Appraise skill changes

[LichBait]

This comes to mind for cooking currently...

[P Three]

And then we all die of dysentery

[Sab1]

This comes to mind for cooking currently...

This post made my day

[Shadofury]

Reducing the absurd amount of meat required for the higher tier healing kits would help a lot. Is it still big meat 7x for +10?

Yep, still is. The materials scale up exponentially even as the benefits do not.

There are a lot of recipes where the issue isn't the final product, but rather the materials / crafting points that go into it. The portal lens recipe is another big example. As is the availability of animal sinew for carpentry, even though you'd think it'd be an easy material to obtain.

The devs should review most of the recipes already in existence, otherwise they'll never be worthwhile to craft, no matter how much the vendors are tinkered with.

and while its being reviewed, big bears equal big meat medium bears equal small meat

[Mustard]

I've been playing a lowbie all day, and so far I'm making a load more coin.

[gilescorey]

big bears equal big meat

same

[viper92225]

I don't really think sinking 20 ranks in appraise is necessarily a huge sacrifice to make, especially with the way skilldumping works. You take 20 ranks appraise at level 30 for merching, level down, reassign points as needed.

It is so nice that the system in place benefits those people that saved up and dumped points late instead of investing points from the start for better RP [/end sarcasm]. There are people that started investing in appraise at creation that have had the rug pulled out from under them with this. No one is defending the validity of appraise runs or asking for them back, but making it so that appraise no longer affects buying anything has just cut an entire RP path off at the knees. Any given person here may not like it, but the fact remains that people have made characters within the existing system, established them and put a great deal of work into them only to have their RP ripped away. These people can adapt and I hope no one quits over this, but it does not change that a better solution could have been found without cutting the people following the rules down.

The common items that appraise based characters were selling in shops (healing kits, portal lenses, raise dead scrolls, temp essences) should be returned to a status of having appraise discount applied to the purchase and not be sell-able to NPC's to prevent the return of any appraise run possibility.

I don't currently have any appraise based characters, but I know people that have invested heavily from creation and have never done a single appraise run. I am honestly a bit sickened at how causally this change has thrown them aside. Appraise runs had to go, but telling an entire branch of RP that they need to figure out a new way was wrong.

[gilescorey]

I still don't see how dumping raise scrolls, temporary essences and lenses into a shop to print vast amounts of gold makes for any sort of meaningful RP.

[viper92225]

I still don't see how dumping raise scrolls, temporary essences and lenses into a shop to print vast amounts of gold makes for any sort of meaningful RP.

That is because you have reduced it to the action. "I don't see how killing some gnolls and selling the iron swords for vast amounts of gold makes for any sort of meaningful RP"

I am not saying that existing merchant RP that included selling those items is better then any other type of RP, but taking any branch of RP away without good cause is troubling. How would a player with a battle cleric feel if the devs decided that certain multi-classed clerics were a problem and the solution was to make any cleric with non cleric levels unable to cast spells on themselves?

[iria_huntress]

Not to mention how VASTLY mistaken you are about the VAST quantities of gold. "Yay! I sold 99 portal lenses for 4950 gold, AFTER investing 173,250! Now I can TRULY afford my VAST tracks of land". I think there is a VAST misconception about what a VAST amount of gold is. #betallofyouboughtfromthoseshops

That math is based on the assumption that you could afford 99 portal lenses, and were paying 10% tax on each sale. If you are only paying 5%, that is still only 9900 in gold. The most expensive I saw it for in a shop was 2100. Assuming they got the best rate, that puts you at 19,800 in gold. Take into account the time it takes to sell that many lenses. It really is a service.

The point is that if you spent the same amount of time killing kobolds in the iron mines that you spent stocking a shop with portal lenses you would come out ahead on gold from the kobolds. And it wouldn't require you to have 200,000 in your account to start with.

