Player Count Conclusions

[AstralUniverse]

You can access Wof from books with 35 umd, which is easier than 50 lore, it is something you want to do anyway, regardless if you go for 50+ lore, and that's not the reason loremaster is so popular.

If we look at these class spreads, it's very clear and evident that many of them do not take loremaster for combat optimization because they dont even have a discipline dip.

Loremaster is so popular because it has 1) Scry and 2) WAAAAY too many free languages.

[Nurel]

Loremaster is so popular because it has 1) Scry and 2) WAAAAY too many free languages.

Not to mention -yoink

All those who like to scour the seas know the incredible usefulness of -yoink and having it for "free" on an otherwise mundane character is just great

LM certainly is a greedy class, I am not surprised many people choose to use it for the perks

I guess it is fine for PCs who are actual Loremasters to have it without any nerfs, though. Maybe it should be gated behind RPR requirement?

[Security_Blanket]

PvP aside, I really doubt most people that take Loremaster levels do so because they're drawn to the Loremaster RP. It's not a real class, it's a dip class, the ultimate dip class in fact. PvP is not the only aspect of the game, I personally can't stand that they just learn languages, even rare languages like nothing.

When I made my Shadovar I thought that would be neat to speak in a specific language to my character's race and culture, but nope, because there are Loremaster's around that simple fun idea was completely destroyed by one single class. I no longer bother with languages, why would I? Loremaster has killed any motivation for me to want to learn a language on my character.

Loremasters are master linguists, magic device users, and get a couple endgame cookies available to only dedicated casters. Why wouldn't you take it if you want an edge in Arelith? Notice how I didn't say PvP, because it gives you an edge on the Arelith server as a whole.

[Peacewhisper]

Scry is one of the biggest advantages you can have in this game when it comes to PVP. Always being able to know where someone is, who all is around them, if they are warded or not, etc. before going to confront them basically guarantees you will almost always win at PVP. And we've given it to Fighter/WM's who can delete most characters in a round.

[Martoc]

Sorc numbers are truly sad, and indicative that the class is outshined from every direction. That's really a shame. It is a core class and classic D&D thematic concept. Paladins get oaths, maybe Sorcs get bloodline and metamagic? Its not 3e, but neither are oaths. They need some love in a bad way.

Imagine if they implemented something like the Pathfinder bloodlines for sorcerers here....so many options.

[Kenji]

Since the other post had truncated statistics (which is too biased), Kalopsia has provided me the whole statistics for analysis, here it is:

The spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ingle=true

Results

Loremaster is still getting nerfed, the team is already looking into it. If one wants to know why, it has more to do with how much it offers in both RP cookies as well as mechanical prowess, and that can be gone into detail in another thread. Note that the intended changes to Loremaster shouldn't affect Caster LMs as much as it does Mundne LMs.

[Ork]

Seems an odd thing to focus on while there's so much left undone, untouched and unnerfed. LM ain't powerful. It's comfy.

[Kythana]

Seems an odd thing to focus on while there's so much left undone, untouched and unnerfed. LM ain't powerful. It's comfy.

I mostly agree. It's strong still, but only used in the right context.

The statistics, however, show that a sizable majority of LM builds are being used for silly things that are absolutely not being built for mechanical superiority.

Only around 20% of all WMs have LM dips, and across all characters, it makes up around 2% of all builds.

Hardly the prevalent menace around every corner that it's made out to be.

[Chiana]

People like having access to things like yoink and portals, that's my conclusion

[30 RANGER FROM THE MOON]

Loremaster is still getting nerfed, the team is already looking into it. If one wants to know why, it has more to do with how much it offers in both RP cookies as well as mechanical prowess, and that can be gone into detail in another thread. Note that the intended changes to Loremaster shouldn't affect Caster LMs as much as it does Mundne LMs.

i encourage you to spool up that thread because the commentary on loremaster isnt going to stop, esp. in this thread.

it's going to get talked to death and it'd be good to know what the devs plan on doing with the class because frankly
most of the proclaimed "issues" with loremaster and the presumed changes to it (eg, RP cookies?) come across as bandaid solutions of larger issues that arelith has.

