The classic debate I heard once again popping up in game, what role left for rogues when every pixie and now badger toting PC, or "rogue-3 level-tumbleUMD-dips with 1 point in lockpick the rest is gear" can open most boxes and door.
I was running around with the later, only having a single point in lockpicking and could open even artifact shrines. Up to dc 45 with a semi-decend score is very easy.
I wonder if undisarmable traps can be devised that have dismissal on trigger? Sitting under chests? So if a badger or pixie approaches it sends it back to oblivion.
Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
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Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Last edited by Winter83 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dismissal trap
For what it's worth, I've never particularly felt that a rogue is useless without the locks and traps job. It is one of classes I play most often on Arelith and this would not be the case if it were a class with no role.
There seem to be two approaches out there to making rogues useful and sought after. The first is to add heavily locked doors to dungeons, which a rogue is needed to bypass, and to disable the ability of anyone else to deal with said doors. The other is to create an abundance of foes against which a rogue will shine mechanically. The latter has always been the more enjoyable approach, to me, and is one that Arelith employs in a pretty broad fashion.
The former also poses a few problems. An overabundance of rogue-only doors and traps in dungeons simultaneously does two things: it makes rogue the only class in the game that you must have for some content. Every other class can be done without in this case, but the rogue becomes essential. It also encourages an attitude towards rogues that paints them into a much more narrow role definition: they're skill monkeys, no more, no less.
Rogue is a highly versatile, and in my opinion, pretty capable class. Good enough, at least, that their swaggering confidence shouldn't be threatened by some glorified bug in a skirt.
There seem to be two approaches out there to making rogues useful and sought after. The first is to add heavily locked doors to dungeons, which a rogue is needed to bypass, and to disable the ability of anyone else to deal with said doors. The other is to create an abundance of foes against which a rogue will shine mechanically. The latter has always been the more enjoyable approach, to me, and is one that Arelith employs in a pretty broad fashion.
The former also poses a few problems. An overabundance of rogue-only doors and traps in dungeons simultaneously does two things: it makes rogue the only class in the game that you must have for some content. Every other class can be done without in this case, but the rogue becomes essential. It also encourages an attitude towards rogues that paints them into a much more narrow role definition: they're skill monkeys, no more, no less.
Rogue is a highly versatile, and in my opinion, pretty capable class. Good enough, at least, that their swaggering confidence shouldn't be threatened by some glorified bug in a skirt.
TANSTAAFL
Re: Dismissal trap
I really see no reason for it though. I wouldnt disagree with there being dismissal traps, BUT that makes no sense in the RP of things. Lets look at DND. Dismissal wouldn't work on a pixie or a animal companion. Why should it work that way here? Its already hard enough that you lose them if you transfer between servers. Rogues can fill any slot in a party. Blasty caster, support caster, skill monkey, frontline tank, ext... you just need to BUILD them for what ever role you want. I play rogues in RL dnd all the time and have actually been scolded by DM's for making rogues that do another classes job but better because of proper preparedness. Just get creative 
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Re: Dismissal trap
Has likely been pointed out, but there is a two sided coin of balance lying as a border on the end of "encouraging balanced parties" and "balancing all classes"... mostly in that it's not a coinflip so much as a ball roll.
To do one, you have to partial the other. This is, by no means to say, that "wizards and sorcerers are useless" (though some argue clerics do a lot of things better...); but their animal companion is a class feature, and one which therefore -must- be balanced. Remove a pixie's lockwork, and you've got a real useless thing to drag around, which can no longer be a meatshield.
Plus, one can pose similar arguments as this on other skills. What good is having a lorist around in the party when everyone can toss on a pair of rings for a split second or so? How about a healer?
I think the real issue with rogue skills and such, at the present, is encouraging more class levels in it. About 80% of all warriors on arelith, right now, have rogue levels and aren't rogues in the name of sneak attacks and skill points. Normally not an issue, though when you have the 4 rogue dip barbarian cracking locks in the abyss while the full rogue is just getting more sneaks, you're doing it wrong.
To do one, you have to partial the other. This is, by no means to say, that "wizards and sorcerers are useless" (though some argue clerics do a lot of things better...); but their animal companion is a class feature, and one which therefore -must- be balanced. Remove a pixie's lockwork, and you've got a real useless thing to drag around, which can no longer be a meatshield.
Plus, one can pose similar arguments as this on other skills. What good is having a lorist around in the party when everyone can toss on a pair of rings for a split second or so? How about a healer?
I think the real issue with rogue skills and such, at the present, is encouraging more class levels in it. About 80% of all warriors on arelith, right now, have rogue levels and aren't rogues in the name of sneak attacks and skill points. Normally not an issue, though when you have the 4 rogue dip barbarian cracking locks in the abyss while the full rogue is just getting more sneaks, you're doing it wrong.
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Re: Dismissal trap
The question herein lies: What's the niche the classical "scoundrel" archetype can fill ? Those quick-witted fellows, with many tricks under their sleeves. Those who heavily utilize the classical rogue skills.
Lets have a review:
Locks & Traps: With a dip this can be dumped easily. Or pets&familiar. Rarely there's a group which cannot overcome with these challanges.