[Kuma]

ｖ ａ ｓ ｔ

[condotierri]

Not to mention how VASTLY mistaken you are about the VAST quantities of gold. "Yay! I sold 99 portal lenses for 4950 gold, AFTER investing 173,250! Now I can TRULY afford my VAST tracks of land". I think there is a VAST misconception about what a VAST amount of gold is. #betallofyouboughtfromthoseshops

That math is based on the assumption that you could afford 99 portal lenses, and were paying 10% tax on each sale. If you are only paying 5%, that is still only 9900 in gold. The most expensive I saw it for in a shop was 2100. Assuming they got the best rate, that puts you at 19,800 in gold. Take into account the time it takes to sell that many lenses. It really is a service.

That's one example, but it's a bad one. You could buy healing kits off the Cordor NPC and sell them at the Wharftown NPC for big profits (maybe 2x?) and just keep doing it. It adds nothing to the game, and neither did the PC shops that bought cheaply from NPCs and sold them in their shops.

The point is that if you spent the same amount of time killing kobolds in the iron mines that you spent stocking a shop with portal lenses you would come out ahead on gold from the kobolds. And it wouldn't require you to have 200,000 in your account to start with.

It's not the same thing, because while you are out killing kobolds, you can run into other PCs. Help them, guide them, make friends...you know RP. If it forces you to now do this, then it's a successful change.

[viper92225]

Not to mention how VASTLY mistaken you are about the VAST quantities of gold. "Yay! I sold 99 portal lenses for 4950 gold, AFTER investing 173,250! Now I can TRULY afford my VAST tracks of land". I think there is a VAST misconception about what a VAST amount of gold is. #betallofyouboughtfromthoseshops

That math is based on the assumption that you could afford 99 portal lenses, and were paying 10% tax on each sale. If you are only paying 5%, that is still only 9900 in gold. The most expensive I saw it for in a shop was 2100. Assuming they got the best rate, that puts you at 19,800 in gold. Take into account the time it takes to sell that many lenses. It really is a service.

That's one example, but it's a bad one. You could buy healing kits off the Cordor NPC and sell them at the Wharftown NPC for big profits (maybe 2x?) and just keep doing it. It adds nothing to the game, and neither did the PC shops that bought cheaply from NPCs and sold them in their shops.

You are combining two separate things and discounting both because you don't like them. Buying an item from one NPC and selling to do another is something that I would agree adds nothing to the game (besides riskless gold), but just because someone COULD buy items from an NPC and put them in their PC shop without talking to anyone else does not mean that no RP was generated from it or that it added nothing to the game.

[Honeybunny]

That's one example, but it's a bad one. You could buy healing kits off the Cordor NPC and sell them at the Wharftown NPC for big profits (maybe 2x?) and just keep doing it. It adds nothing to the game, and neither did the PC shops that bought cheaply from NPCs and sold them in their shops.

Why go to Wharftown? Haulfest (173gp buy price) to the Peddler (one map away) for 27xgp ea. 100gp profit per.

*I think 273gp but I'm not positive now

[viper92225]

Why go to Wharftown? Haulfest (173gp buy price) to the Peddler (one map away) for 273gp ea. 100gp profit per.

Again, no one is arguing for a return to appraise runs in this thread. Every single suggestion about allowing appraise to grant a discount has been combined with the suggestion that NPCs don't buy the items the discount applies to.

[Dreadwolf]

Hrm.... I don't think this is an entirely good change. Single handily destroying pretty much any form of fun trader/merchant enterprising role play completely unless you want to make weapons and armor all day long which take forever to finish. I can think of a few trader characters who cannot go out and dungeon because that is what they are clearly made to do, be merchants.

One thing I remember being a big issue was dungeon grinding. If I would like to make gold I now would have to travel out and kill monsters to make any form of a profit instead of selling wears that I have skills in obtaining cheaper and selling cheaper than the NPCs (appraise). This encourages bad RP in my opinion, I don't want to make gold this way and we all need gold, no getting around it. This reminds me of WoW, not a bad thing in that game but NWN is not a game like WoW, we want RP and not just dungeon crawls and grinds CONSTANTLY.