RP cookie wise?
secret language access and instant language access. people want to RP. languages gate that. language lessons dont count; they're hours of people copy-pasting (to no fault of their own) and helping you "grind" the ability to talk (read: roleplay.)

secret language access is the exception to this. it's meaningless to have secret warlock languages, handsigns, etc, when someone just snags it.

as for mechanical prowess?
yeah, 80 lore is strong. is it overpowered? maybe only in a few cases, and those cases dont take loremaster dips. a defiler with timestop isnt taking an LM dip. bg cavalier with 80 lore isnt taking an LM dip.

refunding? it makes arelith less of a timesink. playing a mundie means you get taxed for existing. i spend maybe 10k gold everytime i log into my weaponmaster. i dont grind. i dont like grinding and i dont have the time to run a shop. refunds mean i can have more fun.

[Shadowy Reality]

Why do people keep talking as if Loremaster is only just QoL and cookies, it is absolutely not.

It's a problem when your mundane weapon master can just -yoink another weaponmaster into the fight with 5 levels, whereas the Epic Conjurer had to spend 21 levels and 3 feats (one of them epic) to get access to the same thing. Same with -scry which can be a really strong tool to find someone, or spy on people.

The increased scroll CL also enables a mundane weaponmaster to actually dispel with a Mord scroll. That's right, Mord scrolls are good on their own, but a mundane weaponmaster loremaster has dispel chances on top.

It's not just QoL, there is actually mechanical implications to having all of these things packed into a 5 level class with no divine or arcane requirements at all.

The refund chances, extra lore, extra languages, extra ab and ac are really not the problem here, those are indeed mostly QoL and cookies, keep them all, the problem is what I mentioned above.

[-XXX-]

It's a problem when your mundane weapon master can just -yoink another weaponmaster into the fight with 5 levels, whereas the Epic Conjurer had to spend 21 levels and 3 feats (one of them epic) to get access to the same thing. Same with -scry which can be a really strong tool to find someone, or spy on people.

-yoink does not work in combat, so the above is fiction.

[Shadowy Reality]

It's a problem when your mundane weapon master can just -yoink another weaponmaster into the fight with 5 levels, whereas the Epic Conjurer had to spend 21 levels and 3 feats (one of them epic) to get access to the same thing. Same with -scry which can be a really strong tool to find someone, or spy on people.

-yoink does not work in combat, so the above is fiction.

What do you mean fiction, I didn't mention using it in the middle of PvP? I am having a standoff with people, I see tensions rising and PvP might be about to start and I can just -yoink someone.

It is also not that difficult to disengage for a few seconds, get out of combat and -yoink.

[Nurel]

as for mechanical prowess?
yeah, 80 lore is strong. is it overpowered? maybe only in a few cases, and those cases dont take loremaster dips. a defiler with timestop isnt taking an LM dip. bg cavalier with 80 lore isnt taking an LM dip.

Lore 50-80 is absolutely mandatory to those who wish to engage in PVP and not be terribly outclassed by everyone else who has high Lore.

Consequently, I think the biggest PVP edge of Loremaster comes from the Lore bonus moreso than Yoink and Scry, even though both these tools are extremely powerful in their own right

I think mundanes would be a lot more sceptical investing in LM if there was no free +10 Lore bonus.

As quoted, PCs don't explicitly need the LM class to hit 80 Lore, hell, some builds even get 80 Lore without even ESF Lore.. Though it takes a huge gear and feat investment to pull off. LM lets you circumvent the investment cheaply and efficiently

[LurkingShadow]

Why not just ax the language system?

Characters not understanding each other doesn't really enhance RP - it usually does the opposite.
The learning system is awkward and gave us mass language lessons.

It is part of the charm. Complex systems should not be streamlined out of the game to make things "Easier". This is what made a lot of gaming soulless and just "Live service".

[Ruzuke]

Why not just ax the language system?

Characters not understanding each other doesn't really enhance RP - it usually does the opposite.
The learning system is awkward and gave us mass language lessons.

It is part of the charm. Complex systems should not be streamlined out of the game to make things "Easier". This is what made a lot of gaming soulless and just "Live service".

I play video games for fun.

I have Rossetta Stone to learn 98 languages (never expires). Playing a game should be fun. I do not disagree with your statement fully however. If people want to communicate in a language everyone can understand there is common as well as undercommon. Not everyone needs to know every secret language or even most languages. There is a common trade tongue.

For XXX to me different languages enhances RP. If 3 fey are speaking their native tongue my character won't understand it. Aquatic Elves speaking their native tongue is something my character also will not understand. It enhances that the world is larger than Arelith. There are many different cultures and viewpoints that our characters do not know. For me it creates a more realistic world environment instead of one group think culture and behavior. For me it creates in game diversity.

