STR Melee is bad, please buff

[AstralUniverse]

Comparing apr and damage alone is vacuum.

I cannot agree more, However i want to expand on this to include 90% hypothetical build discussions that happen on the forums.
So much of the conceptual discussion that happens exists in the vacuum of hypothetical land, 1vs1 blah blah and the reality never plays out like that. random number Jesus makes fools of all builds. Gems of nullification sell for less than 10k. Breach wands are a dime a dozen. You can run away from a true strike potion.

I used to belong to the hypothetical spreadsheet camp, where in a bubble its just numbers vs numbers and the highest number wins. But even as mentioned earlier in the thread, the following logic was used (and i'm paraphrasing) "arena not being a good example because its close quarters and suits x build". Guess what, There are so many unique situations in this game EXTERNAL to building that will change the course of a fight. Maybe you're running away from a truestrike and you get caught on one of those invisible ledges or walls. Maybe you're an archer whos build is "trash" because your AC sucks, But guess what, You know how to archer and have the higher ground and positioning, where the opponent has a terrible pathing opportunity to get to you.
Just a few examples.

I really need to stop getting involved in these discussions, because i should know better after a decade of arelith that people are always going to have something to complain about with regards to builds.

I guess i just don't want to see what happens with all other games happen to arelith.... In games like leagues or wow or whatever, people complain about whats in in the meta because they are losing to it and haven't spent the time to, without sounding rude, Git gud.
And if the noise is loud enough, they will be "balanced" and lose any resemblance of uniqueness or originality, and the game becomes dull.

One of the things i love about this game is its variety of ways to achieve ANYTHING you want, And there are many ways to do it, Some, stronger than others, and thats OKAY!!! I've made min-max builds that can solo all pve content, i've played rangermonks that destroy errythang, but i've also played characters whos entire build was focused on the roleplay they brought to the table, skills and other abilities that seem gimmicky and a waste of time. They are all viable.

But, i promise you this, there is a counter to everything, and if you don't know how to stop something, you just don't know the answer yet.
But maybe that counter is weak in a number of other areas, so people will write it off as "trash tier".

That doesn't mean the counter doesn't exist. Balance exists in this game if you're willing to look for it, or play it. And you know whats funny about that idea? I've played PvP builds designed to counter the "in-meta" powerhouses of the moment, and levelled it up and then never actually combatted that build.

Anyway, i'm out because i've triggered myself by being here.

Also, see my signature. I am wrong. Prove me right.

If we'd listen to people like you we might as well not touch anything and leave pvp to battle clerics and pure sorcs only. I dont know why you think that, and participate in balance discussions, it is indeed a weird one.

In my opinion, not every discussion has to lead to some change and updates. It can as well be left in the air if the Team is busy working on other things or just think the player feedback in the forums is just incorrect. That's fine. But these threads can lead to shift in mindset and highlight builds people havent tried before. These threads have ripple effects and its a good thing.

League is one of the most popular games in the world (yes, it still is) BECAUSE it's ever evolving.

[Anomandaris]

It almost looks like when reading this that there are “camps” a str player and a dex player camp. But the reality is there is complete equal opportunity. Anyone can spin up almost any build and they’re posted all over. Anyone can play a “tier one” mundane, caster, tank, battlemage or rogue/assassin style PC (using archetypes here). Then there are lower tier builds based on either class combos, race, weapon choices, lack of min-maxing etc. If there were simply 1-2 types of builds and not, I’d say 10-15 types of builds that were “extremely threatening in their own unique viable ways” I would agree with the premise that there is a balance issue. I want to play a svirf sorc, but guess what, I can’t. Do I think that sucks? Yes, is svirf imbalanced a little? Yah probably. Can I play any number of perfectly viable svirf builds and deal? Yep!! And when I say threatening I mean practically, not hypothetically with theorycrafting. My rogue SD has 43 AB. That’s AWFUL. I have killed a lot of chars with tactics, consumables and creative means (plus crazy burst dmg).

I’m not saying don’t have the discussion, it’s the tone of a lot of the discussion I take cause with. Not all, but some is hyperbolic, uninformed and just factually wrong. There is “imbalance” but there is no “balance issue.” Make small delicate changes or risk creating one where there wasn’t. Making CH AC, saves and dmg bonuses and/or wis ac and/or ubab all scale would destroy many active builds and create a lot of unhappiness for players who have invested in these chars, for what? Ppl that care about mechanical power and want to get good at PvP will still do that and some won’t. It’s like the economy and society you can’t create “equality” you can create equal(ish) opportunity and the result is often unequal.

