OOC Dice Bag for IG conflicts

[SkylightSurprise]

Hello,

I've been a NWN player for a couple years, Arelith on and off since 2012. I came to Arelith from a small RP server and was blown away by the amount of imersion allowed by the scripting and coding in the world itself.

Anyways, one thing I've always thought was odd, and would perhaps be incredibly useful would be a dice roll option to roll skill checks for stats and skills. A few different ways this would be useful, as I'm going through the threads and reading instead of doing my job, are for PVP battles/RP situations between players.

I saw one thread about torture, and how to make sure it's okay to do. Well, I'm not going into the morality of torture on the server but being able to roll a CON check when someone *probes with firey red poker*. Rather than having both player just make up reactions and counter-actions to such an event as torture, or robbery, or

I know that in the RP I've been involved in, being able to roll my STR would have made the RP a lot smoother. I am however aware that a lot of action IG can be kept IG without the use of a dice bag, or skill roll however I feel that being able to do so actually promotes stricter RP as the limits of our Characters are finally addressed.

I didn't put a WHOLE lot of thought into this post, mainly because I'm at work and don't want to submit a 10 page proposal that may or may not be read.

I would absotively appreciate any feedback, positive or negative, regarding the implementation of a dice bag IG for OOC and IC RP. <- lots of abbreviations.

[dragoneyeIIVX]

Once existed, and no longer does for pretty solid reasons. The argument goes back and forth among players (and will here), but in 10 years, it has never gone back in.

[Twily]

I agree there's cases a dicebag would be nice, and in an ideal world the dice bag would work.

The biggest problem I can see(and this may have happened in the past) is people using the dice rolls as a way to force a player to do something they don't want to do against their will, or else be breaking mechanics which act like a shadow rule. That wouldn't be fun for everyone involved and having fun is what the point of the game and server is about at the end of the day.

Some players don't mind doing this though. If you play with them regularly, try shooting them a tell to see their play styles. I've come across people who will accept my mage casting basic spells unsupported by mechanics(such as creating an illusion image) and play along(they hit ` and type d20 for a dice roll to determine if they pass the save or not). There's nothing in the rules saying this isn't allowed, but the point is that it's not forced on players. They can choose not to do this if they don't want to.

[SkylightSurprise]

I wouldn't consider adding a dice roll system as allowing some players to force another's character to do something unwanted. As in other threads, actions that require a Player's Character to follow a specific tone of RP or allow one character to do things to another would still be considered appropriate to "tell" the other Player for permission and go from there.

One of the main reasons I feel like a dice roll that showed up in the chat box or over the characters head would be beneficial is that it would allow even more RP. The roll + skill/stat points can definitely make or break a characters initial intention, but it does nothing but add to the realism of life. (meaning a lot of times things don't work out as we imagine they would)

*cleaves off kobold kings head*

(player loots corpse to get the head)
Now, one side could say that the trivial things like this aren't important and DO NOT add to the RP of the situation, the other side might say that it's the RP between the looting and game mechanics that make it fun.

*cleaves off kobold kings head* [Roll STR 4]

(player RP's having the axe or blade stuck in the neck having to wiggle it free)
Now, the mechanical roll isn't necessary to RP the situation, but it promotes a more full, and visual aspect to something as simple as looting a dead NPC.

My point

I have issues with the RP on this server at times. It's no ones fault per say, just sort of my own opinion which weighs on no one but myself. There are players that hack n' slash through everything because they may have done it all on another character, and most probably have. Then there are those Players that have been here a while that prefer to RP with other Players that they know either from time IG or OOC. Being compelled to RP the specific characters skills/stats at any given time would do nothing but build the personality and mold the character for its future, as well as give someone who's been playing Arelith for 10 years and a newbie the same chance at doing an IG action whether it's sever a head, spot someone *hiding in the shadows* or even toss a piece of paper in the waste from 5 feet away. Just my hot air

[The Rambling Midget]

Being compelled to RP the specific characters skills/stats at any given time would do nothing but build the personality and mold the character for its future

We aren't compelled, but we are encouraged. Arelith's RPR system encourages players to RP well, and add depth to the game world, and part of that is RPing what's on the character sheet. That means RPing faults and weaknesses, as well as strengths.