[Nurel]

Well, language are and always have been cool to have on PWs. It feels good using them and watching them being used

I'd also like to point out that not all language lessons are copy+paste fests. I have participated in quite a few language lessons which were creatively conducted and were generally very fun. Of course, we never got the massive language gains you can get in large events and copypasta lessons, but it was all around a very nice RP experience.

Language lessons can be good or bad, but they are not a big problem imho. It takes a lot to learn a new language even if you attend lessons.

[Peacewhisper]

Things that make Loremaster too OP are:

• GSF/ESF Abilities; Casters generally have to spend 2-3 feats and have 21+ levels in a class to get these abilities, such as -yoink or -scry or -ward, but loremaster allows you to get them with just a single class feat. This is too little investment for such game changing abilities.

• AB/AC bonuses; The AB bonus is the same you get from 7 levels of weapon master, which requires an investment of six feats. Again, loremaster allows you to circumvent feat requirements for a powerful bonus. To anyone saying +1 AB is not that strong, we had to nerf Divine Champion's AB bonus they get during Divine Wrath, and that's not even up all the time. The AC bonus on top of that is just plain overkill. Why is the scroll reading class getting bonuses in combat for swinging a halberd or a scimitar? And how does this add to RP in any way? You can't even call this an "RP cookie" it's just a flat mechanical bonus that's never brought up IC.

• Lore Bonus; If we're going to let people use lore to cast level 9 spells from scrolls, we should at least force them to put +2 lore on every single piece of gear they have and spend a couple of feats for it. It needs to be a major investment with tradeoffs. There are +5 lore rings, and +3 lore helmets. Getting up to 50 lore is easy even without spending feats or having lore bonuses on most of your gear. Make people work for their Lore or play an actual caster if they want to cast level 9 spells.

• Refund Chance; A wizard has a limited number of spell slots. My spellsword can only cast 4-5 level 8 spells per rest and that's it. Loremasters are walking around with scrolls in stacks of 100 for Gate, Mord's, Time Stop, Word of Faith, Greater Restoration, etc. They already can cast powerful spells many more times than casters. Thanks to the refund chance they can use most of those scrolls more than once. This is really just salting the wounds of casters who are already far behind martials. "But scrolls are expensive!" That's kind of the only justification for letting martials cast level 9 spells in the first place, and we basically removed it.

• CL Bonus; Letting martials cast any spells from scrolls is overpowered enough even without this. Needs to go. Scrolls should never be as good as spells cast by a dedicated epic wizard/cleric with the right spell foci.

• Secret of Gathering; The only "RP" I've seen coming from this is groups with a designated miner circle grinding adamantine. This is just a financial incentive to take the class, and even more tempting for martials who will need to be fully decked out in adamantine.

[hi chat]

people who say -yoink on a loremaster is overpowered b/c they can pull people into a tense situation to stack their numbers are being pretty hyperbolic; portal lenses & wisp bottles will, 90% of the time, allow the same results. (instantly teleporting to a fight)

-scry and -ward are quite strong abilities to possess but they're not gamebreaking, imo. i think -ward gives useful ability in its ability to keep people from lens-leaving RP situations. i don't really have any strong opinions on -scry or the gathering secret.

if anything is too powerful about LM it's probably the synergy it has with bless weapon and barkskin. the refunds are basically just QOL, and the extra AB/AC is downplayed by the fact LM isn't a tumble class or has full BAB scaling.

loremaster is generally speaking, still pretty balanced. i'd say the most prevalant factor towards there being so many martial loremasters is still the fact that 25/5 got nerfed - there's no reason to play 25/5 over LM/WM, now!

[Peacewhisper]

people who say -yoink on a loremaster is overpowered b/c they can pull people into a tense situation to stack their numbers are being pretty hyperbolic; portal lenses & wisp bottles will, 90% of the time, allow the same results. (instantly teleporting to a fight)

-scry and -ward are quite strong abilities to possess but they're not gamebreaking, imo. i think -ward gives useful ability in its ability to keep people from lens-leaving RP situations. i don't really have any strong opinions on -scry or the gathering secret.

if anything is too powerful about LM it's probably the synergy it has with bless weapon and barkskin. the refunds are basically just QOL, and the extra AB/AC is downplayed by the fact LM isn't a tumble class or has full BAB scaling.

loremaster is generally speaking, still pretty balanced. i'd say the most prevalant factor towards there being so many martial loremasters is still the fact that 25/5 got nerfed - there's no reason to play 25/5 over LM/WM, now!

