Barbarian v2.0: "Make you a sword of me!"

[RockandRollOutlaw]

The extra HP goes down really fast due to having no AC, all attacks will be hits.

This is why I think characters with a majority of barbarian levels should be immune to critical hits while raging.

[Jagel]

Or gain a immunity to slashing/piercing/bludg scaling with rage lvl to a max of say 50% ^^.

[miesny_jez]

I already presented calculations on this 50% flat immune would be total overkill considering that immunitites stack + Barbarian has innate flat DR

20%... absolute max 25% immunity if going with this route:

I initially thought of 5% immunity for each con modifier after 5, which would be helpful on a barbarian as it synergies well with damage reduction;

Hmm this could be indeed better then flat out AC, maybe even put it on a limit: works only when Raging + no Shield or ranged weapon is equipped.

Though I am a bit concerned with numbers on this. We could reasonably assume that a Barbarian char could have a CON of: 22 (Base) + 12(enchanted) = 34 with modifier of +12 in this case.

So:
12 - 5 = 7 *5% = 35 % flat out damage immunity.
Adding to that the damage reduction
EDR3 + Barbarian lvl 16 - 27 = 9 + (2-6) = 11 - 15

As the immunities stack with other item-based immunitites we could get the following:
Slashing (armor) 10% + 35 % = 45%
Bludgeoing (Helmet) 10% +35% = 45%
Piercing (no shield used) = 35%

Simulated damage:
Avg hit received: 25 damage
Avg crit: 70

What does it mean for our Barbarian:
Against average hits he would receive:
25 - 11.25 (immunity 45%) = 13.75 - DR(11-15) = 2.75@DR11 to -1.25@DR15

Against average crits:
70 - 31.5 = 38.5 - DR(11-15) = 27.5@DR11to 23.5@DR15

Considering that a Barbarian would have (with current idea) Vampiric regeneration.. he would be impossible to kill in melee with current idea of 5% immunity for each con modifier after 5, for an average Arelith mob

I guess the idea of 5% immu would have to be toned down to cap at absolute max of 20%.

On two handed weapons, and dual-wielding because that's feat (and potentially ability point) expensive. IMO, as hard as it is for a fighter to give up his shield, it should be just as hard for a barbarian to want a shield. Additional biteback damage (1.5) and double (?) vamperic regen for dual wielding/two-handers?

Double Vamp Regen when dual-wielding would mean it could fire 2 times more per ropund then for Two-handed weapons making it the most optimal fighting style for any Barbarian.

Therefore if considering this.. the vamp regen would have to be upped ONLY for Two-handed weapons to compensate for this.

After seeing it the Barbarian update in action (and testing it personally) I still think it is not enough offense-focused.

For me it doesn't make a Barbarian a force to fear when he is raging.
I like the speed increase, but temporary hp, vamp regen.. and especially biteback I don't like them.

[miesny_jez]

If suggestions or ideas can still be discussed I would propose something like this for a Barbarian:

When a Barbarian is raging he gets the following:

- Movement speed increase +50% (as currently)
- Damage Immunity 5(Rage4) - 20(Rage6) %, depending on the Rage level
- Will Save bonus (as currently)

Now depending on the type of weapons he has when he starts raging he would get the temporary enchants:

- Two-Hander = Dev Crit
- 1hander + Shield = AC bonus(scaling) + Vamp Regen
- dual-wielding = Flat +AB/Damage increase(scaling) + Spell Resistance(scaling)
- Unarmed (YES please!) = Ki Strike (1-5), +AB/Damage increase, Size change: Large (for easier knockdowns)

Then tie the length of Rage and its cooldown period with relative barbarian levels to the total amount of char levels (to disallow builds like Barb3 for just Dev Crit)

As for the epic rages.. Terryfing is fine, Thundering would have to be exchanged into something more useful.. hmm Banishment+Wing buffet on cast maybe ?

[Thake]

My perception of a rage is something that builds up. It's not just: Switch on, switch off.

So, I'd like it to be dynamic, building up and having it maintained while in combat.. letting it decease if out of combat.

