Okay, time to rediscuss this....

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I'm only going to address the OP's sentiment for this.

You asked how this could be considered 'fun' or 'encouraging realism in death.'

We'll start with the second one. Before the respawn timer was extended for PvP deaths, there was nothing stopping someone from respawning and going right back to the same place they were before. Even if they follow the 24 hour pvp rule after a death, it is very awkward and immersion breaking to have a conflict that ends in death, then have that person walking around sullenly next to your character a short while later.

20 minutes gives the character who didn't die time to complete whatever objective without further interference from a character who arguably should not be able to interfere further without another PC raising them and their waiving the 24 hour rule. It's not that PvP should be the first answer, but character death should, if it happens, be the final answer for that particular scene's interaction.


Now, let's take a step back to the other qualifier- fun.

If your character has to kill someone (presuming the vast majority are not griefing trolls) it isn't going to be fun or immersive for you to watch them wander around your area five minutes later while you're wrapping up.

And if you have to respawn, you shouldn't be up and around as fast as if you were revived and tended to by a priest. Realism is not so much the rule of the day in this regard as a sense of consequence to conflict.

If twenty minutes (~ 3.3 IG hours) is too long of a wait for your character to go without influencing the world, perhaps your character should take larger strides to avoid potentially lethal conflict - and that mentality towards death is at least a little bit more realistic than "oh well, just hit this respawn button right here and go right back to what I was doing before while everyone is still around!"



Essentially, 20 minutes is the "sacrifice" one risks making in the event their character loses a PvP conflict.

If you think this is bad, I'd like to remind you that the game this is based on follows a policy of permanent death UNLESS someone raises you, and that comes with a guaranteed loss of levels unless someone burns 25,000 gold.

If you don't like the tabletop comparison and wish to completely ignore the entire foundation the game is based on, here's a different comparison for you; some of the most populous servers I've seen (not counting Arelith, which is by and far the largest I've ever seen other than two Arena servers at their height) use permanent death, or have followed a policy of losing entire multiple levels.

Which would you rather give up? Your last level's worth of experience, or twenty minutes?

I'll take the twenty minutes, please and thank you.

[Kuma]

If you think this is bad, I'd like to remind you that the game this is based on follows a policy of permanent death UNLESS someone raises you, and that comes with a guaranteed loss of levels unless someone burns 25,000 gold.

i feel like people who remind people of the base pnp stuff by stating all the rules and things as absolute gospel have either never actually played pnp, or have had the worst dms in the world

[One Two Three Five]

If you think this is bad, I'd like to remind you that the game this is based on follows a policy of permanent death UNLESS someone raises you, and that comes with a guaranteed loss of levels unless someone burns 25,000 gold.

i feel like people who remind people of the base pnp stuff by stating all the rules and things as absolute gospel have either never actually played pnp, or have had the worst dms in the world

100%. Also, like, 25k has never been that much money in any game I've played past the Rusty Dagger Shanktown levels.

[Tepes]

Isn't the frustration OP talks about being the victim of killbashtrolls/griefer and not about being sad because one lost a fair duel or entertaining pvp-event? Being punished by these penalties while being a lowbie is something I grow being concerned about.

[Abyssal Wrath]

Do these 20 minutes also bypass while beeing logged out? Then in my opinion this is no problem at all. But forcing people to stay in the death Area for 20 minutes while not even beeing able to switch chars, then that is quite the hassle. If you can switch, i don't See it as a Problem at all. Even though i Do not really understand the reasoning behind it. In my opinion death, especially pvp death should be handled completly by the Player.

[Lorkas]

The 20 minutes pass while you're logged out, but the resurrection sickness doesn't start ticking away until you go through the portal.

The main benefit I can see to people being in the Fugue for 20 minutes is that it allows for anyone left alive to tie off some RP threads before the chance of the recently deceased wandering past awkwardly becomes a reality. That said, the Fugue is awful and unfun--it's definitely a 20 minute time-out when you're there due to PvP.