Scouting: This is the strong suit of many classes, rangers are even better in it.
DPS: You can dish out some nasty sneak attacks, but so are other classes specialized in damage: Rangers, Fighters, WMs. And while they do a constant streak of damage you are happy when you get sneakables.
Magical devices: A dip can open acccess to UMD to near every class. And most takes it. This goes for buffing too. They can do it, but not the best.
Social skills: This is one of the forte of certain scoundrel types, bards too, but little point investing in it. Only thing worth mentioning is bluff.
Tanking: Scoundrels have an inherently high ac, but they are not the best in this role. Can be tanks, but I always see this: A rogue finding himself toe-to-toe with a foe doing something wrong.
Pickpocket: Currently the only things Rogues can shine in solely. But none ever brings the class along to have a PP in the team.
Burglery: Most quarter DCs are way to high to even attempt going this route.
I dont think rogues would require mechanical tinkering, they are versataile, jack-of-all-trades. There is however a sad emptiness in the classical D&D role. Whole handbooks are about Scoundrel-types, on Rogues.
Ask yourself if you would be content or disheartened with the role you get when you bring a rogue into a party? Clear roles can make you feel good. "Oh I am needed, because I am this and that. And without me the party would be less". What's the added value of the Rogue, with Capital letter?
One role I can envision is:
Bring a scoundrel if you want to get back home richer. (even if your party thief takes a thicker profit).
Optional areas in dungeons. You can have your dungeoneering fun, but if you have a Rogue along you'll have access to more coins, more secret chests with goodies. Those secret chambers with tons of traps, locks, puzzles and chests with superb baubles, tons of coins.
Back on the starting idea Dismissal trap was something to prevent non-scoundrels to access areas like these, chests etc. I emphasize again, such would not make dungeons requiring Rogues, as chest and secret areas can be completely optional. But would yield more profit were you have one along.
Lets have a review:
Locks & Traps: With a dip this can be dumped easily. Or pets&familiar. Rarely there's a group which cannot overcome with these challanges.
Scouting: This is the strong suit of many classes, rangers are even better in it.
DPS: You can dish out some nasty sneak attacks, but so are other classes specialized in damage: Rangers, Fighters, WMs. And while they do a constant streak of damage you are happy when you get sneakables.
Magical devices: A dip can open acccess to UMD to near every class. And most takes it. This goes for buffing too. They can do it, but not the best.
Social skills: This is one of the forte of certain scoundrel types, bards too, but little point investing in it. Only thing worth mentioning is bluff.
Tanking: Scoundrels have an inherently high ac, but they are not the best in this role. Can be tanks, but I always see this: A rogue finding himself toe-to-toe with a foe doing something wrong.
Pickpocket: Currently the only things Rogues can shine in solely. But none ever brings the class along to have a PP in the team.
Burglery: Most quarter DCs are way to high to even attempt going this route.
I dont think rogues would require mechanical tinkering, they are versataile, jack-of-all-trades. There is however a sad emptiness in the classical D&D role. Whole handbooks are about Scoundrel-types, on Rogues.
Ask yourself if you would be content or disheartened with the role you get when you bring a rogue into a party? Clear roles can make you feel good. "Oh I am needed, because I am this and that. And without me the party would be less". What's the added value of the Rogue, with Capital letter?
One role I can envision is:
Bring a scoundrel if you want to get back home richer. (even if your party thief takes a thicker profit).
Optional areas in dungeons. You can have your dungeoneering fun, but if you have a Rogue along you'll have access to more coins, more secret chests with goodies. Those secret chambers with tons of traps, locks, puzzles and chests with superb baubles, tons of coins.
Back on the starting idea Dismissal trap was something to prevent non-scoundrels to access areas like these, chests etc. I emphasize again, such would not make dungeons requiring Rogues, as chest and secret areas can be completely optional. But would yield more profit were you have one along.
Re: Dismissal trap
This is good point. On the other hand, most rogues take a dip in warrior class to achieve even greater versatility, get full BAB, weapon proficiencies and other cookies. Rogue 25/Fighter 5 is good example of this. Nothing wrong with such approach.DestroyerOTN wrote:About 80% of all warriors on arelith, right now, have rogue levels and aren't rogues in the name of sneak attacks and skill points.
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EDIT: Also, you neglected one area in which Rogues tend to excel, Winter: setting traps in combat.