Consecutive hits on a target should net additive boni like stacking AB (maybe dicreasing AC), though at the same time building up DR or DI as the barbarian builds up his rage, ignoring pain while being in combat.
Also, significant power spikes depending on missing HP.. "You besting me? YOU BESTING THA BEAST?!? YOU CAN DEFEAT ME BUT I'LL TAKE YOU WITH ME!!! RAAAAGH!!!" *tilt*

[Mithreas]

Hm.

Scaling the HP buff to your barbarian levels is something I've been meaning to do (so a barb 3 / other 3 will only get half the boost). Barb dip mixes will still get a small HP boost and the speed buff, which seems like the right balance.

I really really really (really) don't want to make the biteback into magic damage. It just feels all wrong. But I may ramp it up a chunk (N * rage level) because it's a cool feature and should be scarier.

DI is right out - it'll break FL.

Vamp regen was never intended to be more than just a cookie thrown on top, since we all know it's unreliable. I could turn it into a damage bonus instead, and perhaps scale the bonus up significantly for two-handers.

[Urch]

What about some kind of totem or elemental affinity that each barbarian picks at character creation (default fire or something). That damage type is then used as the biteback and weapon damage.
eg. fire, electrical, cold, acid, and maybe sonic/negative/positive energy for minor/medium awards.

Varies it up a bit giving slightly more customisable rages for each barbarian.

[Green2Bee]

I really really really (really) don't want to make the biteback into magic damage. It just feels all wrong.

What about some kind of totem or elemental affinity that each barbarian picks at character creation (default fire or something). That damage type is then used as the biteback and weapon damage. eg. fire, electrical, cold, acid, and maybe sonic/negative/positive energy

I personally don't like MAGICAL damage for barbarians either, but these all sound kinda cool. Maybe it can be like warlock powers where you just go into the crafting menu and you can unlock certain damage type as you level... Like Level 1-10 Barbarian, Physical. Level 11-20 Barbarian.... Uh... Something else. Level 21-30 Barbarian, some other something else.

Thoughts?

[Cortex]

Hm.

Scaling the HP buff to your barbarian levels is something I've been meaning to do (so a barb 3 / other 3 will only get half the boost). Barb dip mixes will still get a small HP boost and the speed buff, which seems like the right balance.

I really really really (really) don't want to make the biteback into magic damage. It just feels all wrong. But I may ramp it up a chunk (N * rage level) because it's a cool feature and should be scarier.

DI is right out - it'll break FL.

Vamp regen was never intended to be more than just a cookie thrown on top, since we all know it's unreliable. I could turn it into a damage bonus instead, and perhaps scale the bonus up significantly for two-handers.

mith r u tryin to make me play a barbarian

cuz

cuz that might work

[Hunter548]

Hm.

Scaling the HP buff to your barbarian levels is something I've been meaning to do (so a barb 3 / other 3 will only get half the boost). Barb dip mixes will still get a small HP boost and the speed buff, which seems like the right balance.

I really really really (really) don't want to make the biteback into magic damage. It just feels all wrong. But I may ramp it up a chunk (N * rage level) because it's a cool feature and should be scarier.

DI is right out - it'll break FL.

Vamp regen was never intended to be more than just a cookie thrown on top, since we all know it's unreliable. I could turn it into a damage bonus instead, and perhaps scale the bonus up significantly for two-handers.

Exchanging Vamp Regen for a damage boost and boost it on two handed weapons is probably needed. Presently, even when optimizing for the damage shield, barbarians are outdamaged by a large margin by similar builds pretty much across the board. Not to mention that it'll help counter-act the damage shield encouraging very passive play on a barbarian's part.

[Nitro]

So... Do these new barbarian damage buffs apply to thrown weapons while raging? Because that'd be a pretty cool throwing weapon barbarian if you skip the shield.

[Cortex]

st noting here, after playing(and still playing) a 2h barbarian, I still see no reason to go 2h over 1h, otherwise, the buffs are working great thus far.

