Druids

[Dreadwolf]

I have a quick question about Druids. Would it be better to be a Totem or a normal Druid?

[Ambigue]

Depends on what your endgoal is.

NORMAL DRUID
Benefits: Better stats as your default race. The variety of animal forms you can use are more flexible AND have actual natural weapons to attack with.
Cons: You don't get wildshape until level 5, wildshaped forms are less powerful in terms of statistics than the totem's single form. Wild shape is limited to a per-day usage.


TOTEM
Benefits: Unlimited per-day totem shifting from level 1 (provided you start as one). Totem form grows in size and power more quickly than a normal druid's wildshape. Each totem comes with interesting bonuses.
Cons: -4 to all physical stats in normal form. Totem form doesn't have any natural weapons, meaning you MUST take improved unarmed combat to avoid many attacks of opportunity. Lack of natural weapons means your attacks do 1d3+STR.

[Iceborn]

I just noted the thread is duplicated <.<

I'd argue that it's a matter of preference of RP, but that wouldn't be entirely true.
Totem druids become softer, easier to hit and can carry less things, but they are given one glorious Nope button when things go south where they engage in their very, very tough totem mode. Should your animal companion survive, hopefully it will be enough to dispatch everything that tried to murder you until you can shift back, or at the very least run/slither/fly/waddle away for dear life.

On top of that, they also receive their little animal bonus, which is stick-waving worthy. Bat totems do get perma True Seeing, after all.

[Dreadwolf]

That is a good point. When a Totem wildshapes into a elemental or a dragon (with a few lvls of monk) do they become those or do they become there chosen animal form?

[Convention of Blades]

Only Wildshape turns you to your totem animal, so no, you would still be an elemental or a dragon.

[Dreadwolf]

Cool.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Totem druids are almost totally dependent on being in their shifted form; druids never have to go into their shifted form.

[CoastalSurf]

A "Totem" and a "Druid" tend to have a different RP bent to them. They are ~not, lore wise, the same thing. So I think it would be smart to do some research on the differences between the two paths.

I'm at the airport right now, so I'm going to leave it there.

Montaugh and Jagel usually hop into druid threads and both of them are quite capable of explaining the differences between the two. If I ever get out of travel land, I"ll add a bit more, but IMO going the totem path or not is a very important choice from an RP perspective, and should have some research beyond mechanics

[Griefmaker]

I agree with CoastSurf's words about totems and "druids" having a different RP bent to them, but like my totem mentions in game, they still focus on the bigger picture, which is serving Nature. They just go about it slightly differently in some ways. My guy goes into more detail IG than I wish to do on the forums (because I am lazy).

[Montaugh]

I'll try to keep this short. Mechanically Druids are behind the curve to both Totems and Rangers. Unless you want to play a Druid/Weaponmaster Or Druid/WM/* every other combo can do done and in almost all cases done better by a Totem given the exact same build as the Druid. The Druid/WM combo was mordy's quip when we had this discussion a while back. I had to concede he had a point.

Why are Druids behind the curve? Druids have no unique class features and the class features that they do have are shared completely with another class.
Druids don't even have access to -polymorph which Totems can do from level 1.
Rangers have the animal empathy thing so they are better at controlling animals better than either Druids or Rangers.
Companions are identical to all classes but Rangers(that take the pact) and Totems can separate RP from mechanics. A good example is Alenai my Druid travels with Zele a giant spider, this means Alenai as a Druid must choose the giant spider as a companion. Totems and (pacted) Rangers can also also travel with the Giant Spider but they can choose to have the base creature be a Bear, dire wolf or even a badger if they want.
When shifting Totems also merge more items into the creature (Druids only merge Helm, Armor and Shield properties, Totems can merge everything else but gauntlets if I recall)

Aren't Druids better in Melee than a Totem? Not really. A Druid or Totem isn't a Cleric and going into melee is a last resort thing to do, or done because you are going to win the fight anyways. Both classes will have the same AC potential in their human/racial forms. All that they need to do is meet the dex requirements of the armor they choose and deal with the entire dex loss thing. They can use str/wis gear to allow them to wear heavy armor and carry a tower shield, if they don't neither class really has the str to wear medium armor, nor do they typically have the dex to use the light armors. In most cases this means your humanoid AC is going to on the poor side.
Druids potentially have better AB but it usually translates to only a point or two better and that advantage goes away the moment you remember that totems can shift and have a more powerful shape. Shifting for a Druid can actually mean a reduction not only in damage, but also in AC.

