Discussion: Remembering the Fugue

[Tashalar]

Personally, I don't believe that the Fugue should be remembered. It makes death flimsy, and is cringeworthy when someone runs up and discusses their own death and time in the Fugue Plane freely. I don't take part in this sort of RP, and feel that it cheapens everything to do with death/murder/related-investigations.

Given the policy has been in place for a while, some feedback and discussion of general playerbase feeling seems appropriate.

So, what do you think?
I'd made a poll, but if you have alternative suggestions or feelings on your own decision (or indecision!) on the subject, feel free to write them here.

[Moonbro]

I agree. Remembering Fugue is immersion breaking and should be changed. It's bad enough I have to run through a maze.

[gilescorey]

It's not my favourite rule. The new Fugue (as in, the area) itself is pretty cool, though

[Peppermint]

I RP less after the change, not more, in the fugue.

Death RP used to be kind of fun. Amusing or philosophical, whatever. But I suppose the "remembering my death" aspect just doesn't gel with me, so now I'm more inclined to go AFK there, lest others use something they heard ICly (as they're now allowed to do).

Also, I find the maze annoying. There, I said it.

[sporting1]

It damages the server more than it helps.

I've played here on arelith for quite some time, even though my absence period is almost just as long. In the old days, remembering death was against the rules, simply because it rendered such things as an assassination pointless. Your character is killed, remembers the assailant, starts forming a payback, etc... Then the other guy endures the same, and we have neverending drama.

It also completely brings immersion to an all time new low, when my character starts hearing people around her say "This guy killed me! He's a murderer!". How are we supposed to act to this? I don't know about you, but I have to wave it or else I'm going to have headaches.

Just my two cents.

[Kreydis]

It also completely brings immersion to an all time new low

"It's fine, they just killed her, it's not like she's dead."

[Tarkus the dog]

I just tell people "Ghosts can't talk, dummy." like a trash meme-spewing bastard I am and use the soul gate and never speak of that ever again.

But no, I don't think characters should remember it.

[P Three]

I've never thought it made sense. Up to death? Sure. Absolutely. Makes sense.

After? Nope.

[SteelsSweets]

Firstly, no. I don't think characters should remember the fugue.

That being said, here is how I've always played it on this server and others.

There can be some awesome and highly emotional RP in the fugue.

It would be a shame to lose all of it, IMO.

If that happens to my character, I usually RP them having an odd feeling toward the other party but being unsure why or exactly what.

If it was positive RP then a general feeling of positivity toward the other character. If negative RP then obviously the opposite.

Just my two cents.

[sporting1]

It would also be apropriate if we had alternatives to just outright killing other pcs. Subdual systems for example, much like the one that automatically takes place in the Arena. It comes to mind that death should be something rarer, and far less trivial. It should feel like it is a burden, instead of something we can simply log out of to cool off and come back as if nothing took place.

I am alright with the xp hit, as I am with the current penalty of death. But there should be something to balance out the very low loss of exp.

[Bashagain]

Fugue is Arelihian Vegas: What happens in Fugue stays in Fugue. As for ghosts remembering what just happened to them in life right before coming into Fugue, go hog wild!

As for the current death maze, it's perfect. The ability penalty is very appropriate as it takes the player off the battle field and play for at least a few hours.

[Kreydis]

It comes to mind that death should be something rarer, and far less trivial. It should feel like it is a burden

Rarer, perhaps not, but PvP deaths are rare enough as is. But every attempt I've seen at making death feel like a horrible thing ICly has always just pissed off people. You can't influence it, especially considering that death is but a 700 gold away from being fixed.

It's all about the attitudes of the players, and most from when I played on the main server just brushed off all types of death.

[Dalenger]

I personally miss the old fugue. I also miss the grim reaper. I'm also in the boat that the maze is... annoying.

As much as I hated losing tons of xp due to death, I will say it have dying more meaning. Not sure if I'd be in favor of going back... but all said, I liked the old death system better.

[Daedin]

On my second week playing Arelith, I died to a random trap set in Cordor's temple district. I respawned, ran to the Nomad, and angrily told a guard what literaly just happened.

I received half a dozen tells from different people, some more polite than others, saying how I could not do that.


That stuck with me and, despite the new rules, I still do it old school.

[Irongron]

The question here seems to be 'Is it okay if others remember the fugue?'

As individuals we're still able to RP it as forgotten, should we wish to. Even for myself, despite making this change I never personally talk about it afterwards.

But, if it an issue when others do it, what is it that particularly is grating?

Also, is remembering who killed you also an issue for some players still, not so much whether one remembers the fugue, or whether one remembers what led up to it? Some of the comments above implies it is remembering the death, not the fugue that is the problem.

These seem like two very different questions. One related to PvP, and the other to endlessly having to listen to people's fugue stories.