If you wish to get lenses and temp essences cheap then you are just about out of luck. Essences I feel are something I can manage but if I suddenly in RL have to run because of a family emergency then I am screwed because my lowbie could not afford a lens. I would have to log then and there and then probably get slaughtered as soon as I hop back in, fun. So I am happy they are considering changing the price on them, that could change my opinion.

As a final conclusion, I think if they go ahead with the way it is then it could impair corporation/merchant RP and force more grinds. Perhaps this could still happen if there were a change to the crafting system? Maybe even link appraise to it somehow? Ex. No one likes to make lenses because it is such a pain to get a ruby, emerald, and a diamond. This change to appraise I feel personally is a unneeded change I and I don't even play appraise characters.

[Diilicious]

[Freyason]

Also: More changes coming.

[Sab1]

Please lets save the hate and anger till all the changes are in. Then we can pounce on Septire.

[Shadofury]

OK if your going to buy kits from haulfest and sell them to make a profit to a npc why play a persistant world at all, as your just after gold

if your going to buy kits from haulfest and try to sell them on your own for a profit to other players, at least your providing RP, but please come sell them when Bok is around, because since he makes all his kits and most other things he sells, he will wipe the floor with you emptying his pack twice by the time you can sell your petty npc bought goods since his overhead is way lower and prices are cheaper than even haulfest

Let the merchant death match begin

[Septire]

I don't agree with the notion that RP has been destroyed with this change, nor do I agree with the notion that anyone who has appraise now has been invalidated and made useless. I think I covered everything I wanted to say in my initial post.

I see a lot of evocative language being thrown around. Appraise hasn't been removed. It's been overhauled. There is still a benefit to having appraise. Those players with appraise still have the benefits conferred by having ranks in appraise in the new system. There is functional use to taking appraise. Having appraise can benefit other players, and you can still provide a service to others through leveraging ranks in appraise. Your definition of RPing being cut at the knees or somehow destroyed seems to dismiss the context: That appraise changed functionally. In terms of its old form, it's gone, yes. It's been replaced with something else. Those players are not stuck with a completely useless skill. If you want to deem it a useless skill, or a relatively useless skill compared to how it was before, that's your prerogative. I already said I'd be assessing whether appraise needs a buff in my initial post.

I keep seeing posts like "I don't have any appraise, and I don't do appraise, never have, but I know a guy who..." Could we please stop with the argument-by-proxy/minority-representation thing? I think if these players need representation they are free to post on the forums themselves or to provide feedback directly to the DM/Code Contributor/Admin team through PM if they don't want to do it in a public setting. I'm not saying you don't have an argument to make, but I start to wonder when you don't really have anything at stake and position yourself on behalf of others who don't seem to speak up at all. It feels like an argument for the sake of argument. Where are these diehard appraise-players that are so outraged by it, and why haven't they posted on the forums if they are in strong disagreement with the changes? Would that not be the best manner to go about providing feedback?

There also seems to be some entanglement between the mechanical drawbacks of the change, and the RP drawbacks of the change. For players who were essentially getting passive income for nothing, yes, it's going to suck. It's a necessary change to prevent run-away gold inflation. The can't-sell-anything-bought-from-a-shop thing isn't really a better implementation: NPCs are just suppose to be omniscient and know which wares were purchased from another NPC, and which were crafted by players or looted from corpses? They should be able to distinguish between a +1 heal kit that you looted, and a +1 heal kit that you bought from Haulfest? How can the NPC make this distinction, and more importantly, why would this NPC care to if all he's interested in is purchasing something from the PC? All of this to expressly allow players to keep on keeping on with the passive gold income through stocking shops with portal lenses, kits, temp essences and the like?

... And the change hasn't even been live more than a couple of days and it's being condemned as being "useless", when we already said "more to come".

just because someone COULD buy items from an NPC and put them in their PC shop without talking to anyone else does not mean that no RP was generated from it or that it added nothing to the game.