[SkylightSurprise]

I suppose what I meant by that is the result of a roll would 'encourage' the player to RP the characters reaction, rather than just whatever feels better in the player's eyes. The game mechanics and endless scripting (which I whole heartidly appreciate and admire) allow RP with the world. But I feel more issues come from RP with other players. Having this IG 'limit setter' for our characters could, for lack of a better word, add fairness to most if not all PC interactions with other PC's. *Edited to add: PC interactions regarding Role Playing scenarios, not just PVP battles-which too could benefit from such an addition

[DM Watchtower]

While I'm totally fine with an open discussion about the nature of this issue, I do want to firmly establish that OOC dice bags aren't going to ever happen. So before this continues, please know that this position isn't going to change.

I'm happy for any discussion to continue about what we can do as players in spite of that, just understand that arguing for this suggestion to be implemented is futile.

[Twily]

I have issues with the RP on this server at times. It's no ones fault per say, just sort of my own opinion which weighs on no one but myself. There are players that hack n' slash through everything because they may have done it all on another character, and most probably have. Then there are those Players that have been here a while that prefer to RP with other Players that they know either from time IG or OOC. Being compelled to RP the specific characters skills/stats at any given time would do nothing but build the personality and mold the character for its future, as well as give someone who's been playing Arelith for 10 years and a newbie the same chance at doing an IG action whether it's sever a head, spot someone *hiding in the shadows* or even toss a piece of paper in the waste from 5 feet away. Just my hot air

I actually do agree with this for the most part. I do think my post remains valid though. While some players wouldn't misuse/abuse it others might. This server is larger than a small one where monitoring everything is effortless, just look at reporting. DMs rely on players to report problems here, and then they do the work with what tools they have after being told where the problems lie.(although DMs probably do simply watch for things as well, but players still play a key role) There's nothing wrong with this, but it does limit some things because not everyone will use everything properly and when someone misuses it a DM may not be there to protect the players enjoyment in the game at the time it occurs.

As an example : Player 1 rolls a grapple roll, and tells player 2 to roll a reflex(or whatever may apply at the time). If player 1 succeeds, player 2 will feel forced to let player 1 drag him off, or else be breaking mechanics that people were witness to. It's like god emoting, but the decision being left to dice rather than a players roleplaying. I only say this, because I saw this exact thing happen on another server that does have a dice bag tool on it. In my opinion, dicebag tools are best for a small server where a DM decides when people make a roll, rather than players telling players to.

[Ecstatic]

And Arelith's DMs can already make those rolls just fine.

[The Rambling Midget]

One of the DMs had everyone involved in the Crown of Horns event do a Will check, during a critical event, and the general response was confusion. It was pretty funny. "What does this number mean? What's happening?"

I like emotes more than numbers. And if someone wants to RP infallibility, then okay. That person is free to be boring.

[Katze]

One of the DMs had everyone involved in the Crown of Horns event do a Will check, during a critical event, and the general response was confusion. It was pretty funny. "What does this number mean? What's happening?"

I like emotes more than numbers. And if someone wants to RP infallibility, then okay. That person is free to be boring.

you are unable to rp infallibility, my friend. if you do, then you will show more about yourself than you will want to.

[ArcanaFTW]

I only use dice rolls to show the outcome on completely chancey RP on my side, such as performing an experiment to modify a character features. 1 being epic failure 20 being amazing. You can roll in the console or with real dice.

[Aromatic Treebark]

I imagine a dice bag that is just numbers, for game or RP uses only, nothing to do with choices or actions. No skill or ability checks involved.

Just a little thing that states how many dice you want & how many sides there are to the die\dice.