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Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
I feel like you want Rogues to be this absolutely needed class? They are usefull yes, but there is no class in the game that is NEEDED to do any dungeon, or reach any areas as far as I know. They gave rogues exactly what you asked for though... rogues get to notice secret doors now, which sounds like what you asked for. As for the multiclassing, thats on the dev's and DM's. There is ALOT of powerbuilding on Arelith, and very little penalty to it. Fighter rogue? Basically pick any RP u want. Not alot of room for a dm to patrol that. Druid/Monk/COT? Thats another story and there is alot for dm's to patrol. It all depends on the class combo, althogh I will give you that most mele's like to take rogue because if they stack lockpick/disabletrap on some gear (which they can carry cause they have high str from being a mele) and just carry it on them so they can solo more. Not gona lie, its hard to find groups sometimes, depending on ur play hours. And then its a matter of finding a group thats your lv too. Its great RP to go on a adventure with that lv 25 with 3-4 lv 7's but all of them get 1-3 exp per kill on the adventure? Strictly talking about exp wise, its much more time effective to solo at that point in a area that is meant for lv's 5 (your a lv 7 for example) where you get 10-15 exp. Arelith takes a wierd approach to EXP, most likely because of coding. You just have to understand that because its most viable to take a few dips into rogue to solo or for when ur with 1-2 other people who arn't rogues is just very good. All that said, the dev's are trying to make going further down one class more and more effective. (eg. Druid animal companions get a huge boost at lv 30).
If it makes you feel any better though, I play a totem druid, and when I'm in a party, my only real role is party buffer. Then im mostly useless combat wise after that. Unwildshaped- 1d4 sling or 1d6-1 sickle. Wildshaped- 1d4+6 dmg. If it has DR 5 i CAN hurt it, if it has DR10 I just can't hurt it. If it has regeneration, I can't kill it. Druids have no way to increase their dmg except to lv up and let their str increase, which the DR's increase as well. I've just accepted that I will never be able to do dmg for a party. The reason I even added this paragraph The #1 way people have said to increase my dmg is to take rogue lv's... its the fastest way to increase one's mele dmg. I have not done this because I believe in the druid 30 purist path, but ya, you gota relise that rogue gives so much for just a few lv's that every mele ever wants it.
Just my observation, but I think the big problems here you face are:
1) A few lv's of rogue benefit mele's more than taking thoes lv's in almost any other class
2) Rogues are inherantly sapost to be "Jacks of all trade" as you said, therefore meaning they fill no specific roll, but rather fill 60% of all roles.
If it makes you feel any better though, I play a totem druid, and when I'm in a party, my only real role is party buffer. Then im mostly useless combat wise after that. Unwildshaped- 1d4 sling or 1d6-1 sickle. Wildshaped- 1d4+6 dmg. If it has DR 5 i CAN hurt it, if it has DR10 I just can't hurt it. If it has regeneration, I can't kill it. Druids have no way to increase their dmg except to lv up and let their str increase, which the DR's increase as well. I've just accepted that I will never be able to do dmg for a party. The reason I even added this paragraph The #1 way people have said to increase my dmg is to take rogue lv's... its the fastest way to increase one's mele dmg. I have not done this because I believe in the druid 30 purist path, but ya, you gota relise that rogue gives so much for just a few lv's that every mele ever wants it.
Just my observation, but I think the big problems here you face are:
1) A few lv's of rogue benefit mele's more than taking thoes lv's in almost any other class
2) Rogues are inherantly sapost to be "Jacks of all trade" as you said, therefore meaning they fill no specific roll, but rather fill 60% of all roles.
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Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Not an absolutely needed class, no.
Something which can encourage people to explore rogue-heavy concepts.
Something to have Rogue-concepts' fans to feel: "Ohman, this party absolutely benefits from me having around" The emphasize here is on benefit.
If you have a healer around your party becomes more durable. If you have a caster around, your party benefits from buffs and boss-nuking, etc. What benefit the Rogue brings to the party?
Rogue's main forte besides the sneak-damaging are Skills.
They are most skilled characters in this game. Skills are mostly about interaction with the game-world in non-hostile ways.
If we do not take the skills that are common in other class-builds, like detection/stealth, we come down to a well demarcated skill-set. Traps & Locks & Social skills.
There's a "thief" written into every fantasy story, every adventure, every movie. The "Scoundrel" is an absolute archetype in every form of media. And it feels like its a bit underrepresented on the server. I'd wager it is mainly because there're little to encourage going Rogue-heavy concepts.
I am very well aware why the class is the top-most favorite multi classing option. ATM I would bet coins on it Rogue class is the most frequently picked. To a certain level. What is the average rogue levels players take, I wonder. I'd wager around 3-13 (From the dip to the Epic Dodge)
The class itself IMHO requires no mechanical tinkering like the Fighter to gain popularity. More RP options, more Skills-related environment interactions would definitely increase the popularity of the class, and I can imagine new and refreshing concepts would sprout from it.
I am yet to explore the module for those Secret doors, but yes, things like those are the right way to have skill-monkeys shine a bit more often.
Some new ways to use -investigate perhaps. Some new ways to use Persuade. Or Pickpocket. Not to mention thief's cant which is the most commonly known language with the Dips.
Something which can encourage people to explore rogue-heavy concepts.
Something to have Rogue-concepts' fans to feel: "Ohman, this party absolutely benefits from me having around" The emphasize here is on benefit.
If you have a healer around your party becomes more durable. If you have a caster around, your party benefits from buffs and boss-nuking, etc. What benefit the Rogue brings to the party?
Rogue's main forte besides the sneak-damaging are Skills.
They are most skilled characters in this game. Skills are mostly about interaction with the game-world in non-hostile ways.
If we do not take the skills that are common in other class-builds, like detection/stealth, we come down to a well demarcated skill-set. Traps & Locks & Social skills.
