Barbarian v2.0: "Make you a sword of me!"

[Seven Sons of Sin]

*Brownie points for who gets the reference.

Preface,

Mithreas said,

I won't deny that barbarians could use some love.

That said, barbarians vs fighters is strength and toughness vs skill. So AB and AC (hitting and not being hit) are fighter competencies, while barbarians focus on doing a lot of damage when they hit and being able to take hits . I'm not going to give barbarians AB boosts, therefore.

Switching the CON bonus to temp HP is probably a good call, though. If I ever make regeneration an option on the server (it's not currently for lag related reasons, but we may have more freedom there now) then barbarians are the class that would get it.

This will be my formal design opinion of how barbarians need to be revitalized to stand toe-to-toe as a credible melee/mundane option for players. Because right now, it is outmatched in every single "category" of mechanics, besides flat HP totals and (maybe) Damage Reduction. You can debate how important - or fun - the former is.

This is the current Arelith barbarian. Only Arelith-alteration is the Tribesmen path, but I won't go there.

I ranted about "dead levels" in another thread, so I won't go full-blown here, but my main gripe with the way barbarian is set up, specifically its level 2 to 11 range; wherein it does not get anything new and has extremely uninteresting scale, and out of those 9 levels, there are 4 dead levels.

In sticking with how Mithreas has hinted at how barbarians should work, I'll try to keep a balance between roleplay/mechanics, but largely this mechanics focused.

1. Remove lawful alignment restriction

I won't give you my five paragraph rant about the innate colonial undertones of the entire existence of the class, but I will point out this-

Barbarians are brave, even reckless warriors, and their great strength and heartiness makes them well suited for adventure. Barbarians scornfully reject the fighter traditions of arms training and discipline, instead tapping into a powerful rage that makes them stronger, tougher, and better able to withstand attacks.

This is from the NWN wiki, and since this is NWN, I do not find any particular phrase or sentence that would strictly, absolutely outright ban the lawful alignment.

I think allowing lawful barbarians would not only increase diversity of players options, it will make the barbarian likely more common, and increase the way you can insert barbarian roleplay into other categories of roleplay. And in no way, shape or form, will this be as unbalancing as making the bard lawful. No way.

2. Free Feats

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'd give Barbarians the Toughness feat for free. Somewhere between levels 2 and 11. I would also give them Epic Toughness at level 21. If barbarians are about "taking hits", there needs to be more evidence for this than a d12 hit die.

If barbarians have a "sixth sense", I don't think uncanny dodge is enough. I'd give them Dodge, and even Mobility, for free also.

3. Class abilities, sooner and more

Rage progression is lackluster in comparison to another comparable melee build that relies on activated abilities - paladin. Paladins' Divine Might/Shield scales off of CHA modifier, and at a significant rate of 3 + CHA modifier per day.

Barbarians get +1x per every 4 levels (disclaimer: this is awful). So, either give barbarians some sort of usage of Rage that's based off of their CON stat, or increasing the usage of Rage scaling (to something like +1x per 2 levels).

In addition, damage reduction is great. Defining thing of a barbarian. But you don't get it until level 11, and even then, a DR of 1/- when equivalent builds are unlocking potentially 5 attacks per round, is extremely lackluster.
So, either bring damage reduction down to somewhere in that level 2 to 11 range, or, start us off at DR 2/-, or even higher.

4. Something new, something "more" than just rage

Redesigning how Rage works has been done to death, and I don't have any new suggestions for it. I think, however, barbarians need to have a new defining ability that makes them stand a part from fighter.

In lieu of the new fighter mechanics, I think it would be easier to capitalize on Mithreas "take more hits" than "do more damage."

Thus, either give barbarians some form of regeneration, or, have scaling elemental/physical damage immunities.

~
I apologize for this not being "roleplay based" but I think the barbarian has as many interpretations of how to be played as a fighter does. Thus, I'd find it difficult to make a roleplay argument that doesn't have any sort of universality to it.

[msterswrdsmn]

The lawful ban probably has less to do with any sort of wordage in a manual/book and more the context the word "barbarian" is used (ie: a dirty, uncivilized brute).

As for suggestions...more or less from what I just posted in the pure class topic?

-Improve rage
-Change the stat bonuses to ab/damage to fix the issue of hitting the +12 stat cap that cripples rage.
-Grant haste/regeneration while the rage is active.
-Fix thundering rage (static 20 fort dc)
-Extend the duration based on your CON modifier.