Portal lenses and wisp bottles are expensive, and portal lenses can only take you to specific destinations. You can't portal lens onto a ship or into a locked quarter, for example. Scry is incredibly powerful for PVP reasons.

Not being a tumble class does hurt it a little but the AC bonus helps to mitigate this, and the BAB scaling does not matter since everyone takes it in epic levels.

It's really not balanced, you could take away all but one of the many things I listed in my last post and people would overwhelmingly still take it just for the mechanics. If it only had the AB/AC bonus, people would take it. If it only had the refund chance or the CL bonus, people would take it. If it only had the secret of gathering, people would take it. People would take it just for -scry or -yoink or -ward. The fact that it gets ALL of this stuff makes it overwhelmingly the best class you can dip even without the tumble, because the CL bonuses and +1 AC will easily compensate for that.

[Nurel]

people who say -yoink on a loremaster is overpowered b/c they can pull people into a tense situation to stack their numbers are being pretty hyperbolic; portal lenses & wisp bottles will, 90% of the time, allow the same results. (instantly teleporting to a fight)

-scry and -ward are quite strong abilities to possess but they're not gamebreaking, imo. i think -ward gives useful ability in its ability to keep people from lens-leaving RP situations. i don't really have any strong opinions on -scry or the gathering secret.

if anything is too powerful about LM it's probably the synergy it has with bless weapon and barkskin. the refunds are basically just QOL, and the extra AB/AC is downplayed by the fact LM isn't a tumble class or has full BAB scaling.

loremaster is generally speaking, still pretty balanced. i'd say the most prevalant factor towards there being so many martial loremasters is still the fact that 25/5 got nerfed - there's no reason to play 25/5 over LM/WM, now!

I kinda agree with this post. Seriously, remove the 10 free Lore from it and people will spec out of it is my take. I think if you remove the Lore bonus its gonna be more or less a niche class for people who wish to play polyglot, and for people who wish to Yoink and scry without being a caster type character.

[Shadowy Reality]

people who say -yoink on a loremaster is overpowered b/c they can pull people into a tense situation to stack their numbers are being pretty hyperbolic; portal lenses & wisp bottles will, 90% of the time, allow the same results. (instantly teleporting to a fight)

You are comparing someone simply -yoinking someone in, instantly, to someone sending a Wisp to another PC and that other PC lensing into the encounter?

The moment you send the Wisp the other person can go ahead and attack, whoever you sent the Wisp to still has to lens in, and if you are in a remote area they will never get there on time. The situations are not even remotely close to being similar.

[Nurel]

Yoink is crazy strong for many reasons, but dipping 5 full class levels in order to get it is not unbalanced, imo.

[Shadowy Reality]

Yoink is crazy strong for many reasons, but dipping 5 full class levels in order to get it is not unbalanced, imo.

You are entirely right, no single Loremaster cookie is in itself gamebreaking. The issue is all of them, together, packed together in 5 levels, it adds up a lot.
Have a look at other 5 level classes, they don't come nowhere close, Invisible Blade for instance.

[Peacewhisper]

Yoink is crazy strong for many reasons, but dipping 5 full class levels in order to get it is not unbalanced, imo.

5 class levels is not much of an investment. 16 int and skill focus lore are easy to pick up for the builds that make the most of loremaster. It also gets all of its goodies from class feats given at every level, as opposed to something like paladin or blackguard that actually has to spend general feats to get their divine might/shield and then have 17-21 levels for divine synergy. Shadow dancer needs 11 levels to unlock its main class feature.

Lets compare the investments to unlock scry:

Loremaster
1 general feat
16 intelligence
4 class levels

Wizard/Cleric/Druid/etc.
3 general feats in what is mechanically the worst spell focus, one of those being an epic feat
19 intelligence/wisdom/charisma
21 class levels

It is abundantly clear that Loremaster is not balanced, and gives way too much for too little investment. You could cut the number of secrets it learns in half, and it would still be overpowered.

Yoink is crazy strong for many reasons, but dipping 5 full class levels in order to get it is not unbalanced, imo.

You are entirely right, no single Loremaster cookie is in itself gamebreaking. The issue is all of them, together, packed together in 5 levels, it adds up a lot.
Have a look at other 5 level classes, they don't come nowhere close, Invisible Blade for instance.

I'd say being able to have -scry on a weapon master is pretty game breaking but otherwise I agree.