There's a "thief" written into every fantasy story, every adventure, every movie. The "Scoundrel" is an absolute archetype in every form of media. And it feels like its a bit underrepresented on the server. I'd wager it is mainly because there're little to encourage going Rogue-heavy concepts.
I am very well aware why the class is the top-most favorite multi classing option. ATM I would bet coins on it Rogue class is the most frequently picked. To a certain level. What is the average rogue levels players take, I wonder. I'd wager around 3-13 (From the dip to the Epic Dodge)
The class itself IMHO requires no mechanical tinkering like the Fighter to gain popularity. More RP options, more Skills-related environment interactions would definitely increase the popularity of the class, and I can imagine new and refreshing concepts would sprout from it.
I am yet to explore the module for those Secret doors, but yes, things like those are the right way to have skill-monkeys shine a bit more often.
Some new ways to use -investigate perhaps. Some new ways to use Persuade. Or Pickpocket. Not to mention thief's cant which is the most commonly known language with the Dips.
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Personally, I think that you should not be able to take epic feats that are for a specific class unless you have epic lv's in that specific class. If you are a lv 25 fighter strait, and take a lv in rogue, why is that considered enough to be considered a epic lv rogue for purposes of getting feats like epic dodge. I think that epic feats should be more restricted. If you want epic dodge, go rogue 21+ and then u can take ur fighter lv's to get ur whatever if u really want to. But i think this would encourage being full blown (class) in every aspect. Multi-classing is WAY too powerful. I think it needs to be toned back in a harsh way personally, obviously this wouldn't effect "Prestige" classes, but taking multiple core classes should be punished a bit more I think.
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Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Multiclassing is relatively fine as is. It's been a bit of a long push to get there, but with one notable exception (Barbarian), all the mundane or mundane-ish classes have good reasons out there to take anywhere between 3 and 20-26 levels of the class. Casters have reasons to stay pure and to multiclass. Spellswords are relatively viable. Not an issue imo.
Regarding the role of the rogue:
I wholeheartedly agree with the notion of bonus areas that will net a party maybe 10-20% extra gold and a bit of extra XP. I misunderstood the initial intent of the trap, and was thinking the OP was intending something more like the structure of several dungeons in the module where progress stops dead partway through without a rogue.
In other role areas, rogue maintains one of the best damage-and-survivability balances in the game. WMs and rangers can be built for damage, but none of them will hit he sort of damage ranges a rogue can, if built for sheer damage. There is a hang up on this, though in that dungeons have themes which on occasion are imminently un-accommodating of rogues. Personally, I would like to see the concentrations of sneak and crit immunities homogenized a little: put some crit-sneak immune creatures and some crit-sneak vulnerable creatures in just about every dungeon, and you suddenly have a situation where you want to achieve a blend of damage styles, and you'd almost always find things easier to handle with a rogue.
Rogues also have the skill points to field a strong combination of stealth and detection, making them invaluable in areas with stealth-loading monsters. If I had one concern to raise on this matter, it would be that these monsters are not common or dangerous enough (usually, those little slime crawler thingies in the UD are nasty) to make a blind party feel vulnerable.
Regarding the role of the rogue:
I wholeheartedly agree with the notion of bonus areas that will net a party maybe 10-20% extra gold and a bit of extra XP. I misunderstood the initial intent of the trap, and was thinking the OP was intending something more like the structure of several dungeons in the module where progress stops dead partway through without a rogue.
In other role areas, rogue maintains one of the best damage-and-survivability balances in the game. WMs and rangers can be built for damage, but none of them will hit he sort of damage ranges a rogue can, if built for sheer damage. There is a hang up on this, though in that dungeons have themes which on occasion are imminently un-accommodating of rogues. Personally, I would like to see the concentrations of sneak and crit immunities homogenized a little: put some crit-sneak immune creatures and some crit-sneak vulnerable creatures in just about every dungeon, and you suddenly have a situation where you want to achieve a blend of damage styles, and you'd almost always find things easier to handle with a rogue.
Rogues also have the skill points to field a strong combination of stealth and detection, making them invaluable in areas with stealth-loading monsters. If I had one concern to raise on this matter, it would be that these monsters are not common or dangerous enough (usually, those little slime crawler thingies in the UD are nasty) to make a blind party feel vulnerable.
TANSTAAFL
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
I've tried to add more dungeon shortcuts and bonus treasure secured by high(er) DC doors and whatnot, but I suppose the fairy/badger will sniff those out just as well as a rogue. Concerning some of the dungeon requests posted above, I also tried this approach with the Manor of Mourn, where you'll encounter a mix of undead and humanoids (for the crit/uncrittable thing) and also several stealthed scout critters too. I'd think that would be a challenging dungeon, but I rarely get feedback on it. This is something I'd like to spread out to some of the other dungeons more though.
Something we learned from FL early on though was that its just not fun to restrict treasure chests to Rogue only. We had to quickly change the code around to reduce the traps and lock chances on them entirely. So, if there's a lot of classes now that can get in them, that's not a terrible thing.