So... if you're not talking to anyone else... what sort of RP are you talking about? I mean, I play as a player too, I see what happens IG. What RP is generated from stocking up a shop with NPC wares?
"Hey I need more kits and you're not selling any."
"Oh, alright, let me just buy some more kits and put them in my shop. There you are sir. Off adventuring?"

This RP could really be generated through any other vector or prompt.
"I am in need of cheap healing supplies."
"Have you tried Haulfest?"
"Yes, but I was hoping for something cheaper."
"Well if you're going out adventuring, I know a cleric who..."

Really, it's the same thing in that regard. Or do you mean connecting with potential suppliers?
"I need someone to help me keep this shop stocked"
"Yeah I can help with that."
"Ok sure, just go buy from this merchant and then offload everything you bought here."
"No problem.... so, uh... what else is new?"

The RP avenues for appraise-with-NPCs dries up pretty quick. But even that is with talking and interaction between parties, which isn't necessary to generate RP for others?
"Hey this guy is stocking... a whole bunch of portal lenses."
"Ah great, and he has heal kits too. How convenient!"
"Yeah, I'll just stock up..."
"Any idea who this guy is? I've never seen him around."
"[Tell] Does he just log in to stock his shop and do the quarter/shop/guildhall hokey pokey?"
"[Tell] No idea. I thought I saw him online earlier, but maybe he was on an alt. Whatever, he has kits that's all that really matters."

"Have you tried Joe's shop in the Web? He sells kits."
"Not yet. I'll see if he has any stocked."
"Nope, no kits here. I'll send a runner."
Joe Arrives
"Hey I need more kits and you're not selling any."
"Oh, alright, let me just buy some more kits and put them in my shop. There you are sir. Off adventuring?"

And even these sort of an exchanges are a stretch. Is this the sort of RP you're suggesting is being irrevocably destroyed by an appraise change? Or is there some deeper and gratifying RP I've been missing the whole time I've been playing?

As for what sort of appraise RP you can do under the new system, this is easy: The service you can offer returning parties from adventuring is in selling their loot for them and cutting some gold off the top for yourself. Or better yet, collecting for an adventuring group. Or having crafters bring their crafted goods to you for sale at an NPC vendor. There's a few options right there. Supply chain stuff. You know, this RP actually used to exist back in the day before appraise really took off or was well known. It was hard work setting up crafting contacts and setting up supply chains but that generated lots of RP. Infinite stock found in appraise-bought lenses, kits and temp essences doesn't really throw crafters a bone, and it's way more profitable to go about things that way. Why bother with crafted wares then when much more lucrative options exist?

[Cerk Evermoore]

I think it is really boiling down to people who were literally printing gold and using it for things like always having the best gear and enchants and the best of anything gold can buy, and that play style is now unsustainable and they are likely upset they can't get fully enchanted gear for their level 12 alt anymore.

[Nekonecro]

I'm just gonna miss my 1750g lenses

[Obsidian]

I have read a few posts that flat out state what I am thinking/feeling about this and almost everyone discounting their/our points and views. I will state that when this update went live I was very upset, waited for the announcement so I could try to understand the change, and it truly did not make it better for me. I know more is coming but every bit I'm reading talks about going dungeon crawling for loot to sell. Personally my toons merchanting rp does not happen by grinding and selling the spoils. It comes from buying and selling.

Yes, I was one of those who stocked lenses, kits (which I instantly stopped stocking as soon as a shop was there with player made ones, raise scrolls, and temp essences. But like the other posting here I would make at most on a lens 50 coin, at most on one ten stack of bandages 47. Raise scrolls I believe it was 63 per scroll and essence on the best priced ones, 100 coins per bottle. I never stocked these things for coin. I stocked them so that you could get a reasonably priced item that everyone uses in a starter city, because in Brog you could not get near the price you did in Cordor to buy them. Out of all that in the shop it took up 10 slots, the other ten are spent on crafted items that we tried to personalize in some way.