Like the dice mat in the Crow's Nest - just numbers, for games or something.

[Dr_Hazard89]

I like the idea of dicebags too, but after asking if we could have some the other day, and reading peoples reasons for why we can't, I'm pretty convinced Arelith would be better off without dicebags. But now that I know how to roll using the console, I'm pretty happy with that! (12 years I've had this game, and still such a noob.)

[DM_Ironfist]

While I'm totally fine with an open discussion about the nature of this issue, I do want to firmly establish that OOC dice bags aren't going to ever happen. So before this continues, please know that this position isn't going to change.

I'm happy for any discussion to continue about what we can do as players in spite of that, just understand that arguing for this suggestion to be implemented is futile.

Roleplay > Rollplay.

[Preacher]

The thing is... if you want to rp punching the person in the face... but your an epic lvl player and have no clue if they are a lvl 1 with really good rp ability and is trying to bluff.... instead of actually attacking..... you have the option of using the dice bag and do a STR check. it rolls for you, they see. oh... look. he has a +28 to hit.... and rolled a 2. Ok, now he can rp getting hit despite the pathedic swing that was made.... Also same situation but mr epic with +28 rolls a 1. little guy can laugh and rp correctly that despite the strong swing he is able to dodge mr epic but can easily see this guy can take him out! so he can now rp correctly.

often when my lvl 26 rp's slapping someone. they will send me a tell with the question, "what is your str" this makes things simpler.

[Marsi]

they will send me a tell with the question, "what is your str" this makes things simpler.

Not to throw you under the bus Preacher, but I hate hate hate it when players do this.

It's happened to me so many times. A player will innocently ask me in a [tell:] what my characters ability/skill rank is. Not wanting to be impolite, I tell them, and then they proceed to perform a pernicious god-emote or pontificate how they think xyz should be role-played (or usually, why they think their character should have won a certain dispute). Obviously I ignore those inquiries now unless in familiar company.

My favorite example of this has to be when a mid-level chracter tried to throw my 30th level weapon-master in a well after sending an ambiguous question about my character's strength score.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

How high your wisdom is on your character sheet will not convince me your character is wise if you proceed to walk around Myon insulting elves left, right and centre.

I'm of the personal opinion that people who want to use OOC dice bags for IG conflict are incapable of collaborative and strong roleplay.

Sounds harsh.

[Preacher]

in my experience, I've not received any god emotes from it. it is reactionary. They want to react to something that happened and my stat will help them rp it appropriately. they have not god emoted. example I gave was a slap. I emoted that I swing my hand to slap them. They asked what my str was. I told them. they rp'ed based on the fact that the str was like 36 or something like that.

anytime someone god-emotes you have two choices. just roll with it, or ignore it.
disputing or arguing with them typically does nothing no matter if you rolled with it or ignored it.

and seven, wisdom and intelligence and charisma are the hardest/most horribly rp'ed stats because they are conceptual and while your character may have super high of one of them, the player behind it may simply not know how to rp them since they themselves do not have 30+ int, wis or cha. Physical stats are much simpler to rp. as they are simple and straight forward in most cases have so many examples in fiction, rp, comics and other resources.

situations can at times be definitive. People typically do not. people have stereotypes. which are there because they are generally true but not always.

The long and short. or TDLR is:
1. god emoting is always bad, dice bag or no dice bag.
2. people who rp properly can use a dice bag to enhance their rp.
3. have fun, don't be a jerk no matter what happens.

[Preacher]

Not to throw you under the bus Preacher, but I hate hate hate it when players do this.

It's happened to me so many times. A player will innocently ask me in a [tell:] what my characters ability/skill rank is. Not wanting to be impolite, I tell them, and then they proceed to perform a pernicious god-emote or pontificate how they think xyz should be role-played (or usually, why they think their character should have won a certain dispute). Obviously I ignore those inquiries now unless in familiar company.