Something we learned from FL early on though was that its just not fun to restrict treasure chests to Rogue only. We had to quickly change the code around to reduce the traps and lock chances on them entirely. So, if there's a lot of classes now that can get in them, that's not a terrible thing.
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Why put a bonus treasure behind a lock if you can hide them or make the way to it open after some puzzle? =D
Would be nice to see Search, Lore and other skills having some more uses. And puzzles is aways nice. So are riddles! (maybe requesting a chat entry and such)
Would be nice to see Search, Lore and other skills having some more uses. And puzzles is aways nice. So are riddles! (maybe requesting a chat entry and such)
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Art, I think the concept of "restricting to rogue only" that others have presented misses the mark.
Perhaps the enhancement should take on the point of view of "yeah, you can do X and go to Y without the rogue, but if you HAVE a rogue, doing X and going to Y is OH SO MUCH easier and quicker!"
Traditionally D&D rules restrict traps of a DC30 or above to be disabled by ROGUE ONLY. -this is 3rd Edition rule as well IIRC.
Perhaps the intruduction of "Thieves Tools" as an item carried in your inventory that is Rogue-Only device that grants a bonus on rogue-type skills. Maybe even tie the bonus specifically to the number of rogue-levels a character has, so that a PC who has invested 23 levels in rogue is MUCH MUCH more effective at Roguey-Skills than a PC who only has 4 or 5 levels in Rogue... then certain locks could have their DC's dramatically increased to a level that ONLY a PC with a bunch of rogue-levels could get through.
an example of something that Rogues would bring to Dungeouneering experience would be the ability of "FIXING" a broken lock... i mean, if rogues are so good at 'unlocking' something, i don't think it's that much of a stretch to think they can fix one that's broken... and putting a few "DOORS" with 'broken locks' in key spots along the path through said dungeoun that insanely shortens your trip... or gives access to 'keys' or some switch that unblocks a passage to access a short-cut, etc.. etc..
this all gives value to the rogue as a dungeoneering party-member that doesn't translate into being "ESSENTIAL" but definitely VERY attractive to have along!
Perhaps the enhancement should take on the point of view of "yeah, you can do X and go to Y without the rogue, but if you HAVE a rogue, doing X and going to Y is OH SO MUCH easier and quicker!"
Traditionally D&D rules restrict traps of a DC30 or above to be disabled by ROGUE ONLY. -this is 3rd Edition rule as well IIRC.
Perhaps the intruduction of "Thieves Tools" as an item carried in your inventory that is Rogue-Only device that grants a bonus on rogue-type skills. Maybe even tie the bonus specifically to the number of rogue-levels a character has, so that a PC who has invested 23 levels in rogue is MUCH MUCH more effective at Roguey-Skills than a PC who only has 4 or 5 levels in Rogue... then certain locks could have their DC's dramatically increased to a level that ONLY a PC with a bunch of rogue-levels could get through.
an example of something that Rogues would bring to Dungeouneering experience would be the ability of "FIXING" a broken lock... i mean, if rogues are so good at 'unlocking' something, i don't think it's that much of a stretch to think they can fix one that's broken... and putting a few "DOORS" with 'broken locks' in key spots along the path through said dungeoun that insanely shortens your trip... or gives access to 'keys' or some switch that unblocks a passage to access a short-cut, etc.. etc..
this all gives value to the rogue as a dungeoneering party-member that doesn't translate into being "ESSENTIAL" but definitely VERY attractive to have along!
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Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
It's only a 3rd edition rule. There's no such thing as DC before that and the rule went away after that.The Kriv wrote:Traditionally D&D rules restrict traps of a DC30 or above to be disabled by ROGUE ONLY. -this is 3rd Edition rule as well IIRC.
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Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
That's also the case in NWN- Only rogues can disarm 35 DC or higher traps.
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Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Which means everyone.
Animal companions have a dip of rogue in their class. Dont sure about pixie.
Also those who take the class for skill dumping. So. While the idea of the rogue-only traps is sweet, in practice it is pointless, since rogue is one of the most favourite multiclassing options and would not help the case a bit.
I like the way you approached the situation Artos. Dungeons that can be solved multiple ways increase the game's fun factor.
I can imagine new uses for old skills in the following ways:
Pickpocket:
-Certain marked mobs papers with a secret word, which can be PP-ed. The secret word used can open a secret door with some extra goodies. The word changes each time.
-A guardian golem can be interacted with, a brings up an option if you have a certain ammount of Pickpocket skill. The option is along the lines of carefully remove this & than from the statue's mechanism, without it noticing. Upon success certain traps are disarmed in the dungeon.
Persuade:
-Can persuade certain NPCs to give you crafting material. It's the weak characters' mining. Why go out into the mosquito-filled jungle when you can mine coal through this or that NPC, once a day by persuading him? Ask the Nomad's barkeep to let you have some salt? (Once-per day ability to gain a small ammount of material used for crafting) Or get 1 skleen once a day.
Set Trap
-Through search you find a secret control room, where you get a dialogou option on a machine. 1, Lore: Decipher the use of the mechanism. 2, Set trap: fill it with gas capsules / Ruin.