Druids have more HP but again it is usually only 30-60 HP at max level and this can easily be altered by gear differences between the two.. Both the Druid and the Totem do better off taking Zen Archery and fighting from range with ranged weapons and using spells to control the field of battle. If things are going into melee the Totem is better off shifting and the Druid is better off running away as wildshapes will get you killed in melee faster than cookie monster can devour a cookie.

Remember that a Totems has every single feature that a Druid has. The difference between them is wildshape vs totem shape and totem shape walks all over wildshapes.

What about the lack of DR pen on Totems? Do what druids do.. use summons, companions, shapechange or elemental forms. Yes, the wildshape can break DR and doesn't provoke attacks of Op but the wildshapes also can not survive in melee range.

What about the RP of a Druid vs a Totem? The RP of a Druid typically gets reduced into why you didn't take the pact so the pact becomes a defining trait in a class that doesn't take it. Basically Druids don't get defined by what they aren't but rather what they are.

The RP of a Totem is typically that of a Druid with the actual pact being a secondary characteristic. I've rarely seen the cost of the RP pact RP'd but the power of the forms is almost always RP'd and the reason for a pact is usually indifferent.

Don't get me wrong.. Druids as a class aren't weak. They are a fun class to play, but between the choice of Totem and Druid the Druid is the weaker pick...

and I failed at keeping it short.

[Naiphe]

I'll try to keep this short. Mechanically Druids are behind the curve to both Totems and Rangers. Unless you want to play a Druid/Weaponmaster Or Druid/WM/* every other combo can do done and in almost all cases done better by a Totem given the exact same build as the Druid. The Druid/WM combo was mordy's quip when we had this discussion a while back. I had to concede he had a point.

I'm intrigued, was this on the old forums? I can't find any post like that in your history and I'd like to know what build that is

[Montaugh]

It was a conversation on steam that we had. It wasn't a hard and fast build but rather based on the way that the dynamic of Druid and Totem work. If a Druid can build in some fashion.. like say epic DR of 9/- than a Totem can make the exact same build as the Druid all that changes is when the Totem takes the pact offering. Because of this almost every build that you can do as a Druid can be done as a totem and in almost all cases the Totem will result in a stronger character as they can do everything that the Druid can do (elemental shape, cast spells, Dragonshape ect) the Totem will do at least as well or better if it can leverage its shifted forms.

A WM is different though. The WM's abilities can only be used in human form as you can't make your weapon of choice unarmed combat. All the physical boons for the totem pact are soft so a Druid and Totem hit the same str/dex/con stat bonuses (for gear/spells ect) but because the Druid has 4 higher str/dex/con over a totem a Druid can leverage that advantage. Since Totems and Druids can have the same exact builds if they have the same WM build the Druid will eek out 60 hitpoints, 2 damage, 2 AB, 2 reflex, and 2 fort saves over a totem with the same build, and gear choices. It isn't much of an advantage but I had to concede the point that Druids can do one thing better than a Totem can do. Not that Druid/WM is a great combination but it will almost always be better in all combination for a Druid than it is for a Totem given equal builds. The exception being Ranger/WM/Druid and Ranger/WM/Totem as the totem can avoid the pact cost making the Totem and Druid equal in human shape with the totem having the advantage with its wildshape.

[Naiphe]

I don't think rangers who take a totem gain the huge stat buffs in wildshape when they multiclass with druid, though?

[Iceborn]

Thiiiiiiiis... I don't know.
I don't know if the totem shape's power takes both ranger and druid levels, or just the higher one.
But it'd be very valuable to know the answer, if somebody out there knows.

[Lorkas]

It's druid levels only.

[Montaugh]

I don't think rangers who take a totem gain the huge stat buffs in wildshape when they multiclass with druid, though?