If the issue is mechanically superior chars imposing their will on your rp, let me tell you. There is and only ever will be 3 solutions to this, only one of which is admin/server side and none have anything to do with changing a thing.

1) get help (ooc griefing or ic friends depending on situation)
2) git gud (seriously, if it’s important to you then learn, get in PGCC and duel, do 2v3s 2v4s 5v5s etc). If you think people don’t practice then you’re wrong.
3) get in line with the meta and build it. You can not remove the meta, you cannot make it go away it. It just is. There will always be a meta and until you have DMs auditing new PC builds to tell players as a disclaimer their build could be more optimal one way than another (silly I know) there will always be in-meta and out-of—meta-builds.

If we engage as hyperbolic camp centric players we will not be having intellectually honest discourse about what to adjust, we will be championing our pet causes. This is a problem because sometimes people do listen and the squeaky wheel gets the grease (not to besmirch in any way the judgment of the dev team). You have options and there’s a counter for everything (even if you don’t know it), but not everything has a counter to everything. Stop trying to weaken the adversary and focus on improving your own game. One will get far greater results that way.

[Rico_scorpion]

Reading through the thread, It's funny how this divide is aeons old, and cross discipline.

Should the state regulate the market or a free market balances itself?
Should the devs ensure an healthy and fair pvp environment, or it will balance itself throught the meta?

The parallel is pretty striking. Not that it brings anything to the discussion. Just a thought.

[Hazard]

Reading through the thread, It's funny how this divide is aeons old, and cross discipline.

Should the state regulate the market or a free market balances itself?
Should the devs ensure an healthy and fair pvp environment, or it will balance itself throught the meta?

The parallel is pretty striking. Not that it brings anything to the discussion. Just a thought.

>_> Maybe a bad example, but I get what you mean.

[godhand-]

wall of accurate text - snip

+1 again.

Leagues has been brought up, and its a great example. In Leagues there are tiers of player, bronze to diamond master super amazing grand tier, to segregate skill tiers of players. In arelith there are not.

There are going to be players that are simply better than you, and will, without a shadow of a doubt, beat you 19/20.

There is also the fact that, a numerically inferior build played by that player will also beat you with the better build, case in point, above post about 43AB characters beating numerically better builds by outplaying them.

This is what happens in leagues, you could give me, the casual bronze player, the best character in the game, against his weakest opponent, and i will still lose to the top tier player.

Should the state regulate the market or a free market balances itself?
Should the devs ensure an healthy and fair pvp environment, or it will balance itself throught the meta?

The state should regulate the market, when there is a GLARING imbalance. The one in this discussion thread is not one of those, but when the narrative is filled with hyperbole as Jordenk notes, it leads people to believe it is.

*edit to finish sentences*

[-XXX-]

STR melee is much better for PvE than DEX - steamrolling through spawns like a hot knife through butter is much more fun and much better at XP/treasure grinding than slowly chipping away monsters.

PvE makes up the majority of gameplay experience (this applies even to the most determined PvP connoisseurs) - IMO that's where the emphasis on balance should be. Personally, I don't hate the idea of certain build archetypes being better in PvE at the cost of being outclassed in PvP (and vice versa).

Of course, most builds optimized for PvP will also have no issues tackling the PvE content either. This is more of a matter of fun and efficiency.

[Dr. B]

STR melee is much better for PvE than DEX - steamrolling through spawns like a hot knife through butter is much more fun and much better at XP/treasure grinding than slowly chipping away monsters.

Not sure what builds you're thinking of, but there are a wealth of dex builds out there that have serious damage output and shred through spawns quite easily, at least once they get to a certain level. Maybe you have in mind early leveling?

[Jencent]

STR melee is much better for PvE than DEX - steamrolling through spawns like a hot knife through butter is much more fun and much better at XP/treasure grinding than slowly chipping away monsters.

PvE makes up the majority of gameplay experience (this applies even to the most determined PvP connoisseurs) - IMO that's where the emphasis on balance should be. Personally, I don't hate the idea of certain build archetypes being better in PvE at the cost of being outclassed in PvP (and vice versa).

Of course, most builds optimized for PvP will also have no issues tackling the PvE content either. This is more of a matter of fun and efficiency.

Most of DEX build have no trouble in PVE too. Ranger/monk even can't be damaged, because of vampirism.