A potential hard-to-measure benefit that might have been predicted at the time of implementation is that if death sucks a bit more, people might actually RP a bit of fear of death ICly. As mentioned in this thread, I'm not sure we're going to be able to get anyone to RP better through the mechanics alone, though.

Can anyone make a suggestion for a system that would have the benefit of preventing (or limiting) post-mortem awkwardness without the system being unfun? Bonus points if it also encourages better RP around death. I think it's important for this topic to be discussed, which is why it's also important that this thread become productive and not just a collection of complaints and arguments against said complaints.

[One Two Three Five]

the Fugue is awful and unfun--it's definitely a 20 minute time-out when you're there due to PvP.

I really genuinely believe something to solve this specific problem should have been part of the death update.

Also agree with the mechanics don't make people rp better sentiment.

Honestly, first thing: Please, the maze fugue wasn't even cool the first time. Maybe some sort of end-of-the-world tavern with npcs to talk to? Old PCs with stories to tell. Something to DO other than wait out a timer in a blank area that's a pain to run around in. Maybe your time in the fugue can take off of the respawn-penalty timer at double rate? (Please put the respawn penalty back to normal.)

You aren't going to make people take death 'seriously' by using mechanical penalties, period, so moving on from that frame of mind is important. Having the fugue be some sort of post-mortem RP or story hub will make it feel less like you've been put in time out for being killed.

[Trunx]

You aren't going to make people take death 'seriously' by using mechanical penalties, period

That's an obviously untrue statement. If your character was permadeleted and you were banned when you died, people would take death very seriously and almost never risk it. If you were instantly brought back to the location where you died after dying with no penalties, people - the "victim" and the "winner" - wouldn't care about death at all, because it achieves nothing.

[One Two Three Five]

You aren't going to make people take death 'seriously' by using mechanical penalties, period

That's an obviously untrue statement. If your character was permadeleted and you were banned when you died, people would take death very seriously and almost never risk it. If you were instantly brought back to the location where you died after dying with no penalties, people - the "victim" and the "winner" - wouldn't care about death at all, because it achieves nothing.

The server would also last about 48 hours but I think I get what you're trying to say. But back when you lost a huge amount of XP for death, like, in comparison with almost all nwn servers, we still got threads about how no one takes death seriously.

When the stat penalties were first put in, we still got threads about how no one takes death seriously.

If death stays as is, I promise you, bet you, 'you can find this thread and quote me if it doesn't happen,' promise you: In six months to a year we WILL get threads about how people aren't taking death seriously enough.

I used to play on a server where when you died you:
Lost all the gold you carried, on a server without banks.
Lost potentially 1/3 to 1/2 of your levels, depending on how level you were.
Lost the weapon/shield you had equipped at the time.
Could lose a certain percentage of your items, chosen at random.
Could have your ENTIRE inventory stolen off your corpse between death and respawn/raise.

And do you know what happened every couple of months? You guessed it. Threads about death not being taken seriously enough. There's no argument compelling enough to me, than that, that mechanical penalties and player inconvenience will make people take death "seriously enough" for some people. It doesn't matter what you do.

[All The Sinners Saints]

If anything I would want the death penalties to be far more severe and crippling. Your character has just died, and only through the use of magic, and the intercession of a god or goddess, or another act of divine sanction/miracle (however re spawning is represented) has their soul found their way back into your characters corpse. There should be considerable psychological, and physical trauma involved in an experience like that. Ideally it would be role played, but as it rarely is I find things like harsh death penalties a good way to enforce some kind of consequences. Even if it results in a player logging off to recover, it is still better for immersion then them just getting straight back into the mix.

I also think that with trivial death penalties any acts of heroism/villainy become equally trivial. Because nothing of meaning is risked in standing up against evil, or good, the accomplishments are equally hollow and meaningless. Death meaning something increases the quality of rp across the board. It finds a way to seep its way into it.

I will get lambasted for both these opinions I am sure, but I am posting them regardless.

