Player Count Conclusions

[Diegovog]

I love the player count topic, so much great data about the server's meta and what's fun to play.

What sort of interesting conclusions can we draw from the latest?
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5956&start=25

I'll start:

• There are more assassins (dm approval locked) in the server than sorcerers
• 1/5 of the population is loremaster (such scholars!)
• 1/4 of the population is rogue in some level (I'm not using thieves' cant anymore)
• Are rangers 7.7% huge dip inflating numbers because of wizard's multiclass?
• Feel bad for that one guy playing shifter

[MissEvelyn]

If you zoom in close and look at Weapon Master, you'll see that one person with over 15 levels in it, commited to being the only Weapon Grandmaster on Arelith
This character should, when retiring, become a Weapon Master trainer NPC

[satan]

• Is liberator really that bad?
• Shifter needs love or a respectful burial
  -is divine champion extraneous?
  -loremaster is cheesy. The numbers don't lie.
  -only 8 people have used a minor on grodds? Huh
  -the great ogre migration is in full swing.

[Darkstorn42]

Dirgesinger is not as popular as I would have expected with how popular bard is.

And Arelith bless the last two dragon PCs.

[-XXX-]

Dirgesinger is not as popular as I would have expected with how popular bard is.

I think it's because Dirgesinger is basically a bard subclass that:

• has only a handful good builds that are all tied to bard
• makes the bard build worse at bard things
• steers a solid melee centric build toward the summoner(1) niche

---

(1) which simultaneously (a)makes the build worse at PvP and (b)introduces a degree of uncertainty as summons keep getting periodically nerfed

[Richrd]

I wonder what the team's thoughts are on the extreme representation of loremasters.

3rd most represented class. Big LMAO.

[Peacewhisper]

I wonder what the team's thoughts are on the extreme representation of loremasters.

3rd most represented class. Big LMAO.

I think Loremaster was a mistake and should be removed for the sake of balance.

[AddledPunster]

As much as I enjoyed playing my Wizard/Loremaster, it's hard to ignore that very few people are picking the class with the flavour in mind. It's a shame, because the flavour has a lot of potential for roleplay on the server if every third person wasn't already a Loremaster.

[Peacewhisper]

As much as I enjoyed playing my Wizard/Loremaster, it's hard to ignore that very few people are picking the class with the flavour in mind. It's a shame, because the flavour has a lot of potential for roleplay on the server if every third person wasn't already a Loremaster.

How to fix Loremaster:

Prereq. Ability to cast 9th level Arcane spells

There you go. Force people to have 17-18 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer to pick Loremaster. Also probably half the lore skill of anyone who doesn't have the majority of their levels in wizard/sorc. And make wizard/sorc the only two classes to get lore as a class skill. Problem solved. Now wizard/sorc are good again and cleric was good enough it didn't need time stop since it has word of faith.

[ltlukoziuz]

As much as I enjoyed playing my Wizard/Loremaster, it's hard to ignore that very few people are picking the class with the flavour in mind. It's a shame, because the flavour has a lot of potential for roleplay on the server if every third person wasn't already a Loremaster.

How to fix Loremaster:

Prereq. Ability to cast 9th level Arcane spells

There you go. Force people to have 17-18 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer to pick Loremaster. Also probably half the lore skill of anyone who doesn't have the majority of their levels in wizard/sorc. And make wizard/sorc the only two classes to get lore as a class skill. Problem solved. Now wizard/sorc are good again and cleric was good enough it didn't need time stop since it has word of faith.

The problem is, Loremaster was planned exactly to be the "mundie" option for a dip if you needed to rely on items. For Wizards/Sorcs, it's basically doubling down. Only problem is that it's way too convenient.

[Kythana]

loremaster should have a requirement on the greater secrets, but everything else about the class is fine.

it's a good class, and can be used to supplement builds, but it's more often than not shoehorned into things that don't need it for qol + cookies, and would be better with another option instead

[Security_Blanket]

It should be stretched out to ten levels, it's just way too much for 5 levels.

[Kythana]

It should be stretched out to ten levels, it's just way too much for 5 levels.

this kills the class, and makes it even worse for spellcasters

it's only way too much for 5 levels when it gives you access to ESF features. disregarding those, the class is fine

[Spriggan Bride]

I would be ok with some more limitations than there are (maybe spell focus required to get the ESF equivalent secrets) but loremaster is very much a bard-friendly class and that ought to stay. Bard/LM is hardly overpowered except as an RP bag of tricks.