If you filled it with gas capsulas the trap in the boss's room trigger filling the room with gas, weakening the otherwise nasty boss. If you ruin the contraption, it wont trigger when -you- enter, which it otherwise would.
Disarm
- Repair a mechanism through a dialogue window, which would open you a door to a secret goodie, or open a shortcut , etc.
Bluff
-Classical bluff your way past locked doors. Opening to special areas. Once more not only rogue-only skill, but skill-interaction.
-Bluff a blind/dumb guard to give you a key. (or you can just kill him to get it)
Complex skill challanges:
A dragon boss: If you pass a series of skill-challanges, you can get to the treasure without a fight. If you dont have skillmonkeys you can always chose to combat the dragon, either attacking or if you go near him and touch the door the dragon awakens and become hostile.
Skill puzzles can be the following. Dragon sleeping. A kobold minion near it. You click the kobold the skill puzzles commence:
- Hide/Ms: Apprach the kobold quietly who busy tending the dragon master. If failed, the kobold awakens the dragon. If succeeded, the next challange comes:
- Pick-pocket: Try to snatch the key from the kobold which can open a secret door to the treasure room. If failed, you need Bluff and persuade skills to get the key from the minion. Either way works. Good if you dont have PP. If that fails too use intimidate if you are a bully. If you have neither, you can gamble with an initiative roll to silence the kobold before it awakens the dragon. if succeeded go on.
- Hide/Ms: Get away from the dragon & kobold minion.
[Lore puzzles]: For you all lorists.
-diaglogues for deciphering codes, scripts etc. Upon success you get a secret goodie you'd otherwise not (like a magic-scoll).
Appraise:
-You are given an option in the dungeon to choose from 5 identical looking rings. A successful appraise wont let you fooled by the devious contraption and you can pick the higher value yet identical looking one. Which sells for moar coins.
Dunno. Brainstorming here.
Point is, not even to restrict to rogues, but offer a few extra goodies for non hostile approach/ skill monkeys. These options are all about:
A) Extra yield
B) Shortcut
C) Easier boss fight
Can be done without, but with a skill-monkey it'd make a happier team.
I've seen here and there Skill dependant dialogues in the module already.
Animal companions have a dip of rogue in their class. Dont sure about pixie.
Also those who take the class for skill dumping. So. While the idea of the rogue-only traps is sweet, in practice it is pointless, since rogue is one of the most favourite multiclassing options and would not help the case a bit.
I like the way you approached the situation Artos. Dungeons that can be solved multiple ways increase the game's fun factor.
I can imagine new uses for old skills in the following ways:
Pickpocket:
-Certain marked mobs papers with a secret word, which can be PP-ed. The secret word used can open a secret door with some extra goodies. The word changes each time.
-A guardian golem can be interacted with, a brings up an option if you have a certain ammount of Pickpocket skill. The option is along the lines of carefully remove this & than from the statue's mechanism, without it noticing. Upon success certain traps are disarmed in the dungeon.
Persuade:
-Can persuade certain NPCs to give you crafting material. It's the weak characters' mining. Why go out into the mosquito-filled jungle when you can mine coal through this or that NPC, once a day by persuading him? Ask the Nomad's barkeep to let you have some salt? (Once-per day ability to gain a small ammount of material used for crafting) Or get 1 skleen once a day.
Set Trap
-Through search you find a secret control room, where you get a dialogou option on a machine. 1, Lore: Decipher the use of the mechanism. 2, Set trap: fill it with gas capsules / Ruin.
If you filled it with gas capsulas the trap in the boss's room trigger filling the room with gas, weakening the otherwise nasty boss. If you ruin the contraption, it wont trigger when -you- enter, which it otherwise would.
Disarm
- Repair a mechanism through a dialogue window, which would open you a door to a secret goodie, or open a shortcut , etc.
Bluff
-Classical bluff your way past locked doors. Opening to special areas. Once more not only rogue-only skill, but skill-interaction.
-Bluff a blind/dumb guard to give you a key. (or you can just kill him to get it)
Complex skill challanges:
A dragon boss: If you pass a series of skill-challanges, you can get to the treasure without a fight. If you dont have skillmonkeys you can always chose to combat the dragon, either attacking or if you go near him and touch the door the dragon awakens and become hostile.
Skill puzzles can be the following. Dragon sleeping. A kobold minion near it. You click the kobold the skill puzzles commence:
- Hide/Ms: Apprach the kobold quietly who busy tending the dragon master. If failed, the kobold awakens the dragon. If succeeded, the next challange comes:
- Pick-pocket: Try to snatch the key from the kobold which can open a secret door to the treasure room. If failed, you need Bluff and persuade skills to get the key from the minion. Either way works. Good if you dont have PP. If that fails too use intimidate if you are a bully. If you have neither, you can gamble with an initiative roll to silence the kobold before it awakens the dragon. if succeeded go on.
- Hide/Ms: Get away from the dragon & kobold minion.
[Lore puzzles]: For you all lorists.
-diaglogues for deciphering codes, scripts etc. Upon success you get a secret goodie you'd otherwise not (like a magic-scoll).