[Trunx]

You aren't going to make people take death 'seriously' by using mechanical penalties, period

That's an obviously untrue statement. If your character was permadeleted and you were banned when you died, people would take death very seriously and almost never risk it. If you were instantly brought back to the location where you died after dying with no penalties, people - the "victim" and the "winner" - wouldn't care about death at all, because it achieves nothing.

The server would also last about 48 hours but I think I get what you're trying to say. But back when you lost a huge amount of XP for death, like, in comparison with almost all nwn servers, we still got threads about how no one takes death seriously.

When the stat penalties were first put in, we still got threads about how no one takes death seriously.

If death stays as is, I promise you, bet you, 'you can find this thread and quote me if it doesn't happen,' promise you: In six months to a year we WILL get threads about how people aren't taking death seriously enough.

I used to play on a server where when you died you:
Lost all the gold you carried, on a server without banks.
Lost potentially 1/3 to 1/2 of your levels, depending on how level you were.
Lost the weapon/shield you had equipped at the time.
Could lose a certain percentage of your items, chosen at random.
Could have your ENTIRE inventory stolen off your corpse between death and respawn/raise.

And do you know what happened every couple of months? You guessed it. Threads about death not being taken seriously enough. There's no argument compelling enough to me, than that, that mechanical penalties and player inconvenience will make people take death "seriously enough" for some people. It doesn't matter what you do.

What do you think those threads are supposed to prove, though? There will always be people who think death isn't being taken seriously enough, until the harshest possible penalties are in place. But what of it? That doesn't tell us anything about whether mechanical penalties make people take death more seriously or not. It's a sliding scale, like most things in life.

However, if you accept the premise that people wouldn't take death seriously if death meant the character would jump right back up at full HP and suffer no penalties, and people would take death seriously if it resulted in character deletion and permaban, then mechanics unquestionably and logically have an effect on how seriously people treat death and dying. Adding a 1 XP penalty to the former scenario wouldn't make death more serious, and making the permaban only 2 years long wouldn't make people take death less seriously in the latter scenario, so it's not black and white there either, it's a sliding scale. If someone were to claim that somewhere along that scale mechanics suddenly magically stop entirely mattering in how people treat death, I'd say the burden of proof is on them.

[DarkDreamer]

im not gonna lambaste anyones opinion as everyone has a right to them....but I will remind on one thing....this is a ROLEPLAY server, not a PVP server. Yes actions have consequences, but why is there less consequence when I am killed by a monster vs a player? Your all keen to justify PvP but no one even considers that it should be the same all around, so should you get the same punishment every time your lowbie gets killed by monsters? I'm gonna guess theres gonna be a long speech as to why not. Since most Newbie players would spend well over 2 hrs in the fugue alone. I still dont see how we justify one death is far more important then the other.

Solutions:

The honest solution.....stop trying to force players to RP something, the reality is if they really dont want to, NO punishment is EVER gonna force that. Doing this only hurts the few.

[Durvayas]

I have less issue with the 20 minute timer than I do the scaling debuff timer.

The 20 minute timer is a pain for anyone with limited time to play due to RL. There is no arguing that fact.
The scaling death debuff timer is much, much worse. In times of heavy conflict it will easily(after all, you can make things worse by dying at any point within 4+death counter days. Any war will involve frequent PvP) become a several hour affair that can and will take up someone's entire available playtime if they happen to be unlucky enough to get engaged and lose PvP at the start of a session.

To the people who don't like dying; don't die. Don't put yourself in the situation where you die. Prepare better for the circumstances you might find yourself in. We're lucky to be in a situation where our characters CAN come back to life.

Sound advice kids. Don't make any alignment but neutral! Don't take a hard stance on anything! Don't stir the pot and create conflict, it could get you killed! And remember not to join any kind of militant faction that has any sort of creed or backbone; It'd be a shame to fight a faction of opposing alignment that could wipe your group out in a fight and then likely bash the lot of you.

Oh wait... no. Thats the wrong mentality to make the server interesting. An RP server thrives on conflict. Incentivising not stirring the pot or taking a hardline stance and standing up for your PC's beliefs due to fear of mechanical punishment for failure will only push us further into the pragmatic permissive environment we already complain about as being bad for immersion.

