STR Melee is bad, please buff

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I'd love to play a character that carries a BIG sword and chops things up. But it isn't viable. Please make it viable. I'm not playing a gimped character that can't solo anything above level 20 without spending 50k in heal pots even if the concept looks cool. And pretty much every STR melee build I've tried seems to fall into that category. Casters are fine, DEX melee is fine, ranged is fine. But STR Melee is complete crap that gets 10 or more less AC than all other builds including naked casters while having about the same damage output and worse saves. To top it all off the only skill tied to their main ability score is Discipline, which isn't even really needed anymore. DEX bois get all the good skills and better equipment to choose from on top of better AC, saves, and in many cases even DPS. Please throw STR Melee a bone here and give them something to let them actually compete in the current meta.

[Jencent]

Let me clean this situation:
1) STR gives you damage, AB and weight capacity which is a good chunk of QoL. (Try to play a PC with 8STR.)
2) Dex builds based on small amount of weapon (finesse weapon). You must spend feat for it or take a class with this feat in. You suffer from low damage and weigh capacity. (But for this you will recive AC and saves.)

And now you wanna give STR builds more AC and close the only thing weak point in STR builds?
I'm get you right?

Just imaginate... Barb/wm with normal AC...

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Let me clean this situation:
1) STR gives you damage, AB and weight capacity which is a good chunk of QoL. (Try to play a PC with 8STR.)
2) Dex builds based on small amount of weapon (finesse weapon). You must spend feat for it or take a class with this feat in. You suffer from low damage and weigh capacity. (But for this you will recive AC and saves.)

And now you wanna give STR builds more AC and close the only thing weak point in STR builds?
I'm get you right?

I've played both STR Melee and DEX Melee. Not taking into account things like Divine Might or True Strike, which DEX Melee can also get, and considering Weapon Finesse is a thing, and that Monk UBAB gives you more than twice the APR... Yeah, I get the same or MORE AB on Dex Melee builds than I do on any STR builds I've tried, and the same or MORE DPS also. In fact, against higher AC opponents, DEX will ALWAYS have more DPS because they will land more nat 20's... If Dex builds actually had less AB and less DPS you might have a point but you don't. They get the same or more AB/DPS with 10-15 more AC on top of that.

[Jencent]

Let me clean this situation:
1) STR gives you damage, AB and weight capacity which is a good chunk of QoL. (Try to play a PC with 8STR.)
2) Dex builds based on small amount of weapon (finesse weapon). You must spend feat for it or take a class with this feat in. You suffer from low damage and weigh capacity. (But for this you will recive AC and saves.)

And now you wanna give STR builds more AC and close the only thing weak point in STR builds?
I'm get you right?

I've played both STR Melee and DEX Melee. Not taking into account things like Divine Might or True Strike, which DEX Melee can also get, and considering Weapon Finesse is a thing, and that Monk UBAB gives you more than twice the APR... Yeah, I get the same or MORE AB on Dex Melee builds than I do on any STR builds I've tried, and the same or MORE DPS also. In fact, against higher AC opponents, DEX will ALWAYS have more DPS because they will land more nat 20's... If Dex builds actually had less AB and less DPS you might have a point but you don't. They get the same or more AB/DPS with 10-15 more AC on top of that.

So... Looks like your problem it's not STR/DEX, your problem is monk.

[Jencent]

Also... If we start to talk about builds and your "intolerance" to monks... Try to wild-dwarf saber-STR SB/DD/WM build. You will laugh to the face of any monk or ranger. And you will don't give a shit about highter APR.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Adamantine Armour (not the Shields, or the Helm) should give either +4 AC, or +3 AC with higher Damage Immunities.

Right now, in the meta of wanting good saves, Adamantine offers a pitiful upgrade over Mithril.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Adamantine Armour (not the Shields, or the Helm) should give either +4 AC, or +3 AC with higher Damage Immunities.

Right now, in the meta of wanting good saves, Adamantine offers a pitiful upgrade over Mithril.

