Tongue of the Sun and the Moon

[Erin Greene]

I noticed that we have the neat "Virtual Console:" that heavily deals with making languages actually work. And its really cool.

And I noticed Tabletop monks have, at level 17, the ability to speak and understand all languages.


It would be pretty cool if that were implemented here.


Or at least I think so.

[InTheFlesh]

Nothing's stopping you from getting 40 Lore so that you can understand all languages.

[Erin Greene]

Except the level 30 cap on skills. Which means the skill caps at 34.

[InTheFlesh]

You can take skill focus feats, or you can do what I did and take levels in Bard. Bards on Arelith are not restricted from Lawful alignment.

[AdreannaDrea]

Intelligence gear helps.

[Erin Greene]

And, not to nitpick, but that would be waiting an extra 13 levels to get an ability monks get in normal D&D without spending a single skillpoint or feat.

[AdreannaDrea]

You can actually start understanding languages at 20 lore. It's a roll DC of 40 you have to beat for you to understand, so if you roll a 20 , +20 from lore = 40.

1 doesn't mean auto fail, and 20 doesn't mean auto success.

[Marsi]

Understanding all languages is a pretty big deal here, arguably a bigger deal than on tabletop (which this isn't, and is far removed from). Usually an end-game pursuit for the right builds.

But speaking all languages-- that is a feat which takes RL months, maybe even a year, of continuous roleplay (because the process of learning must be roleplayed) to undertake (obviously disregarding the languages you cannot learn). There have been few polyglots in the server's history, because it is such a gargantuan achievement. All of which are heavy INT builds.

[Erin Greene]

So in other words, "No, monks should continue to suck terribly and be missing something like 50% of their class abilities".

[AdreannaDrea]

Dude, if you think monks suck, you should try playing one
But, yeah, if you want language stuff, just be prepared to put points or effort into it, I guess.

[DestroyerOTN]

Approximate. It's statement is "all living things". Grab yourself a few ranger levels and go for common with everything that doesn't bark or squak.

Alternatively, since it's wording -is- "the ability to communicate with all living creatures", we could simply add another tongue to the table which all creatures automatically succeed interpreting, but only monks can speak.

... that might murder code, though. Go with the first

[Erin Greene]

Currently at level 10 with a monk now, I am playing one, and I pretty much think the best thing about being a Monk is the ability to run away REALLY fast when soloing doesn't go well.

And looking at my PHB, Tongue of the Sun and the Moon reads:

"A monk of 17th level and above can speak with any living creature".

I don't know what the means precisely mechanically in 3.5, but I would have to imagine its pretty much "When people talk, he/she understands it, and when he talks, people understand him/her" regardless of language differences.

So, actually, an extra language everyone on the server is coded to understand automatically, but you need to be a 17th level monk to "speak" with, would work. But I will freely admit I don't know how hard that would be to code.

And, well, thank you for the interest in the idea, at least. Even "no I don't think that is a great idea" interest is better than "Completely ignored because it is stupid"

[yellowcateyes]

Currently at level 10 with a monk now, I am playing one, and I pretty much think the best thing about being a Monk is the ability to run away REALLY fast when soloing doesn't go well.

The issue may be with your monk's build, gear or strategies. Monks generally don't have issues solo-ing.

The class is solid, mechanically speaking. While adding some kind of linguistics bonus as representation of this PnP feat would be a nice perk, the monk class is already pretty attractive.

[Izaich]

Tongue of the Sun and Moon is an ability that has been brought up a few times before. While it's an ability I'd like to see implemented in some capacity, it's a tricky one to get right.

Languages have an interesting importance on Arelith, because they satisfy the need for privacy among certain RP niches. Good guys, bad guys, races, and some classes all get languages they can speak to one another with. For a player to 'breach the gap' and understand a new language usually takes quite awhile and a lot of RP. And that's only for one language.

Just a few questions for the playerbase to ask. If this ability were implemented as Erin Greene suggests:
Would your (non-monk) character use -languages more, or less?
How would your use of -language change with strangers, or known monks?
If you play a monk, how would you use these languages?
Would you feel this provides monks with an unfair advantage? How would this affect how you play?

I would like to add my own suggestion to the thread, and propose that every 10 levels, a monk is allowed to choose an additional language which they automatically learn. It means most monks will acquire 2 new languages, and pure monks get 3. I'm not sure if this is an ideal compromise, but it does keep languages diverse while allowing monks to bridge the language barrier in their own way.

[Valo65]

So in other words, "No, monks should continue to suck terribly and be missing something like 50% of their class abilities".

Monks suck terribly? No.

Monks are ridiculously powerful. If you want build advice I can help.

[Erin Greene]

Build advice should be uneccessary. Straight Monk, 30 levels, should be fine.

Or else the class isn't balanced.

Level 10 should mean level 10 for everyone.

But its off topic for the thread, so I wont go into it.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Where's that comment that someone made about multiclassing just being the superior option... where is it...

Rambling, Owner of All Internet Points, where is it?

That being said, I like Izaich's suggestion.

[The Rambling Midget]

Pfft... My forum tag is gone. I'm on strike.





*sigh* Fine. Is this one good enough?

[Lorkas]

30 levels of monk is fine. It's not optimal, but 30 levels of any just about class isn't optimal.

[Valo65]

Build advice should be uneccessary. Straight Monk, 30 levels, should be fine.

Or else the class isn't balanced.

Level 10 should mean level 10 for everyone.

But its off topic for the thread, so I wont go into it.

There's more to building than what classes you do or don't take. Multiclassing as a monk is likely to have distinct advantages but I could come up with a good pure monk build, I guarantee it. It may not be stronger than some similarly made multiclassed builds, but it'll still hold its own and better in some ways.

So again, monk is really strong and in no way needs buffing. Besides, if it's a buff you're looking for to make up for mechanical weakness, exactly why are we in a thread about languages? This has no effect on mechanical strength.

[Hunter548]

This is well off topic, but it amuses me greatly that monks at level 17 get an ability wizards/clerics have had since level 5 in PnP.

Ahem.

Monks are fairly powerful aside from a lack of decent gloves on the server, as I understand. I'm not sure I like turning monks into the best spies ever, either, since that (In my opinion) should be more a rogue/assassin niche. Perhaps, as an emulation, monks get a sizable bonus to lore at level, iunno, 21? Maybe give them the bardic knowledge feat? That way, they can understand languages but not automatically without putting a few points in themselves, and the typical 20 monk/5-10 rogue levels has trouble with it.

[Erin Greene]

I actually kinda like the Lore idea.

It makes us spend SOME skill points on Lore, which I've done anyhow because I am cheap and hate paying to identify random bows as a Bow.... And because it is a compromise between "No, you can not have the languages" and "You can have all the languages now"

[KregorRanger]

The crucial point on the PnP ability is that you speak, others understand, regardless, they speak, and vice versa. It's not an ability to speak all languages, more akin to the Baatezu ability of a different name. Or like the Speak in Tongues clerical spell (which is obviously not a NWN implementation since vanilla NWN doesn't have languages.)

Maybe as a meet in the middle kind of solution, Monks could gain a bonus to learning languages come the proper level?

[The Rambling Midget]

Gift of Tongues at 17?

[Izaich]

Gift of Tongues or any bonus to learning languages wouldn't be the best option because of MAD, or multiple attribute deficiency. Monks already suffer from MAD pretty heavily, and Gift of Tongues would require monks to also invest in Intelligence in order to gain any benefit from it.

I would supplement the suggestion by increasing the maximum number of languages a monk can learn by 1 per ten levels, similar to my previous suggestion.