I'm definitely open to discussing this issue, I'd just like to figure out the exact reasoning behind it.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I don't think you should remember the Fugue Plane.

I think it's a little more flexible about leading up to your moment of death. Was it in a war? Then you probably remember the war. Was it an epic confrontation with your archnemesis? You probably remember. Was it being randomly shanked in a back alley? You don't have a lot of details then.

[Bashagain]

Forgetting events in Fugue plane is for a reason. Scenario: Joe Kebob just died at the hands of a duergar mob. Joe finds his way through the maze and stands before the light. A gnoll ghost floats next to Mr. Kebob. They strike up a conversation and become fast friends, sharing names and addresses. They then move on to the world of living. One day, they meet each other before Stonehold ruins.

Joe Kebob: Hey, you're Harry Pawter the gnoll, aren't you?!
Harry the Gnoll: Oh my gawd! It's you! Joe Kebob, right?!
Joe: Yeah! That's right? We met when we died and we were wandering in Kelemvors Wall, right? What a doozy that was.
Gnoll: Sheesh tell me about it. How are the wife and kids? By the way did you revenge your own death? You told me it was the duergars that did you in right?
Joe: Yeah. By the way, I checked out the Underdark music venue you told me about where you said you lost your bag of gold?
Gnoll: That's great!
Joe: Guess what! I found your bag! Here's half of what you must have lost.

Now multiply the scenario by the number of characters you've talked to in Fugue.

[Liareth]

Personally, I agree -- I would rather not have events in the fugue remembered.

[Irongron]

I think it is a question of one, both, or neither. In brief...

Should there be a set rule that the fugue isn't remembered?
Should there be a set rule that how one died shoudn't be remembered?

I think anything more than a flat yes or no would be hard to enforce, though I do like the role-play suggestions of Seven Sons above.

[Peppermint]

Fugue shouldn't be remembered.

How one died, I'm largely ambivalent about. Previously, it was largely left up to players to decide, and that seemed to work fine.

[Kreydis]

Remembering after death is a no for me. It's just to broken, and unbelievable.

However remembering the steps that you took to die should be remembered in all cases, however it should be a "you can" thing, because a good roleplayer can turn being murdered into a "got away by a string" type of things and make plans to retaliate / go into hiding.

However we must be straightforward and admit most players are not excellent RPers, almost without fail we're fine, but the amount of effort it takes to properly pull off a "got away by my skin" thing, is huge, if you don't want to be seen as an ooc Pufferfish who's just trying to get back at the player.

Also their's the innate problem of people treating death as a temp knockout system. If all parties agree, I guess it's fine, but overall I think it should be known that if you kill someone, you killed them. You didn't knock them out for capture or anything else, they fought to their last breath.

TL:DR do you trust players to make something out of PvP deaths?

[Baron Saturday]

Personally, I would be quite sad if the Fugue went back to being forgotten - because then many people just treat it like an OOC area. This is something I saw all the time before the Fugue change.

A more personal aside: My current char has a fair bit of Fugue-based rp from a PvP death where she then elected to remain dead for several years, wandering the paths and staring at the Wall. I'd hate to lose that!

I suggest that it is up to the players, not the mechanics, to make death meaningful.

[Kreydis]

I suggest that it is up to the players, not the mechanics, to make death meaningful.

I'd suggest that we stop giving a crap if it's meaningful or not. After several years of having tried to treat death seriously and getting laughed at ICly by various groups I've considered it a moot cause. Mechanical or not people aren't going to treat anything seriously if the solution is 1000 gold or a cleric.

[rlor]

Also their's the innate problem of people treating death as a temp knockout system. If all parties agree, I guess it's fine, but overall I think it should be known that if you kill someone, you killed them. You didn't knock them out for capture or anything else, they fought to their last breath.

TL:DR do you trust players to make something out of PvP deaths?

In general agreement with you, remember fugue no, how one died yes by the rules, up to that player.

I actually do support having the ability to mechanically knock someone out. Whether it leaves them there but knocked down or transports them to a different zone than fugue and give the PCs a tool that allows them to finish them off or wake them up. I've wondered if it is not requiring a Hak or just a choice of the devs not to implement.

[Xarge VI]

With the new change in rules I've rped remembering bits and pieces, like being lost in a dark maze and struggling through it to the light but nothing exact. Occasionally it does give good RP remembering someone. I recall one of my character having met another in the maze so when he met her in life he thought of her as his spirit guide.

But the downside of remembering fugue is that it allows silly RP that cheapens death. Which is a big downside imo. Although regardless of the rules I've found that how people RP around death is a good way to determine what plots I want to involve them in.

And just because I'm so bored at work I'll weigh in on the knocking out thing too. I'd like to see something like this done. But with a considerable penalty to attack bonus. As it's always a safer choise to to approach with lethal force.