Cold DR would make sense, as most places on Arelith/associated with Barbs in general are colder areas. Toughness as a free feat is nice, but epic toughness after a while is a moot point since your probably gaining something like 15-16 hp per level with a decent CON.

Free improved unarmed fighting would be neat (drunken brawling!). Its hardly unbalancing, as your never going to outdo a monk, even with rage and full STR boosts. Free power attack, or somehow capitalizing on power attack as a barbarian, possibly?

Regeneration outside of combat would be nice, but that would play hell with the server performance.

Actually, making some sort of Barb. path would help with sorting out bonus feats.

Edit: Tweaking the drunken bonus might help. It starts at +2, then goes to +5, but murders your dex and AC and constantly, CONSTANTLY drops you out of combat and flatfoots you.

[IndifferentPerson]

There are so many things a barbarian can be, that a generic buffed barbarian buff along with different paths would be great. Tank focused, damage focused, mobility focused, etc.

[Mithreas]

I want to shift Rage away from stat boosts and make it more, well, interesting. Like granting Haste for the duration of the rage.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

Haste + Clarity (Or another similar mind-messing blocking effect?)
During Rage, the Barbarian becomes single-minded, pace quickening and mind oblivious to all else but his intended goal.

[msterswrdsmn]

^ You could probably tack on a will save or whatnot. That actually makes sense; its perfectly normal for soldiers/pilots/etc to be completely oblivious to someone shouting straight into their ear from less than a foot away due to tunnel visioning. Being oblivious to things that would normally freak you the hell out isn't uncommon. Probably would want to tack on a spot/listen penalty while raging, though.

I'd avoid a full blown immunity for balance purposes, but a bonus vs mind affecting stuff would be neat.

Sidenote; different barb paths with different rage effects? Yay or nay?

[IndifferentPerson]

Here are some mechanical ideas(disclaimer, balance not guaranteed):

Terrifying rage affects all characters regardless of level(there are counters to this regardless).

Juggernaught path: Increased DR, higher HP, free power attack/improved power attack pre-20, Terrifying Rage/Armor Skin/Epic DR/Epic Toughness/Epic Energy Resistances at 21

Fury path: Haste during rage(or double duration if it becomes the norm), free cleave/great cleave pre-21, Thundering Rage/Overwhelming Critical at 21.

Ravager path: Scaling movement speed bonus(akin to monk), dual wield(medium armor and below only), +dual wield feats with scaling, Epic Prowess/Epic Reflexes/Great Dexterity/Great Strength at 21.

I wonder, however, how viable more indepth and script heavy mechanics would be? Such as:

-For every kill in battle, the barbarian gets +1 AB(max of +5), vanishes when combat ends.
-For every hit sustained in battle, the barbarian gets +10 temporary HP(up to 5*level).
-For every round longer in battle, the barbarian gains +1 damage(max of +10), vanishes when combat ends.
-For every 10% HP missing, the barbarian gets scaling damage(1 damage every 5 levels, making it, for example, +20 damage at level 20 if 50% HP).

[Ork]

Haste + Clarity (Or another similar mind-messing blocking effect?)
During Rage, the Barbarian becomes single-minded, pace quickening and mind oblivious to all else but his intended goal.

If we're going that route, this has my vote.

[Morderon]

Don't have much time currently to put everything out there that I want but here goes what I can put down:

Barbarians, when compared to fighters, are unpredictable brutes. Strong. Angry. Furious. They don't avoid blows; they shrug them off. Unstoppable.. at least until their for is dead)

Their presence is intimidating (represented, a bit to late, by terrifying rage)

Some incarnations have warcries (though this would represent a bard/barbarian multiclass as far as NWN is concerned.. though the "warcries" offered by NWN is limited; but that may be more so a bard suggestion)

In some incarnations the rage is induced by chemicals. Which is an idea that could certainly be expanded on (to a point it already with the drunken barbarian system we have). Heh. Kinda gives me an idea of a witcher-like system for them where they can mix&match potions (or something) until they're overly "drunk". A tattoo-based system could work similarly.


I don't terribly like giving them regeneration. But that's because I find there's a better alternative: vampiric regeneration. 1) The barbarian still has to invest in strength to make use of it as they got to hit to make it to work. 2) A Barbarian that can no longer fight, or refuses to fight, should be a dead barbarian.