Appraise:
-You are given an option in the dungeon to choose from 5 identical looking rings. A successful appraise wont let you fooled by the devious contraption and you can pick the higher value yet identical looking one. Which sells for moar coins.
Dunno. Brainstorming here.
Point is, not even to restrict to rogues, but offer a few extra goodies for non hostile approach/ skill monkeys. These options are all about:
A) Extra yield
B) Shortcut
C) Easier boss fight
Can be done without, but with a skill-monkey it'd make a happier team.
I've seen here and there Skill dependant dialogues in the module already.
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
I like the ideas of everything you just posted here, but my question to you is what is to stop that fighter12-rogue6-barb12 from just carrying around 4 sets of gear with his 35str and putting on a set of gear with MS/Hide/Lockpicking/ANY SKILLS. Putting skills on gear offers very little cost, and very little increase in %chance to fail. I wouldn't want to see that aspect changed from the game, but if they took your route this is how everyone would get around it without having to find a high lv rogue or something? Im talkign hypothetically, but I have seen people carry around thousands of pounds of stuff at a time, there is nothing to stop them from getting say +20 to multiple skills from one set of armor, and then just switching back into their combat armor after. And now we're back to square 1 of this question? I think your problem about making a skill monkey useful is that anyone can be a skill monkey with the right gear. Unless they start making dc's something ABSOLUTELLY not makable unless your strait rogue, and at that point we have now limited the module to needing rogue 30's and we remove their ability to multiclass. I feel this is a case of you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Be Prepared
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Yes, equipment can make everyone super Roguish. However. It has a certain limit. Unless you put a number of points (not insanely lot, like 10 for instance) into a skill no matter the gear you wont beat the dc. And those dcs wont be stupidly high neither.
ATM Average Joe with +4 Dex modifier, +1 cross-classed point in lock picking, a set of utility tools, changing amulet, belt, and rings, bracers, can open locks of DC 45.
That DC 45-ish is about that fine line which divides the Dip-rogues from Rogues.
Surely a dip-rogue can beat higher locks with extra effort, but most wont bother. It requires a lot of extra space in the inventory, or rare/expensive lockpicking tools, etc.
If you have the DC increased to 50 that'd remove the Dip-rogues from the competition. Increase it 55-60 will remove animal companion competitors (At level 30-ish a rat ends up around 38-ish disarm).
And that's something a rogue with a little effort can easily beat. (Average Rogue: +10 from dex modifier, +10 from skills, +14 from gear +20 for the roll -->54 & tiny more effort. And mind me this is a level 10 rogue)
Dc 70-ish are in the range of very high, which would require specialized thieves. Quarter lock range is the insane high which can be beaten only by certain class-setups.
---------------------Getting over the math and numbers---------------------------------
I've been reading a few manuals and source books (Complete Scoundrel, Quintessential Rogue, etc), which stirred me up. Many concepts, ideas cannot be implemented as there are no game mechanics to cover those. NWN was designed to be a hack&slash game and it is functional like that.
Rogues in general suffer from these Game-mechanics, similarly to Rangers.
In a game world where you cannot get lost, don't ever starve, cant climb trees, swim over fords, don't need skills of survival, locks and traps are 2-dimensional, cannot do in general a lot of things what made Skill-focused classes popular in lore&media, they are easily out-shined by hack&slash classes casters included. The main role their whole concept was reduced to: Sneak-stabbing, Locks&Traps. (May I add in the Official Campaign, Tomi Undergallows was the most popular Henchman because he could properly fulfill these roles. )
The case I have here is not merely about Rogues, but Skill-focus in general. Opening new paths to apply these skills IMHO can be beneficial to the module as it would give avoided concepts a reason to emerge. More than one way to approach a problem is a path lined up with role-play ideas.
Extra: Little somethings like tying Thieves cant to Rogue levels would very nice. Currently if you dare to use that sign language chances are everyone else in the room will understand it
ATM Average Joe with +4 Dex modifier, +1 cross-classed point in lock picking, a set of utility tools, changing amulet, belt, and rings, bracers, can open locks of DC 45.
That DC 45-ish is about that fine line which divides the Dip-rogues from Rogues.
Surely a dip-rogue can beat higher locks with extra effort, but most wont bother. It requires a lot of extra space in the inventory, or rare/expensive lockpicking tools, etc.
If you have the DC increased to 50 that'd remove the Dip-rogues from the competition. Increase it 55-60 will remove animal companion competitors (At level 30-ish a rat ends up around 38-ish disarm).
And that's something a rogue with a little effort can easily beat. (Average Rogue: +10 from dex modifier, +10 from skills, +14 from gear +20 for the roll -->54 & tiny more effort. And mind me this is a level 10 rogue)
Dc 70-ish are in the range of very high, which would require specialized thieves. Quarter lock range is the insane high which can be beaten only by certain class-setups.
---------------------Getting over the math and numbers---------------------------------
I've been reading a few manuals and source books (Complete Scoundrel, Quintessential Rogue, etc), which stirred me up. Many concepts, ideas cannot be implemented as there are no game mechanics to cover those. NWN was designed to be a hack&slash game and it is functional like that.