I suggested in the quarterstaff thread that Adamantine should offer enough DR that APR alone won't melt a fighter in a round or two. Something like 10 DR on adamantine full plate would be a good start on bringing STR Melee up to the same level as DEX Melee.

[Jencent]

Adamantine Armour (not the Shields, or the Helm) should give either +4 AC, or +3 AC with higher Damage Immunities.

Right now, in the meta of wanting good saves, Adamantine offers a pitiful upgrade over Mithril.

I suggested in the quarterstaff thread that Adamantine should offer enough DR that APR alone won't melt a fighter in a round or two. Something like 10 DR on adamantine full plate would be a good start on bringing STR Melee up to the same level as DEX Melee.

10/-?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

10/-?

That's a tricky one, because it is not unheard of for some of these 10 APR builds to get +4 or +5 weapons from Blade Thirst. I would not be opposed to just making it a flat 10 that can't be penetrated. It is adamantine after all, people have to spend a quarter of a million gold for a full plate of the stuff.

[Hazard]

[Hunter548]

While you're right that dex builds are way stronger than strength builds right now, I'm not convinced that the solution isn't to nerf dex builds back into line.

Part of the problem is that the KD nerf means you can just run away from melee forever now and archers don't have that problem on top of doing WM-rivaling-damage at range.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

The way I see it, pretty much every type of build you could come up with is in a good place except STR Melee. We could nerf DEX Melee, but then DEX archers will be the big dogs, we can nerf them too but then casters will be the big dogs. I don't think we should play whack-a-mole nerfing every possible build until they're all equally as trash as STR Melee builds. I'm not totally against a nerf to DEX Melee, but STR Melee will still be the red-headed step-child of builds even if we do. I practically never see anyone with an actual sword (rapiers and katanas do not count..) and when I do I think, "Huh, they must be new or they would have picked a viable build."

[fading]

I don't really understand, why is str melee bad now? Str scimitar WM has always been one of the better builds. Paladin/Cot/WM has excellent AB and damage. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but I don't see how they're bad.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I don't really understand, why is str melee bad now? Str scimitar WM has always been one of the better builds. Paladin/Cot/WM has excellent AB and damage. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but I don't see how they're bad.

If I was to build a STR Melee rn that would probably be the build I go with since it actually achieves decent saves and AC. The main problem I have with the build is that it relies on Divine Might and Divine Shield a lot which means it eventually runs out of gas and just becomes a WM with decent saves, which admittedly isn't bad, but it still gets out-performed by DEX Melee builds which can do the same things but better. I'm not really counting things like Divine Might or Shield in favor of STR Melee since you can throw those on the DEX builds too.

[Hazard]

Reverse KD change?

[Royal Blood]

If you play a strength build just roleplay that you have higher damage. Easy.

[Hazard]

If you play a strength build just roleplay that you have higher damage. Easy.

That's actually really funny. Thank you.

[AstralUniverse]

I feel like in the current meta, str builds with/without shield have just slightly lower ac than they should and I join the opinion that addy full plate should be raised to +4 ac.

[Anomandaris]

Wait, what? The alpha strike potential on str builds can be absolutely terrifying. Barb/wm is a serious force to be reckoned with, not to mention Becleric, Spellsword/WM, DD combos and others (even Str SD!!). You can build for tankage or for dmg. And the fact that weapon selection is limited is no dif than dex. Qstaff is mechanically superior period with monk levels. Daggers or if halfng dale sword if dual wield and rapier if not and using shield.

The issue in my opinion is an imbalance between the weapons that make either str or dex often pick the same weapon because it is just obviously superior. Or there is simply a racial weapon that far outshines any other available like orog bsword, svirf hammer, Moon blade etc.

A str build can also cross class into rogue or monk as well and get tumble plus wis AC, str rangers are a thing and incredibly dangerous. I don’t see str builds as weak, I see them as serving one of two very sensible roles, with great efficacy.