[Security_Blanket]

this kills the class, and makes it even worse for spellcasters

I was basically thinking of turning from a dip into an actual class. I didn't mean stretching it out exactly as is to ten levels, add a couple more things in there and make it more thematic. There's no reason that a 3-5 Loremaster dip couldn't still be useful for those that wanted it. Five levels is only two levels more than what's required to dip, it's a dip class.

[magistrasa]

[Kenji]

• nerf LM
• finish monk overhaul
• buff liberator (big one)
• buff div champ (medium one)
• buff invokers (medium one)
• buff vigilante (small one)
• buff ranger (small one)
• buff cav (small one) / rework mount system
• give more flavor to druid
• give more flavor to sorcerer
• give more flavor to favored soul
• rework shaman
• rework rdd
• rework sd

[Crookedblossom]

I think this thread is a really weird criticism, regarding loremasters.

I wonder what the team's thoughts are on the extreme representation of loremasters.

3rd most represented class. Big LMAO.

I think Loremaster was a mistake and should be removed for the sake of balance.

There is nothing that the class gives you that disrupts the balance of the game. Its meant to be a dip, as evidenced by why you can only take 5 levels in it. This is done for the same reason people dip into rogue, or bard, or however many levels in fighter.

As much as I enjoyed playing my Wizard/Loremaster, it's hard to ignore that very few people are picking the class with the flavour in mind. It's a shame, because the flavour has a lot of potential for roleplay on the server if every third person wasn't already a Loremaster.

I don't think this is a fair criticism because we don't know whats on people's character sheets. You don't know how someone is implementing loremaster into their concept. With the various secrets you can take, your character can roleplay as a well-learned botanist, a cartographer, someone who has studied the blade, a magician, or any variety of flavor the various secrets give. Do people take the quality of life ones like teleport and yoink? Sure. Do people utilize those levels to enhance their concept? Absolutely.

As much as I enjoyed playing my Wizard/Loremaster, it's hard to ignore that very few people are picking the class with the flavour in mind. It's a shame, because the flavour has a lot of potential for roleplay on the server if every third person wasn't already a Loremaster.

How to fix Loremaster:

Prereq. Ability to cast 9th level Arcane spells

There you go. Force people to have 17-18 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer to pick Loremaster. Also probably half the lore skill of anyone who doesn't have the majority of their levels in wizard/sorc. And make wizard/sorc the only two classes to get lore as a class skill. Problem solved. Now wizard/sorc are good again and cleric was good enough it didn't need time stop since it has word of faith.

The problem is, Loremaster was planned exactly to be the "mundie" option for a dip if you needed to rely on items. For Wizards/Sorcs, it's basically doubling down. Only problem is that it's way too convenient.

Too convenient is a weird critique. Its not as though mundanes are getting these abilities at no cost. It requires feat and level investment, and this is not always optimal. They're choosing to, for one reason or another.

Anyway, I don't think every character with 3 to 5 levels in loremaster is meant to RP as a sagely old wizard surrounded by dusty tomes. Its weird to want to restrict it to that. The vibes I get from this thread are a bit weird, in that they seem to critique perceived roleplay, convenience for non-spellcasters and the observation that "there are a lot, so that must mean we need to get rid of it."

I'm fine with talking about how to improve the class or understanding how it functions in builds, but the critiques I've seen here thusfar ain't it.

[Diegovog]

• buff cav (small one) / rework mount system

Cavaliers at 2.3% is pretty sad. There is so much potential with the thematic of being a cavalier, possibility to customize mount with armor and different saddles for different bonuses and situations. I like the idea of progress and slow upgrades to the mount.
I just have no idea how to make it a viable/fun because of how heavily we rely on dungeons and cities.
We also had problems with cavaliers one-shooting people in pvp. Maybe adding a jousting system for tournaments. Personally I'd give cavaliers huge ab/damage but 1APR and removing critical to make them attack, kite, attack, kite. And add some cool defensive abilities to remove debuffs and mitigate damage while not attacking.

[Hragli]

Sorc numbers are truly sad, and indicative that the class is outshined from every direction. That's really a shame. It is a core class and classic D&D thematic concept. Paladins get oaths, maybe Sorcs get bloodline and metamagic? Its not 3e, but neither are oaths. They need some love in a bad way.