[-XXX-]

I stated even myself that most builds optimized for PvP won't have an issue during PvE. It's just that STR builds can simply outDPS them - especially when considering that PvE spawns don't tend to have ridiculous AC and are usually built more with the emphasis on higher HP and/or DR. That means STR melee builds are able to kill spawns faster and grind faster.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I stated even myself that most builds optimized for PvP won't have an issue during PvE. It's just that STR builds can simply outDPS them - especially when considering that PvE spawns don't tend to have ridiculous AC and are usually built more with the emphasis on higher HP and/or DR. That means STR melee builds are able to kill spawns faster and grind faster.

Except for all those pesky crit immune undead and constructs. When you're a crit reliant WM and get surrounded by zombies or golems you are pretty much dead. A quarterstaff with double spellsword imbues or +4-5 blade thirst will shred them all though while keeping you healed up. You can try and shift the goal post and claim that you shouldn't let yourself get surrounded but that doesn't change the fact that a spellsword/monk or ranger/monk could just mindlessly wade through thousands of them with no trouble.

[-XXX-]

Except for all those pesky crit immune undead and constructs. When you're a crit reliant WM and get surrounded by zombies or golems you are pretty much dead. A quarterstaff with double spellsword imbues or +4-5 blade thirst will shred them all though while keeping you healed up. You can try and shift the goal post and claim that you shouldn't let yourself get surrounded but that doesn't change the fact that a spellsword/monk or ranger/monk could just mindlessly wade through thousands of them with no trouble.

Ah, I see what the issue is now. It can't really be in the weapon buffs as STR based melee builds can utilize them as well (admittedly, they're not always entirely self-reliant in this regards, but they ~can~). It would almost appear as if Monk APR nerf was needed yesterday...

[Baron Saturday]

What if at monk level 1 you had to choose: Monk APR now and Wisdom AC later, or vice versa. Have the other benefit kick in at level 6. That way someone planning to go pure/monk heavy would pick AC, and would get the APR at the level it becomes relevant, whereas someone planning a dip would have to choose - or make a bigger investment.

[Drowboy]

I like that a lot, actually. Doesn't hurt real monks, either, unless they dip out of monk at level 4.

The ranger gets shunted down to 24/6 or back to 21/6/3, which hurts the blade thirst power, dispelability, number of favored enemies...

I don't think they can do the ubab tho. (Could make qstaffs not take ubab till 6, maybe?)

[Baron Saturday]

I wondered if hard coded stuff might be an issue. I honestly dunno what is and what isn't at this point, but I have learned not to underestimate the devs!

[ImWithThisGuy]

As far as this goes for me, I have mixed feelings. Pardon the wall of text.

Meta-wise, your typical strength build might fall somewhere below the highest tiers, but when played and built well can gain a massive advantage over other builds. Discipline is still very relevant, and the difference between a dex and str character is going to be 10 or more points difference. This means a dex build is going to spend 50% more time on their butt than the next str build. (Edit, forgot to mention concentration checks!) Plus the added damage makes a whole world of difference versus disrupting spellcasting, something that is impossible for most dex builds.

That said, one thing I do think is happening more lately than not is that some builds are simply pushing too many boundaries, and people start targeting the system rather than the build. People will always build then next best thing, but if it's causing issues due to balance, it might need tweaking. As perhaps the greatest example; the typical ranger monk dip base has great ab, more than solid damage, high skill point access, good saves, great ac, Semi-HiPS, Vamp-regen, and even has room for a large variety of a third dip classes; fighter, rogue, WM, or whatever your heart desires. It's easy to play, has a fair time leveling, and has incredible versatility.

But looking at typical builds isn't going to get anyone very far, because on the opposite end, there are the divine champions that reach and maintain the heights of 58 ab and 70 damage a hit, with very little windup (Read as 2 rounds). I'm not sure how any dex build beats that, including the aforementioned ranger monk dip. In regards to PvP, I'd simply say that you win some you lose some. Even though those silly ranger monks need some looking at.

I haven't mentioned anything in regards to PvE balance, but I feel as though that's really not that important, simply because there is too much variance in what builds are capable of. There are variants of the last build I mentioned which hit for 100+ EVERY attack with sneak attacks (mind the 58ab). Then there are trueflames and warlocks that barrage things with infinite missiles/blasts from a darkness. And further, there are classes that sit behind an 80% concealment 8/DR +8Regen EDodge shadow and can just chill, however detrimental it might be in some cases.