Rangers that take the totem and then go Druid gain the totem's wildshape. What they do not gain/lose are the stat losses and boons. So a bear ranger that goes druid wouldn't gain the +4 str/con soft bonus and won't lose the -4 to str/dex/con hard bonuses, but they do have the Totem's totem shape and not the druid's wildshape.

[Dreadwolf]

Thanks for the responses.

[Jagel]

A lot of good info and opinions here. I'll chime in.

Druids are potentially very diverse (just like most other classes). They are unified by a calling to uphold and promote some sort of natural order but their conceptions of this order or balance can be very different. Different enough that they can find very little common ground.

The totem pact factors into the druids outlook just like deity (if any) race, past experiences, personal views, weapon of choice, metamagic, spell foci etc. will.

There are many ways to play the totem pact: affecting the mannerisms and behaviour, diet and even visual appearance. Or as a disposition towards favoritism towards your pacted animal. Or a combination. Or something else. The bottom line is that like your choice of deity (or the choice of not serving a deity) should play a large role in your characters motivation, goals, outlook etc.

I agree with Montaugh: vanilla druids could use some sort of cookie that's theirs to keep seeing how totems get every mechanical perk of the class plus the totem boons/penalties. I still think vanilla druids have plenty going for them though. The act of not taking the pact is as unique a trait taking the pact if you want it to be. I've played both totems and vanilla druids and I haven't felt that the non-totem lacked in options or flavour. There is no reason that a druid without a totem pact should feel bland or boring neither in rp nor in mechanical power.

[Naiphe]

I have to admit I really wish I hadn't taken the totem path on my druid (Called Uda Ashia if anyone remembers her)

She is/was a druid focused upon the elements not animals, and I truely wish there was some way to reverse my decision. Infact since taking the pact I've really struggled to play her because she feels rather...ruined it doesn't make much sense for her to be such a cripple that shes unusable outside of form and it makes little sense with her history to be stuck in panther form.

I've actually considered rerolling her. But I have to freely admit the totem is BETTER. 100% better infact. Shes level 11 I think, in her form she does absolutely silly damage and has over 200 hp, and with the temporary hp and buffs shes even better.

She was meant to be an elemental focused druid ending with dragonshape. Like I said I will probably reroll her...but the sad thing is being elemental or spell focused is a bit of a nightmare. Spells feel like they do very little damage wise and she can't melee whatsoever. With Areliths rest system I was spending alot of time in parties just blowing all my spells within a minute or two and then stuck resorting to her sling, of course hardly hitting anything because of poor AB. The basic forms don't compare in any way to the totem form either, they aren't really an option, sadly. Even with monk levels, they just don't have the AC/AB or HP to do what they need to do.

I'm not bothered about powerbuilds or anything of that nature. But my character needs to be functional enough to level and sadly non totem druids are really a struggle

[Jagel]

I'm not bothered about powerbuilds or anything of that nature. But my character needs to be functional enough to level and sadly non totem druids are really a struggle

I really, really think you're wrong. No disrespect meant or anything but it should not be a struggle. Druids have access to both animal companion and summons from level one. If you don't mind picking on enemies a tad easier than your level (and forgo the optimal xp-gain) you should be able to let your summons handle most of your battles.

Here's a quick build:

Human
Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 18 (20 with gift)
Cha: 10

Take one of the beefy or flanking companions
Get greater spell focus by lvl 3
Max animal empathy
By lvl 6 you take zen archery and hang back with a sling (or bow if you go elf).

Tactics:
1: Hunt in places where you can empathy some of the enemies (or go somewhere to fetch a survivable empathy creature). You'll have three allies most of the time.
2: Always place yourself so that one or several of your allies are between you and the enemy you shoot at.
3: Once this enemy looks to be moving towards you, you disengage and reposition to ensure step three
4: Enemy moves and provokes attacks of opportunity from whatever allies are near. This will most likely turn the enemy's attention away from you and back to your swarm.

Or you can forgo the archery thing (at later levels you need good arrows for the damage to match your nice ranged ab). Instead just max healing and stay out of fights, focusing on healing allies instead. This will not draw aggro at all if you avoid attacks of opportunity.