[Trunx]

Or, since the debuff timer scales, take a step back from conflict for a while after you die and your corpse gets mutilated. It doesn't prevent you from stirring the pot or taking a stance. It encourages you to treat your defeat like it has some consequences, if even for a short period of time.

[DarkDreamer]

Also god forbids you try to play a....."WAIT FOR IT".....EVIL CHARACTER....Knowing from personal experience, the banites for instance were one of THE highest PVP on sight factions going for quite a while. It has taken A LOT to undo that and its still a work in progress.I even heard one of the previous faction leaders of the Banites quit because he couldnt stand being killed every time he logged on, now imagine if he had to deal with the crap we do now?

[Durvayas]

Or, since the debuff timer scales, take a step back from conflict for a while after you die and your corpse gets mutilated. It doesn't prevent you from stirring the pot or taking a stance. It encourages you to treat your defeat like it has some consequences, if even for a short period of time.

4+ real life days before the system resets. You seem to forget that. That isn't a short period.

A couple hours? Sure thats brief.
A day? Sure I guess. Gives you time overnight.
Four days? no. A lot is going to happen in that time, and in any serious conflict, you're guaranteed to get into at least a second or third fight during the same week.

[Trunx]

Four days? no. A lot is going to happen in that time, and in any serious conflict, you're guaranteed to get into at least a second or third fight during the same week.

No you're not, if you take steps to stay out of it. You're only guaranteed to get into a second or a third fight if you act like nothing happened and you're still a big badass. If you let the other side have their victory for the few days, or at least stay out of the fighting because you're recovering, you're not going to get specifically hunted down again despite doing nothing new to your opponents.

[One Two Three Five]

Yeah, like what? Durvayas plays drow, right? I've played UDers pretty exclusively lately and Andunor is a more required, smaller, settlement than you might think, especially compared to the surface. With everyone congregating in the Hub due to necessity, it's hard to avoid other UDers if you end up in a war with them.

You could of course not play for four days. Play something else. Learn guitar. WoW's free till level 20, these days. But I don't think 'don't play the game' is a good fix. Especially not from a player-retention standpoint.

[HindianaJones]

im not gonna lambaste anyones opinion as everyone has a right to them....but I will remind on one thing....this is a ROLEPLAY server, not a PVP server. Yes actions have consequences, but why is there less consequence when I am killed by a monster vs a player? Your all keen to justify PvP but no one even considers that it should be the same all around, so should you get the same punishment every time your lowbie gets killed by monsters

Good argument, death in PvE should also be 20 minutes.

[One Two Three Five]

Everything should be equally player hostile. Or, you know, not. And instead be appealing or fun in any way.

[Diilicious]

I think this is the main benefit of this system. To the people who don't like dying; don't die. Don't put yourself in the situation where you die. Prepare better for the circumstances you might find yourself in. We're lucky to be in a situation where our characters CAN come back to life.

Im sorry but this rediculous and drastically oversimplified advice and can only correlate to somebody sitting in the module all alone or knowing exactly what other people around you are going to do, which you dont and if you did that would take away all of the fun of even playing role play games to start with.

I was inside my cottage tending to somebodies wounds, the door knocks, I open the door and go outside the person i was with comes with me, we are surrounded by summons and get killed by them.

is that my fault then? I died before i could even cast a single spell. Did i put myself into a situation where I die just by going out of the door to my quarter? I guess i deserve to be out of the game for an extended period of time.

[Black Wendigo]

DD you are making assumptions that are your opinion but not true. You CAN play with your friends on Arelith after getting death penalties. For example, that's what alt chars are for. Also death penalties don't mean you cannot RP. And no you are not getting hurt by anything the devs are doing, you are taking it that way. Everyone has to live with the same rules as you do and most of us don't get fell hurt about it. We get over it and move on.

There are many many ways to compensate for what the rules or changes to the game make us do. Being frustrated is part of life and we have to deal with it all the time. I am not trying to be patronizing. I am trying to offer you alternatives to what I see as suffering you are bringing onto yourself.