PvE balance is so few and far in-between, and if soloing is something that someone really wants, that needs to be considered on creation. There are in fact str builds that can solo, such as the bard Pally/bg dips. Tribal barbarians also have a pretty easy time. Spellswords have it pretty well off, with the benefit of being high in the meta. Palemaster also comes to mind, meanwhile druids reign supreme and can solo basically everything. But even if they can't solo the end game content, that only goes to show that... well? They shouldn't be. Even the dex builds shouldn't be, but they will still struggle with just as many, for the same or different reasons.

Creating new builds with interesting and fun ideas is great, and I never want that to go away. There are dozens, maybe hundreds of failed builds on both sides of the dex vs str argument. In the end I have to disagree with a general buff to a whole spectrum like this; It is changes like this that lead to the largest amount of power-creep, which Arelith already has an ever digging hole of. And that is the last thing we need more of.

[AstralUniverse]

I wondered if hard coded stuff might be an issue. I honestly dunno what is and what isn't at this point, but I have learned not to underestimate the devs!

Hard code or not, you'd have to disable monk ac and ubab entirely, add them as selectable feats, add bonus feats to monk at lvl 1 and 6 and these bonus feats can only be used for ubab or wis ac and you need to still make sure ubab doesnt work with armor/shield regardless. Sounds like a nightmare to code.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Meta-wise, your typical strength build might fall somewhere below the highest tiers, but when played and built well can gain a massive advantage over other builds. Discipline is still very relevant, and the difference between a dex and str character is going to be 10 or more points difference. This means a dex build is going to spend 50% more time on their butt than the next str build. (Edit, forgot to mention concentration checks!) Plus the added damage makes a whole world of difference versus disrupting spellcasting, something that is impossible for most dex builds.

Knockdown was nerfed so it can't be spammed anymore. Furthermore there are so many +4 disc items that you don't even need to take ESF:Disc on a Dex build to resist knockdown most of the time. A couple of piker's rings and a watcher's discipline is +13 disc. Disciple's Garb, which all these monk dips will be wearing, gives yet another +4 disc. So with four pieces of gear you have +17 disc, easy to slip +2 disc on another item, chug a bull strength pot, and max out that skill bonus. That's 53 disc without ESF:disc, 63 with it. This is on top of AC in the 60's/70's and 50% concealment if the DEXer is really a try-hard. Yeah, good luck scoring a knockdown against that with a 40 AC STR build while taking 300 DPS a round.

[FollowerOfMask]

I feel as if I'm less equipped to talk about this issue, but would still like my 2 cents added in.

I recently came back to Arelith after an 8+ year break. All the mechanical changes added to the server were a little overwhelming. What better way to come back than with a build that's nearly impossible to mess up? Enter a two-handed proficient 25 fighter / 5 rogue build.

The early levels? CAKE! 1-10 I could solo anything my level, possibly even higher. Even with +2 ECL, nothing is holding me back~!

10 - 15 wasn't bad either, but I started getting hit a lot more than I expected. No issue though, I'm still hitting hard and dropping mobs left and right.

15 - 20? This is where I'm currently stuck struggling. I CHOSE to go with a shieldless build. I knew I'd get hit more frequently... but even at 15 fighter levels, boosting my AC +2, and full adamantine armor, I've only got an AC of 31. And this is with points in tumble, a skill that suffers from the armor I'm wearing.

I'd wanted to stay away from shields. Realistically, I don't think I can. I've already taken exotic proficiency to wield a b-sword should it come down to that for later game PvE.

My build is ~far~ from optimized. I don't want to play the game with a mindset of "Oh, I put one point in the wrong skill, I need to relevel this one" but I find myself thinking like that just to try and squeeze a few more AC out to do a dungeon of my level and not get instantly shut down. Not to mention, with garbage will saves, I'm virtually non-existent in a fight if someone drops a fear spell or anything with a will save, for that matter. Class simplicity seems to align with classes lower on the 'meta' list. Maybe that's as intended? Either way, I can't roleplay as a frontline fighter if every attack against me hits.

I will say, the '-guard' mechanic is a godsend... when I can find someone willing to put their HP on the line for my sake. Two fighters, one to tank, on to DPS, is rather nice. I'd just like a few more bumps, or ways to bump, my AC up higher. I'll be grabbing expertise soon enough, then I can play that as a 'defensive stance' and likely still deal damage as well.