By level 11 you gain elemental summons. By level 12 you gain improved animal shapes of witch badger shape is actually quite good as far as AC goes so use that in a tight situation. Keep exploring for places to gain access to good empathiable creatures (the bears of the forest seem nice enough for low to mid-lvl fare).

Use your buffs and healing spells to ensure your critters' survival and dps. Get relevant metamagic like empower and extend. Learn to use the many none offensive spells druids have access to.

Lvl 16: You now have elder elementals, elemental shape, powerful companion and many useful spells for both buffing, healing and disabling foes. From here on: breeze through life and be happy.

That's a really standard thing. Take out conjuration and put in another spell focus and things get slightly tougher but not much. Good schools for a druid: transmutation, evocation, necromancy conjuration. Illusion, abjuration and divination will be useless save for epic spells and rp purposes.

But seriously: Vanilla druids are not hard. You just do not have the luxury of the totem shape as a defensive end all.

[Iceborn]

I'd argue, Naiphe!
Mechanically speaking, druids are amazing. They have a very balanced, no pun intended, arsenal to use, but at the end of the day, they are still casters, and their role is best played with a cup of tea, behind 400 pound of glorious zealotry (read: melee classes) and pure furred/scaled/feathered awesome (read: animal companion).

And sadly, it's just the nature of NWN paired with Arelith's slow leveling. If you multiclassed as monk to have a better totem shape... well, that. You may become slightly better with the totem, but you are delaying the growth of your spells by three levels. The growth of your companion as well, which as they stand in Arelith, it's quintessential for the druid to excel in combat.

However...! It'd be... interesting if there was a way to get rid of the totem shape, at a price...

[Griefmaker]

One thing about druids (or any caster for that matter) that is pure gold is the player 1 tool. With this, battles can become a lot more tactical since they can actually control (for the most part) who the companion attacks. No longer does the druid have to whack something with a sling or jump into battle headlong so that the animal or summon rushes...you can see the mage you want eaten and guide your companion to it.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Non-totem Druids are ridiculous. Have you seen animal companions? You don't even need to be a dedicated melee build to walk through the majority of early level dungeons.

Combine that with a summon, and conjuration focuses, and you'll be so safe you make a safety vest look unsafe.

Druids are a casting class, to even begin to question their lack of viability is preposterous. Out of the gate, at level 3, a Druid gets access to Barksin and Bull's Strength. Slap on breastplate and a tower shield and you can cakewalk (be damned those who say metal is undruidic).

They also get access to the most insane wisdom-buff, and aura of vitality (now that auras are better) along with amazing AoE crowd control (grease, entangle, stonehold). A druid/zen archery AA could be dangerous.

You can't think of a Druid as a pure level 30 class. You have to be creative.

Side note: a cool non-totem perk could be access to small elemental shapes at a low level (like 8 or 9).

Tl;dr Druids are very strong.

[Dreadwolf]

So, if I want to be more of a caster and crowd control I want to go vanilla druid. Tank is a Totem druid. That seems to me what that points at, but I don't quite understand the RP difference. I get that Totems are more about animals but that still just seems like a normal druid RP to me. If someone could explain that in more detail I would much appreciate that.

[Naiphe]

I can't understand why you are all saying non totem druids are that good. Use animal companion/summon/animal empathy works fine and dandy for sure, but 2-3 xp per kill is just exhausting and animal companions have low AC so they get smacked incredibly hard constantly. As for offensive spells:

cantrips: none
level 1: none.
Level 2: Flame lash (awful)
Level 3: Call lightening (good spell)
Level 4: Flame strike (good ish but you cant use it 95% of the time because your animals/summons will turn round and smack you one)
Level 5: Ice storm (less damage than call lightening and agro's summons) Inferno (garbage)
Level 6: Drown (awesome spell finally!)

Can't remember druid past level 6 spells are like.

N.B: you can't use any of those good AOE crowd control spells either because your animal companion and summons will turn round and kill you if it affects it.

Might work much nicer with metamagic like Jagel said. Maybe I just did the entire thing wrong. I'll take a look at the build later but I'm pretty sure it was poorly done...it was my second char from coming back to nwn and got kind of thrown together. Didn't have any meta magic or spell focuses which is probably a large part of the issue