In the top 10 builds of the server I’d say at least 3-5 use str. The only “caster” mage in that list is a wild mage, and while dex PCs with 70-80 AC and 8 apr are spooky they’re fishing for 20s and a lot of builds can just walk away laughing. Full BaB progression, big crits and dmg are still incredibly powerful in PvP. I do however feel your pain on PvE, it can be tough to play one of these builds in many dungeon solo, but the same goes for others even some dex builds. Get a PC to -guard or a mage to buff/summon. Just like that high AC dex PC probably needs some help with dmg or they’ll die of old age before finishing the dungeon.

Granted, str tank is more often hp and DR dependent than AC but it can be done. Conversely dex dmg is either archer or sneak dependent, which is highly unreliable past the alpha strike with HIPs CD change.

tldr: There are top tier str builds. Weapon selection is limited across both because often there are simply mechanically superior options. PvE can be a sore spot but if you biffed str builds they’d be the de facto melee build.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

At the same, I am hesitant that buffing Adamantime Armours will just make Paladins stronger - and really, I guess the concern is that strength-based non-div builds are in a weird place.

I think part of the problem is that all of the new gear, items, and weapon changes haven't nerfed STR, but they've certainly narrowed the gap between STR and DEX builds. Rambling Midget mentioned in this in one of the previous iterations.

But, in general, 3.5e also suffered from strength eventually becoming a "dump stat" as the edition got solved by theorycrafters. It just affects such a small part of your character sheet, in comparison to Dex, and usually, damage is something that can be amplified via other means in a traditional party.

Maybe there should be new epic feats that open to characters with 25+ STR? Like "Uber Mega Knockdown" or "Ultimate Power Attack" or something, Idk. But maybe feat diversity with HIGH STR requirements could be a way for str-builds to flex without worrying that every str/cha build is also going to get the added benfits too.

[Rico_scorpion]

With devastating critical not being a thing and overwhelming critical being trash and just a stats increment (compared to arelith blinding speed, epic dodge, etc), I do feel that yes, mundane str chars need love in terms of feats. It is so boring to level one in epics (except for the three barb feats), there's basically nothing to look forward to aside from your usual 1-2 class related epics, and "stats increments" (epic weapon focus, etc) which are powerful but very much boring, doesn't bring anything new to your playstyle, doesn't even really feel like a powerspike, and most importantly: generate no identity whatsoever. On str mundanes, epic weapon focus doesn't feel like a choice, i don't CHOOSE to get it, i jsut have to, because nothing competes, or rather, there is nothing else to even choose from (exaggerating a tiny bit).

So yeah, ON TOP OF needing a buff to PVE, i feel they clearly do not get the same amount of toys as the other kids. Same applies to weapons-power. Adding new two handed weapons that really are EPIC in every sense of the word, could be another step. Something so strong that 6 AC is just equivalent. But even that won't help, because of the reason below:

One last thing, on the dps of str vs dex. Dex does make less damage, but here's the thing: STR char make ABSURD amount of damage, they nuke a foe out of existence, but lacking AOE, they get swarmed (in pve) and can't stand their ground efficiently (consumables, flee, or die). Meanwhile, sure the dex guy just makes "good damage" (and not absurd damages), but good damage is all you need to down a guy in a round or two. Except that dex guy can't get hit by the rest of the group. So that's why adding even more powerful two handeds won't help, their users don't need more oomph (except in the shape of AOEs, and even then...)

So yeah, for me it's not "str for dps" and "dex for defense", but "str for nukes" and "dex for defense and more than enough offense and utility and variety". Note that for PVE, the answer isn't by nerfing dex (maybe just monk dipping by requiring more investment like hexblade), but very much by giving an alternate defensive tool for str. The 10/- of Adamantine actually seems rather on point (maybe gated by ftr/pdk/barb/dd class umd). It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that to make the most of adamantine you need to know how to use it to your advantage. Or just add it as a feat to relevant classes "when using heavy armor, you get 2/- (iron) 4 (steel) 6 (Mithril) and 10 (adamantine)", half those values when using medium armor (let's not forget barbs).