Rogues in general suffer from these Game-mechanics, similarly to Rangers.
In a game world where you cannot get lost, don't ever starve, cant climb trees, swim over fords, don't need skills of survival, locks and traps are 2-dimensional, cannot do in general a lot of things what made Skill-focused classes popular in lore&media, they are easily out-shined by hack&slash classes casters included. The main role their whole concept was reduced to: Sneak-stabbing, Locks&Traps. (May I add in the Official Campaign, Tomi Undergallows was the most popular Henchman because he could properly fulfill these roles. )
The case I have here is not merely about Rogues, but Skill-focus in general. Opening new paths to apply these skills IMHO can be beneficial to the module as it would give avoided concepts a reason to emerge. More than one way to approach a problem is a path lined up with role-play ideas.
Extra: Little somethings like tying Thieves cant to Rogue levels would very nice. Currently if you dare to use that sign language chances are everyone else in the room will understand it
Last edited by Winter83 on Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
True, but If we are going to bring RL DND into the world of Arelith, then my only response is "Knock Spell", and an adamantine axe. Why go through the door? I'lljust cut through the wall to my right 10 feet and then go through the wall of the room, avoiding the trap. Oh, there's a locked chest? *Insert knock spell here*. Opened XD. We cant compare dnd to arelith as spellcasters make any non-caster obsolete. *See Thay society here* XD
Personally I like the way Arelith is set up for the most part.
Personally I like the way Arelith is set up for the most part.
Be Prepared
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
DaTexican I'd not wish to go into extremes, neither I said to bring in more Pen&Paper to the module, you either miss my point, or I am a terribly poor writer.
I underlined my opinion why skill-focused classes lagging behind in popularity compared to other classes. Their forte simply has not been implemented in game properly. (Not in Arelith, but in NWN in general. Mind me the developers of Arelith have made a lot of alterations to the game to increase popularity of skill-classes. )
That said, skill-challenges in general wont hurt the other classes, neither would upset the balance, wont make none OP, or spoil the game of others.
They would increase the usefulness of skill-monkeys, offer additional solutions, motivate new concepts which haven't been even poked with a stick before.
I underlined my opinion why skill-focused classes lagging behind in popularity compared to other classes. Their forte simply has not been implemented in game properly. (Not in Arelith, but in NWN in general. Mind me the developers of Arelith have made a lot of alterations to the game to increase popularity of skill-classes. )
That said, skill-challenges in general wont hurt the other classes, neither would upset the balance, wont make none OP, or spoil the game of others.
They would increase the usefulness of skill-monkeys, offer additional solutions, motivate new concepts which haven't been even poked with a stick before.
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Ahh I see. I think because I have read this over a few days, I had forgotten, as I just went back and reread the previous posts. I appologise, I see what your getting at now. For some reason I thought you were looking to make impossibly hard locks or something along thoes lines. My B XD. Sorry for the confusion. I'll have to reread long running articles like this.
I do like the idea of using shortcuts and hidden rooms in dungeons though. Encountered this one ingame already with hidden rooms that our rogue found. It'd b nice to see more things like that, as I think that's what your getting at.
I do like the idea of using shortcuts and hidden rooms in dungeons though. Encountered this one ingame already with hidden rooms that our rogue found. It'd b nice to see more things like that, as I think that's what your getting at.
Be Prepared
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Stuff like that indeed
Small things. That would make the party pat the skill-monkeys on the shoulder, and fill the skill-monkey's heart with usefulness.
Small things. That would make the party pat the skill-monkeys on the shoulder, and fill the skill-monkey's heart with usefulness.
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
So an Idea then, since I know you also like the bluff skill. IF the dev's added the "feint" feats into the game from DND, where you can make a bluff attempt to make your enemies flat footed? IK its a bit off from the traps and hidden passages that were discussed, but it would make a good use of the bluff skill at least
Be Prepared
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
Also if they added knowledge under skills, you could do a -looks emote to make a dungeneering check to mby know some things about the mobs ahead while your in stealth and can report back what your up against and how to fight them proper before entering into combat?
Be Prepared
Re: Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R
While I absolutely love feinting, both in pnp and the NWN 2 adaptation of the maneuver, I don't think bluff needs any more love at the moment. It's already a highly useful skill. It might also be very difficult to script, and balancing it would require a few tweaks to make sure it scaled reasonably.
Regarding the gear sets letting a character effectively pass all those checks, the best answer would be to calculate all of the checks in the same manner that lore checks to understand languages are rolled: exclude gear bonuses.
And Artos, regarding Mourn: I absolutely love the current incarnation of that dungeon, and was the main case example I was thinking of when referring to dungeons with mixed creature/immunity types.
Regarding the gear sets letting a character effectively pass all those checks, the best answer would be to calculate all of the checks in the same manner that lore checks to understand languages are rolled: exclude gear bonuses.
And Artos, regarding Mourn: I absolutely love the current incarnation of that dungeon, and was the main case example I was thinking of when referring to dungeons with mixed creature/immunity types.
TANSTAAFL