Above all please remeber it's just a game. If you have to play something else because of something like the death penalties is ruining your experience, then I would say by all means do so. I've done this many times on Arelith when things piss me off or become too hostile or just plain not fun.

[Nightglory]

What I genuinely cannot understand with the new death system is why are penalties worse when you die again? I really cannot see any benefits of this mechanic, which is not the case for the rest of the new update (whether or not I agree with it).

I don't think griefing is very frequent in Arelith PvP at the moment, but sometimes people do attack after dropping a few one liners. And honestly, if people don't grief the same victim over and over, then why do penalties have to get worse?

It just seems to encourage people to do just that and has the potential to move towards a more toxic PvP environment. I would not be happy if I died to a pvp situation with questionable RP and had to retire the character for 32 hours. Before this, it was much easier to just shrug and move on.

It also encourages the killers in PvP to not take death seriously, as they have incentives to attack someone over and over. "Damn, we got him good. Same time tomorrow?" And yes, you can RP death penalties but as was established when this update was introduced, it gets old quick and most people just log off. Maybe if death penalties were made more varied and interesting, this would change, but at the moment its just tedious. That the timer resets completely whenever you die again makes it worse as well.

[Yma23]

Before I begin - I want to say I am entirely on the fence about the death penalties, with no strong feelings either way. I'm mostly posting here to refuse some points from all angles.

1) This system isn't fun! If it's not fun it shouldn't be done!
Not neccesarly. Death is NEVER fun, but it's needed. If we were going on what was just 'fun' all the time, then every character would start at level 30, with 3000000000 in the bank, and would never ever die. Sometimes having consequences that arn't 'fun' are key to making the rest of the game more fun.
Further more just because something is 'fun' for you doesn't mean it's 'fun' for others. This is a roleplaying game, the aim of the new death script is to encourage people to roleplay death more seriously. Sure it's not 'fun' for you to die, but it's not 'fun' for your adversery to have their kill just shaken off as it were nothing.
With That Being Said - I find that whilst mechanics can encourage roleplay a certain way, and even support it, they can rarely force it, and when they do people tend to get resentful. So how effective this is is another matter.

Point 2) 'Lol. Just don't die!'
This is an issue that is not always under your control. Duvyas has already pointed out the problems in reguards playing a character who has any sort of 'conflict' in their backgrounds, and a situation made more difficult for evil characters.
But this pendulim swings both ways, as Diicious pointed out, you can play the most milk-toast-gentle-none-conflict character ever, if you happen to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, for a Drow Raiding group? you could still end up dead(*1) Or even just dead by accidenal pvp.

Point 3) 'But if you roleplay your death well, just roleplay the defeat, then it'll be fine!'
In theory I agree with this. In Theory I think that's what this new system is meant to encourage. In theory I even AGREE with this! But it does behove me to point out that even so, the fate of your character is not in your hands.
You can rp as you want, if the other person wants you dead because they just don't like you - they're gonna kill you. Yeah sure, begging for your life ect will make that less likely, but it's by no means a guarantee.

I suppose my main concern about this comes not really from a Surfacer perspective, but from the Underdark - where people are tightly cramped, where agression and ambition is high, and where it's very easy to act a like a... er.... Not Very Nice Person, but it's activly encouraged due to the IC nature of the place.

I don't know how bad it's been for players down there, but I can see it destroying some concepts pretty easily. For example, I wonder if the Lalaskaran church would have gotten so far, if repeated deaths gave such dire consequences.(2)

(1) Not to disrespect Drow Raiding groups, makes perfect sense you'd kill, even bash bodies after attacking. But it makes that situation even worse, especialy if it's done multiple times.

(2) Again I don't mean any disrespect to any underdark players, or to the Lalaskan players, or anyone else. You're all wonderful folks and the best of rpers, many, many hugs to you all!

[Iceborn]

Death is not meant to be fun.
But in a RPing server, it should have some dynamic to it. Something more than simply dying, respawning and the perpetual continuation of the awkward way it is handled.