My two cents. Share the love (for str!).

[Anomandaris]

The problem with a lot of these things is that we can't look at how the change will affect a specific subset of builds, but how also a change could be used in those 1-2 builds that will completely break something. The capacity for something that is moderately useful on a bunch of builds to get utterly exploited on a min-maxed build is always a concern. I think that bumping the DR on Ada could probably be ok, but I could also see that basically netting out all phys dmg from a whole RANGE of melee builds (especially dex) on a well built EDR PM build. So while it may sound good thinking about your average fighter, someone is going to do something absurd with stuff like this that we might not consider at the onset.

The same goes for PvE weaknesses getting filled that will also add buffs to the PC in PvP. The fact that a well built str char can easily dish out crits in the 200 range with a high threat range and very high AB means that any adjustment to survivability makes what is a terrifying alpha strike build into an absolute monster. And with the lore change making scrolls ultimately more accessible to a wider range of builds and mundane's having obscene CL's with these self-buffs, it's a pretty scary thing to buff these builds in my opinion. Add in terrifying rage, the realities of spell interrupts from big dmg and KD then you've got an absolute beast. The Barb/WM doesn't really care a whole lot about KD nerf when it can do 500 dmg in a round.

[cantalyssa]

Having the ability to do big damage with STR doesn't mean much when the majority of the server is running the same quarterstaff build, because you just will never hit them in the first place so having that ability doesn't mean anything. And on the off chance you do roll a 20 in one of your 5 attacks, it not going to confirm so you end up with like.. 60 damage per round if you're lucky?

Meanwhile, the other person is smacking you in a near untouchable state with a stick dealing ~30 damage per hit for like 6/7 out of 9 attacks per round because STR builds have terrible AC.

STR:

• Lower 50 to mid 50's AC is best you can ever hope for (that's with feats, haste, expertise, and divine shield)

• Slightly lower AB compared to the meta quarterstaff builds (~47 or so)

• The only thing STR builds could have over dex is better saves, and that's IF you take a dip for BG/Paladin/etc AND invest lots of points into Charisma (and gear))

• Carryweight

• Big damage (Lol, but the ability to deal big damage doesn't mean anything when like the meta is having 65+ AC)

• Pretty abysmal leveling experience due to low AC + Gear reliance for everything

• Half as many attacks per round

Dex:

• 60-70 AC with the same amount of investment as STR builds, if not less

• Same, if not better AB, depending on if your a meta build or not

• Good Reflex save, pretty bad others

• 5 attacks within -3 full AB, 4 bonus attacks on top of those 5

• Slightly lower damage
  • If you think DEX lacks damage for some reason, you're living under a rock... STR gets maybe 15-20 bonus damage to their attacks (Which mind you, aren't likely to hit in the first place, for the trade off of like 20 AC. Ask yourself if you would trade 1 ac for an extra point of damage before going down this arguement)

• Low carryweight in comparison

• Can solo majority of content and is a breeze to level

DEX builds just offer much, much more than STR builds do, other than carryweight, and they dont have to fork over half a million in gold to be effective. Not to mention, dex builds generally get more skill points than STR builds have have a plethora of options available to them.

STR really needs some help, and I think adding DR 10/- to adamantine (and scaling down for other armor types), a slightly better AC bonus (+1 across the board for all plate armors) would REALLY help in PVE at the very least. I don't think this buff would really matter much in PVP though.

Could possibly even take the route of locking weapon focuses behind Strength (specifically Epic Weapon Focus) (I'll be selling pitchforks outside of Cordor so get them while they're hot!). Maybe even adding some extra epic feats that require 20+ Strength as a prerequisite that boost AB or give an extra attack per round would be good too.

[Drowboy]

Does armor DR stack with EDR feats?

[The Rambling Midget]

Does armor DR stack with EDR feats?

Not in the base game, according to the wiki, but there's probably a way to kludge that, now.

And speaking of kludges, Dev Crit could probably be repurposed into something else, too.