I hear that people think this creates no rp but I sat by my shops most of the time I was on, other then when pulled to meetings or getting more supplies. I try to speak to each and every person who moves into the Halls. Yelling a greeting. Asking if they look for anything they can't find.

Yes, I can make more crafted items. Yes, I share that shop with others who will help stock. But to say that the skill points I spent are not wasted because I can dungeon crawl and sell loot is not fair to me, in my opinion. That is not what I designed when I made this character. She is not going to sit around and sell other peoples haul. I now have to figure out how to explain why every merchant on the Isle hates her and refuses to deal even though she/I used to rp with them, npc's that they were, not speaking back at all, did she still rp with them. Befriending Furth, taking alcohol to the monastery as a 'gift'..

I did not post before because I was furious and did not want to rant. I worked all day today and got home to see 5 pages, and have slowly read through them all. It helped to see I'm not the only one with the same points to make. Never have I used that skill to make money. I do that with wands, it goes into a faction account, that account has also given money to new dwarf players to get citizenship so they can access the mines, bought them housing and asked for nothing in return. I have never once appraise ran from npc to npc.

Personally this has messed with the very basic idea of what I set out to create. Yes I have other things going on so I doubt the toon will disappear, but it sucks, to be blunt. I would never have spent those skill points in appraise. I would rather have them in the craft armor/craft weapon (which was done after I made her as well) to help with crafting for a shop. Personally the next week or two for me will be spent deciding if I am throwing her whole concept out the window and deleveling to 2 and starting all over or what exactly. I really hope some of these updates coming will not all be about selling loot from kills and that I find a bit of motivation again for the merchant I tried to create.

[Septire]

A couple of notes:

Prices are standardized now, so Brog players should have similar expenses to Cordor, Wharftown, or UD players in terms of healing kits and other items sold in NPC shops. Identify has been dropped to 50 gold to help out new players.

Characters with appraise specifically with buy low sell high in mind will be affected. No way of really getting around that with the change. Either the price reduction from appraise is negligible enough to dissuade players from stocking NPC wares in the shop, making appraise 'worthless', or appraise is worth taking for the price reduction on NPC wares, which prompts players stock their shops with NPC wares either for revenue or to make the low levels easier for new players. It's difficult to have a sweet spot where appraise is definitely worth taking, but dumping kits in a shop for passive, free income isn't really an option.

If there's a problem with the low levels, I'd prefer to isolate what that problem is, rather than bring in big-brother to fix new players' problems through generosity and philanthropy. If you're really interested in helping others regardless, kits are already at 35 gold each. Mid or epic level characters can easily stock up on them and toss a few to low level players. Appraise does not preclude this option, it still exists, it just cannot be done at no expense to the character. Not only that, but all characters have, what, 50 daily crafting points? Put that fresh blood to work making you some iron weapons that you can then sell and turn to buying kits for them. Would such an arrangement not be suitable, and be somewhat believable?

Being able to indefinitely provide a renewable service simply by owning a shop and 15-20 ranks in appraise, at virtually no expense, is just silly. NPCs would quickly cut out the middle-man and just sell their kits for whatever you're selling them for in your shop to remain competitive. At this point, you'd either keep stocking your shop at 0 net profit (buy and sell values are the same) and the cost of time and shop upkeep, or you'd stop doing it altogether because the convenience a few rooms down would no longer be necessary.

The change removes buy low sell high (sell for more than you paid for it), in exchange for fixed buy variable sell for NPCs. If you want to try to ply the Buy low Sell high thing, I suggest investing some time experimenting with market dynamics and applying real trading practices with your fellow players. If you really do not want to deal with selling stuff to NPCs at all, you can absolutely go the Craft Weapon + Craft Armor route for creating goods for others to use, but I feel like Appraise, Craft Weapon, and Craft armor all together would be ideal on such a character, they do complement each other.

But the fullest effect won't really be seen until crafting gets a revamp to make crafting more economical, or until adventuring yields lots of items that can be appraised to merchants.