[RockandRollOutlaw]

What about if barbarian cannot die from hit point loss while under the effects of rage? Damage could still be added up (ie: -234/567) and If they are in negative hit points when the rage fades then they die.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Suggestions:

- A classic fantasy Barbarian to me is a "break-out" class. Place him in chains and he will eventually break those chains and escape; enspell him and his mind will rage and rage and slip free at the worse moment for Thulsa Doom.

- A classic fantasy Barbarian to me is a "Nemesis" class. Raise his ire and draw his attention and whilst he is wading through your minions towards ~you~ he is an all-but unstoppable juggernaut.

- A classic fantasy Barbarian to me is a "Monster-slayer" class. By turns a Barbarian is strongest when fighting hordes and is surrounded or stands toe-to-toe against a 'beast' sizes taller than he is.

[Hunter548]

Rage duration increase, and more rages/per rest are a good idea I think.

Replace Rage's bonuses with scaling temp HP/DR, and a scaling damage boost? Maybe give them Xd6 damage/five levels, akin to the fighter's enchantment bonuses?

[Scurvy Cur]

I'm not sure that clarity really needs to be the answer, as rage already includes a will save bonus, it's just not enough to make much difference. My suggestion would be to double the will save bonus from 2/3/4 to 4/6/8, depending on presence of rage/greater rage/mighty rage, thereby effectively giving the barbarian the will save progression of a high-will class while under the effects of rage (+12 at 20). This, plus a few will save feats and a little gear should make it possible for a barbarian to be fairly mind resilient without being mind immune, but only if they invest in it. I'd personally stay away from outright mind immunity, because mind spells already suffer from working nearly 100% against non-immune targets, and not at all against immune ones, and that falloff feels pretty sharp to me.

Regarding moving away from stat buffs, handled right, this would fix the biggest issues with the class.

Adding +4/6/8 damage (and going to +6/9/12 while wielding a two hander, to help 2 hander damage scale a bit better for barbs) and 3/4/5 extra HP per barb level would help a lot, and haste would be the cherry on top. Bump the AC penalty up to -4 or -6, to ensure the barb either loses 2 AC or has no AC change.

Additionally, disable spellcasting of any sort while raging to deny use of rage haste on TFs and fiendlocks. Rage should never be a thing you pop to throw down a ton of spells.

As a side note, it would be really cool (note that I said cool, not necessarily a good idea) if barbarians could, instead of x rages per day, get a rage as a toggled combat mode that could be active only for so many rounds per rest, distributable however they are needed. This would make rage a little more flexible, especially for the long series of short fights that tends to make up most dungeons/adventures on the server, and might improve PvE endurance some, to be on par with other mundanes. It would also give the barb a clickie to pay attention to, and might make the gameplay feel more engaged. You would probably have to build in a 1 minute cooldown to prevent the barb from finding it advantageous to toggle rage on and off for free bonus HP.

Regarding DR, I think it could probably be added earlier, but probably should not exceed what warlocks get, at 10/- DR for a level 28-30 barb, to leave DD the unquestioned king of flat damage reduction. Instead rely on rage adding tons of HP to add tankiness.

[iria_huntress]

In a server I used to play in, Barbarians could get totems that altered their rage. To get the totem, you had to speak to an elder barbarian NPC and answer questions about your personality, and that determined your totem. Death, boar, bear, wolf, etc. When the rage was triggered, there was a 5% chance you would transform into your totem with substantial bonuses geared towards whatever your totem was. Death was my favorite. Death armor and tensers transformation.

It gave barbarian more RP flavor. The transformation didn't grant any real bonuses. It was just nifty to see it happen. Eye of the tiger moments when you transformed...People could see your real spirit.

[Mithreas]

So reading this, I'm thinking of Rage switching out to replace all its existing effects with:
- Haste and -4 AC (to offset the +4 from Haste)
- Death Armour style biteback, with the damage scaling with barbarian level (i.e. at level 30, 30hp damage to attackers... or maybe something randomised but still scaling)
- +1 to Will saves for every X barbarian levels
- 100% Arcane Spell Failure
- +1 Vampiric Regen per 3 levels added to currently equipped weapon.

Then to make Rage unlimited uses per day, but with a cooldown of say 10 minutes.

[IndifferentPerson]

These effects will only apply during rage? Will there be other buffs outside rage?

[Mithreas]

At present, I'm thinking not - so most of the time, a barbarian is slightly weaker than a fighter of the same level, but she can step up her game to handle bosses etc in a way that leaves fighters in the dust.