As for 1h vs 2h, I'm told that 2h bonus damage scales to 2d10 or so, but I don't know 1h scaling. However, between the two, 1h is inherently better regardless. While I'm going off an unknown tangent, since there are no numbers available unless I grind two different epic barbarians, how about scaling damage for 2h, while 1h doesn't has any scaling? Such as +2 per rage level, and maybe higher as level progresses, to offer more building options(less or more barbarian).

For reference on damage scaling suggested(each rage level is obtained every 4 levels of barbarian):

Level 1: 2
Level 4: 4
Level 8: 6 (free power attack)
Level 12: 8
Level 16: 10 (free improved power attack)
Level 20: 12
Level 24(epic): 14
Level 28(pure barbarian aka why would u ever do this): 16

That way, 1h would be sacrificing damage for survivability(AC+other barb perks), while 2h would be sacrificing AC for tons of damage.

[Mithreas]

Static damage bonuses can't go over +10. +2d12 is the highest damage bonus in the 2da file.

[Cortex]

What about an AB bonus to 2h along with damage then? Not much, but enough to make 2h worthwhile.

[Flameborn]

I am unsure of the 2h difference from 1h. My understanding was that its +3 damage over 1h, which is ok, if gently underwhelming.

My last remaining issue is how slowly you gain rage levels, especially in epic levels, which require you to take mighty and thundering rage (both totally useless feats) to increase it.

Im not sure about the 1h and 2h thing, but a shield wouldnt raise my ac to anything useful no matter what.

[Cortex]

If built properly, a barbarian can get very decent AC.

[Flameborn]

But it shouldnt need ac. Theres a DOZEN other classes that can get super high ac, its boring, its overdone. Barb should be the one melee class that can hold its own without relying on AC.

Right now, its almost there, it might even BE there. I need to test it more before I really know for sure against the other melee builds.

[Shadowy Reality]

After the last changes the Barbarian seems fine. Just spot on.

If anything I'd just ask for Rage to be a command -rage so it's applied instantly. It's the only thing that can screw you in pvp situations, but then again, you can say the same of Divine Might/Shield feats.

[DestroyerOTN]

If built properly, a barbarian can get very decent AC.

Yes, but 'why'.

30 Damage biteback + any DPS you may be dealing, topping off your HP which hits upwards of 1000 should never 'need' AC, and should statistically be hindered by it.

[Tyrantos]

What is the latest build of Barbarian? How does thew rage scale now?

[msterswrdsmn]

I do have to ask; all of the new barb changes revolve around rage and CON, it seems.

That said, is there any point in taking the tribesman path at all, seeing as it gives up rage for 2 xp-reducing henchmen?

[Nitro]

The henchmen are actually fairly strong and regenerate, which means that they can give you a lot of staying power for solo adventures or when the party lacks a frontline.

[Ork]

Can we get a concise description of the changes to rage on the wiki site? Currently I am way confused on what is and isn't a part of the barbarian's ability.

[Shadowy Reality]

It's by the Update Thread, I tried to change the wki but it didn't let me.

Code: Select all

* gives you a -2 penalty to AC
* increases your movement rate by 50%
* gives you a damage shield effect, hurting anyone who hits you.  Damage is 3x your rage level + your con bonus
* applies damage to your main hand weapon based on your rage level (wielding a two handed weapon or nothing in your offhand raises your bonus level by 3).
* boosts your will save by your rage level + your con bonus
* gives temp HP = 50% of maximum HP, scaled by barb levels / hit dice
* duration is changed to 2d4 + con mod rounds.

This replaces the default Barbarian Rage, ie. you not longer get a bonus to Str not Con.
Your Rage Level is defined by the number of Rage feats you have. For example, a Barbarian level 15 would have Rage Level 5 (Barbarian Rage 1-4, Greater Rage 1). Epic Rage Feats (Terrifying Rage, Mighty Rage, Thundering Rage) also increase the Rage Level by 1.

[Ork]

Thank you! Max rage level is 8 & does terrifying rage still apply as normal? (will save vs fear)