[Dr. B]

Are you carrying around scrolls and/or potions of Mage Armor, Shield, and Cat's Grace? Do you have +1 AC on your boots and amulet? Those will help somewhat. 2-handers do suffer from lower AC but you should be able to achieve better than 31 if you use the right tools. Expertise is also helpful. So is concealment. A displacer beast cloak is handy here.

I'm not voicing a verdict on whether 2-handers could use a buff, but there are definitely some solutions to the problem you've described here.

[Drowboy]

As a note, the armor doesn't effect the ac your tumble ranks give you.

[Halibutthead]

Sounds like a nightmare to code.

it's literally the same thing they did to make the loremaster, sans the feature disabling, that they have also done. whether or not it's difficult, we know they're capable

[AstralUniverse]

I feel as if I'm less equipped to talk about this issue, but would still like my 2 cents added in.

I recently came back to Arelith after an 8+ year break. All the mechanical changes added to the server were a little overwhelming. What better way to come back than with a build that's nearly impossible to mess up? Enter a two-handed proficient 25 fighter / 5 rogue build.

The early levels? CAKE! 1-10 I could solo anything my level, possibly even higher. Even with +2 ECL, nothing is holding me back~!

10 - 15 wasn't bad either, but I started getting hit a lot more than I expected. No issue though, I'm still hitting hard and dropping mobs left and right.

15 - 20? This is where I'm currently stuck struggling. I CHOSE to go with a shieldless build. I knew I'd get hit more frequently... but even at 15 fighter levels, boosting my AC +2, and full adamantine armor, I've only got an AC of 31. And this is with points in tumble, a skill that suffers from the armor I'm wearing.

I'd wanted to stay away from shields. Realistically, I don't think I can. I've already taken exotic proficiency to wield a b-sword should it come down to that for later game PvE.

My build is ~far~ from optimized. I don't want to play the game with a mindset of "Oh, I put one point in the wrong skill, I need to relevel this one" but I find myself thinking like that just to try and squeeze a few more AC out to do a dungeon of my level and not get instantly shut down. Not to mention, with garbage will saves, I'm virtually non-existent in a fight if someone drops a fear spell or anything with a will save, for that matter. Class simplicity seems to align with classes lower on the 'meta' list. Maybe that's as intended? Either way, I can't roleplay as a frontline fighter if every attack against me hits.

I will say, the '-guard' mechanic is a godsend... when I can find someone willing to put their HP on the line for my sake. Two fighters, one to tank, on to DPS, is rather nice. I'd just like a few more bumps, or ways to bump, my AC up higher. I'll be grabbing expertise soon enough, then I can play that as a 'defensive stance' and likely still deal damage as well.

Some things are just not meant to be. You're not supposed to solo lvl 15+ content as a two-hander. Because, think about it, how do you balance a dungeon for your build to be able to do, and at the same time, for a build that clears spawns slightly slower than you but has 7 more ac and likely isnt going to take any damage in that dungeon, in that scenario. It doesnt make sense that a twohander will be able to AC-tank the same content as same build but with shield (as opposed to barbarians which care less about ac because they relay more on big HP pool and reductions). This is why it is very good that you picked up exotic prof so you can do much better with a shield in later content.

That aside, leveling as a two hander to 15ish is very doable.
10 + 1 dex + 9 steel full plate + 4 shield scroll + 3 barkskin potion + 1 boots + 1 mage armor + 1 tumble = 30 and there can be ftr bonus on top. This is about what you need to level a two hander to mid teens.

[FollowerOfMask]

Are you carrying around scrolls and/or potions of Mage Armor, Shield, and Cat's Grace? Do you have +1 AC on your boots and amulet? Those will help somewhat. 2-handers do suffer from lower AC but you should be able to achieve better than 31 if you use the right tools. Expertise is also helpful. So is concealment. A displacer beast cloak is handy here.

I'm not voicing a verdict on whether 2-handers could use a buff, but there are definitely some solutions to the problem you've described here.

Oh yeah, I excluded those from my calculations. Once I hit imp. expertise AND buff, I'll likely get around 50-55ish, but still will have trouble hitting attacks on 60+ AC, due to the soft ability cap of +12, amongst other things. I'm not here to debate mechanics. More to add the perspective of a newish/returning player who's more interested in story vs min-max.

[AstralUniverse]

What if we unlock EDR feats for characters with 21+ Fighter levels at lower constitution requirement, like 18? Would that open some building verity but not without some trade off in the offense and further epic feat investment?

[FollowerOfMask]

I do think fighters could use some love, some way. Barbs too, from what I'm hearing.