[IndifferentPerson]

What of the vampiric regeneration thing? I don't understand it's usefulness when it only functions half the time(unless you found a way to fix it), maybe flat regeneration would be better?

[Mithreas]

Regen would be better, but vamp regen is more thematic, and even though it doesn't fire on every attack it'll still be a boon.

[IndifferentPerson]

Is the duration being changed? The base duration is 7+CON+(if greater rage)2, at, say, 8 mod, you'd have 17 rounds or one minute and forty two seconds, which MAY be too little if a long cooldown is placed, depending on the final stats given. And sorry if I'm being picky, it's just my favorite class and I'd like to know what's happening

Edit: On another note, perhaps give a big boon between 27-30, akin to warlock and (supposedly) ranger companions?

[Mithreas]

I will be looking at duration as well, to ensure that it'll last for a normal length encounter. Large boss fights might see it wear off as the barbarian tires, though.

[IndifferentPerson]

That sounds great, thanks for the quick replies.

New question: Is terrifying rage being changed to affect characters of the same level?

[Scurvy Cur]

So reading this, I'm thinking of Rage switching out to replace all its existing effects with:
- Haste and -4 AC (to offset the +4 from Haste)
- Death Armour style biteback, with the damage scaling with barbarian level (i.e. at level 30, 30hp damage to attackers... or maybe something randomised but still scaling)
- +1 to Will saves for every X barbarian levels
- 100% Arcane Spell Failure
- +1 Vampiric Regen per 3 levels added to currently equipped weapon.

Then to make Rage unlimited uses per day, but with a cooldown of say 10 minutes.

This would be pretty neat, no lie.

I'd also like to advocate a tweak to terrifying rage while we're here:

Here are some mechanical ideas(disclaimer, balance not guaranteed):

Terrifying rage affects all characters regardless of level(there are counters to this regardless).

This would be good to have happen, but with a few adjustments added.

First, either the effect should be tweaked, or the DC dropped to scale off of something not as heavily inflatable as a skill check. As it stands, it's pretty easy to pump the DC up to the mid 60s, which pretty much nobody is going to make. Scaling it off of 10 + 1/2 character hit dice + highest of either strength or con would bring the DC down into the mid 30s to low 40s, which is on par with a level 9 spell, or a level 30 monk stun. Alternatively, the effect could be toned down from a disable to a debuff.

Second, there are a few bugs in the effect that cause, amongst other things, fear immune characters to automatically fail the save, and to cause the best defense against it to be freedom of movement. From the Wiki:

The saving throw is versus fear, but the effect that gets applied is paralysis (so this feat causes no one to "flee" and affected creatures with four or fewer hit dice are subject to a coup de grâce).
The saving throw is bugged as it will cause those immune to fear to automatically fail the save (without a roll).

I would also take this as a chance to plug for other abilities that randomly fail against characters with equal or more levels to have that limitation removed in a similar fashion.

[Morderon]

So reading this, I'm thinking of Rage switching out to replace all its existing effects with:
- Haste and -4 AC (to offset the +4 from Haste)
- Death Armour style biteback, with the damage scaling with barbarian level (i.e. at level 30, 30hp damage to attackers... or maybe something randomised but still scaling)
- +1 to Will saves for every X barbarian levels
- 100% Arcane Spell Failure
- +1 Vampiric Regen per 3 levels added to currently equipped weapon.

Then to make Rage unlimited uses per day, but with a cooldown of say 10 minutes.

I like this.

An alternative, though not necessarily better as I see merit to the quoted, to the death armor would be a custom on hit when the barbarian attacks that does a small amount of damage in an AoE. Both represent the idea that it's foolish to be near the barbarian. But I feel the alternative works better with a wider variety of characters, such as disabling casters. Of course.. why shouldn't the barbarian have to put himself at risk to gain full benefit from rage.


Another is to consider at level 28 (or something..) the monster uncanny reflexes, or the dwarven defender anti-flanking thing, or outright immunity to sneak attacks; which I believe a high enough uncanny dodge can function as in PnP. In order to make them somewhat better in mobs (especially if those mobs have some sneak attack ability). This would also mean a barbarian would make a better -guard outright in certain circumstances then a fighter would. Though the fighter would remain king (okay.. maybe not king but better) for such most of the time.

[Urch]

- Haste and -4 AC (to offset the +4 from Haste)

What about kensai barbarians? This would basically render them somewhat redundant compared to regular barbarians.