My favorite example of this has to be when a mid-level chracter tried to throw my 30th level weapon-master in a well after sending an ambiguous question about my character's strength score.

Thank you for your honest input and example. because you are right this does happen! When it does you have the same two choices I pointed out above. 1. roll with it. or 2. ignore it.

I hope that people this happens to will still be polite and be nice but if someone is god emoting. tell them you feel it was such and move forward with ether point 1 or 2 while trying to be nice ooc. IC be your character! jerk or angel! but ooc it is required per our rules to "Be nice."

[Artos13]

Very civil discussion about an often inflammatory topic, good show.

Dice bags in the past were a problem, as stated above. People had a tendency to use a maxed stat to bully others, whether its a high STR fighter pushing people into wells, or a high CHA sorc who thinks that means he is Rasputin and can manipulate everyone around them. It even spawned the term: "That guy is being a dicebag" (instead of douchebag, get it?) for people who god-emote-bullied others.

They tend to work better on smaller servers where there is a good chance a DM is watching everything, or you know everyone else playing. On Arelith, we have high-volume with lots of players of various backgrounds, and it doesn't work as well here.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I've been sad for a while now that there aren't dice bags on this server. I do have to say that having read some of the reasons in this thread, I can acknowledge that this is not the best environment to incorporate them.

I am also aware of the console dice roller, and I enjoy that suggestion for collaborative RP. The question is, what if it is two players are of an open, collaborative mindset, but these two players don't know each other? They agree to roll something, and one of them rolls a 17, and one rolls an 18.

Here's the thing. Rolling in the console is not publicly visible. So one of two things happens. You implicitly accept that the person is providing you with the truth about their rolls, or things grind to an unpleasant halt OOC as you begin to attempt to cope with your distrust.

This is not to say something like this will happen every time. But when you are consenting to opposed rolling for an appropriate situation (arm wrestling for gold, for example), having a public display removes the uneasy boundary of having to take an internet stranger's word for it.

There isn't an actual table in front of us where we can all see the die cast, and unlike a table-top game at home with your friends, you cannot guarantee you know everyone at the table, and so cannot ever have that sense of security that you KNOW your peers. Without this, you are less likely to engage in collaborative conflict RP and more likely to rely on the PvP engine- which is fine, but can be somewhat depriving of the interactive human element if you'd prefer to RP it.

Obviously once you get to know the other players it becomes less of an issue, but it makes me sad that the public results aren't there for "ice-breaking."

Has anyone found an effective way to cope with the above? When I first started here I was almost afraid to send other people tells for OOC discussion because of the enforced IC rule (which I love, by the way, but not knowing the player pool I was joining made me nervous about asking questions/talking with players. Such fears have proven entirely unfounded to date. )

[LittleWeasel]

Actually...
Why needing a dice role? Use *looks*

There it tells you if the char you look at is extra ordinarily strong, intimidating, astute, etc.

Use that info to guide your reaction to how to respond.

[Preacher]

dicebags are best used in rp fights where you don't want to actually kill the other due to not having a subdual system.

The solution is find an arena area yes. but that means if you want to fight but hate pvp and arn't near an arena you don't really have a solution.

Ah well. dice bag or no dice bag, its fun here ether way. good info for a possible suggestion in the suggestion box!

[KregorRanger]

Actually...
Why needing a dice role? Use *looks*

There it tells you if the char you look at is extra ordinarily strong, intimidating, astute, etc.

Use that info to guide your reaction to how to respond.

If that actually worked more than half the time, even with a high ranked Spot PC.

I'd be far more in favor of ditching the pass/fail component of *looks*, and instead make the perception exclusively more or less accurate based on the roll. A subject shouldn't get a save against someone looking at them. Disguise/Perform vs. Spot, yes; divination focus vs. auras, yes; just getting an idea of how strong/frail/good looking/etc. a person is, no. Unless, they are disguised and attempting to conceal those attributes.

Give me the echoes for attributes every time I look at someone, and I'll play it fair.