[Darkstorn42]

• nerf LM
• finish monk overhaul
• buff liberator (big one)
• buff div champ (medium one)
• buff invokers (medium one)
• buff vigilante (small one)
• buff ranger (small one)
• buff cav (small one) / rework mount system
• give more flavor to druid
• give more flavor to sorcerer
• give more flavor to favored soul
• rework shaman
• rework rdd
• rework sd

I'm surprised IB isn't on that list. The only good things about it are the bleed, good BAB, disc. Everything else is bad. Like really bad.
Whole round action to strip 4 spells? Worse than Greater Breach.
Whole round action to apply 2 bleed stacks and maybe slow? Worse than Dirty fighting, its prereq.
Eviscerate is 5 damage, literally 5. I am not exaggerating or being hyperbolic.
No leaning into the prereq of dirty fighting?
A lot has evolved over time with instant attacks and new damage types and it seems like IB has not been updated to reflect any of those changes.
/rant off

P.S. I love these stats break downs!

[Ork]

The greatest irony I've ever seen is discussions of loremaster being returned to 10 class levels. That's genuinely funny.

[ltlukoziuz]

Knowing that there are 13 vampire "slots" to be active at once, does that mean there's space for 5 more?

[Rubricae]

• Feel bad for that one guy playing shifter

I'M
STILL
STANDING
FOUR MONTHS IN A ROW AND GOING STRONG

BORN TO SHIFT
WORLD IS A VAMPIRE
사랑해요 Deny All PRCs 2003
I am Construct Shape man
853,614,730,942 DEAD BUILD ADVISORS

[Rubricae]

• nerf LM
• finish monk overhaul
• buff liberator (big one)
• buff div champ (medium one)
• buff invokers (medium one)
• buff vigilante (small one)
• buff ranger (small one)
• buff cav (small one) / rework mount system
• give more flavor to druid
• give more flavor to sorcerer
• give more flavor to favored soul
• rework shaman
• rework rdd
• rework sd

wait fvs is fine what
finishing liberator should be at the top of that
loremaster is fine, just because it's popular doesnt mean it needs to be killed
or, that it's good

editing to add to avoid a triple post, to post on behalf of someone that doesn't use the forums but i agree with their phrasing of a shared sentiment between the two of us. it is as follows.

if i was going to post i would explain that the loremaster question is basically indicative of arelith's bigger problems and i thought about this for a minute wondering if i was charlie with a corkboard but im not
loremaster offers QoL in these ways:

• languages

• UMD

• wand/scroll refund

• appraise

why are these indicative of larger arelith issues?
take languages for example.

people want to RP. that is the point of the server. languages are a direct barrier to that. they actually add very little to the server in terms of RP. they are mostly used to gatekeep RP.
case and point: faction learning a language such as orc, goblin, gnoll or kenku so that "people dont spy on them."
isn't that really just anti-RP behavior? it isnt really intrigue RP, because there's no two-way interaction there; the end result is:
"they r speaking a language i don't know. i walk away."
time and time again languages are just used to gatekeep RP and a hallmark of a good player in an RP scene is someone who actively works around the language system so that other people can RP with them. learning undercommon / xanalress is basically like taking a feat on a new character, a barrier for entry yes but also a means to either intentionally or unintentionally gatekeep potential RP. it doesn't really add anything to my RP. most language lessons are clunky and awkward, either resulting in a lot of people going AFK as they actively increase their language % or making non-effort posts, regardless of if the host is putting in the work or not.
this is something i do my best at attempting.

people are also misidentifying the purpose of loremaster. loremaster is not meant for wizards. you're missing the point entirely if you think LM is for casters at all. a good example of that would be wands.
casters don't need wand access from UMD. they can use wands from whatever category of magic they know.
fvs & cleric gets divine wands
wiz & sorc get arcane
dont need UMD.
wand / scroll refund & appraise go in tandem

loremaster through these QoLs and a few others(appraise[again] for more money, refund changes, etc) also means that there is less grinding required as opposed to going without it. meaning you will have more time to actually roleplay instead of purely dedicating part of your precious time to grinding out a dungeon, a writ, etc.
arelith as a whole does not respect your time as well as it should. it's expensive to play.
on my drow i absolutely prefer 20/7/3 for damage and theme and Cool Guy factor, but i'm a massive idiot if i don't do WM LM.
why?
simple reason of my TIME (MY FINITE RESOURCE BEFORE I AM DEAD FOREVER) versus WHAT I CAN DO ON THE SERVER.

there's more to be said but this is the gist of it all, i think. the more core issues with the 'nerf LM' statements.