RP spaces because of no justifiable or convincing reason will only thwart their RP in the long run.

Let's admit that the DT is the Drow district, the Sharps is the monster/greenskin District, and Greyport is the duergar/outcast district and begin building from there. That'll make RP ten times more interesting than having Andunor being a mishmash of everything that lacks a clear vision or personality.

[WitchyEvil]

I will say.. the numbers above are not very accurate.

Hub/Sporefarms/Shipyard+ Silvermines + Zurkhwood which were forgotten:
Guildhouses: 5 - Guild Rooms: 15
Regular Quarters: 8
Total Rooms: 24
Shops: 24

Saltspar (also not in the earlier count)
Guildhouses: 2 - Guild Rooms: 2
Regular Quarters: 8
Total Rooms: 10
Shops: 5

Upperdark Trade Post
Guildhouse: 1 - Guild Rooms: 4
Regular Quarters: 3
Total Rooms: 7
Shops: 2

Greyport + Sluice Gate
Guildhouses: 3 - Guild Rooms: 12
Regular Quarters: 12
Total Rooms: 24
Shops: 15 - 6 are Guild Shops, so 8 regular

Sharps
Bank Vaults - Count as Quarters

Slave Quarters
Quarters - 4, I believe

That's 28 Additional Quarters not previously mentioned. NOT counting the Bank Vaults.

That's 15 Additonal Shops not mentioned.

I don't actual have counts for the Table and the Sharps, I don't go there often enough to track.

I'm all for having more housing and shops, however, but let's not skew the numbers of what currently exists.

[Zariu]

I will say.. the numbers above are not very accurate.

Hub/Sporefarms/Shipyard+ Silvermines + Zurkhwood which were forgotten:
Guildhouses: 5 - Guild Rooms: 15
Regular Quarters: 8
Total Rooms: 24
Shops: 24

Saltspar (also not in the earlier count)
Guildhouses: 2 - Guild Rooms: 2
Regular Quarters: 8
Total Rooms: 10
Shops: 5

Upperdark Trade Post
Guildhouse: 1 - Guild Rooms: 4
Regular Quarters: 3
Total Rooms: 7
Shops: 2

Greyport + Sluice Gate
Guildhouses: 3 - Guild Rooms: 12
Regular Quarters: 12
Total Rooms: 24
Shops: 15 - 6 are Guild Shops, so 8 regular

Sharps
Bank Vaults - Count as Quarters

Slave Quarters
Quarters - 4, I believe

That's 28 Additional Quarters not previously mentioned. NOT counting the Bank Vaults.

That's 15 Additonal Shops not mentioned.

I don't actual have counts for the Table and the Sharps, I don't go there often enough to track.

I'm all for having more housing and shops, however, but let's not skew the numbers of what currently exists.

I wasn't going to count places outside Andunor because then to compare numbers accurately on surface, I'd have to do things like for Cordor count the Arcane tower area, Darrowdeep, Campsite, ask questions like which settlement gets the grove quarter count. So my numbers are a quick comparison of the immediate city areas. Because the crux of my argument is Andunor is of similar size to a surface city with far more citizens and there needs to be more city or another city. Not comparing everywhere underdark to a surface city plus all the local unassociated areas of which surface has many. If you want to do a comparison of those, feel free.

And vault count, I think every city has them. They were better considered negligible and same rather than checking the exact count of them.

[Zer]

I think at very least it would be nice to have a couple more quarters/small guildhouses in secluded parts of Underdark so certain groups that are not welcome/wish to limit interaction with the wider UD population can have their own small corner.