The weight of Death.

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

Death as a whole on Arelith means very little until you decide it should mean something. That also means people can choose to not care at all if the death means anything to them. So a lot of the times it can feel very arbitrary when someone dies, or the next time it's a gut-wrenching night of horrors.

And despite enjoying PvP as I do, I think about this far before conflict starts between my characters and other people's characters. That leads me to second guessing my objective to kill that target, as compared to creating an alternative story around the conflict so that it can continue and perhaps later come to a beautiful conclusion. But that kind of investment usually has to go both ways, so it is a difficult road 90% of the time.

I fully agree with the concept of ignoring some deaths as write-offs, because truly, it'd be terrible if this server had a heavy death burden. The continuity of lengthy stories would be challenged moreso by survival than by the conflict within them, and that would be impossible to micromanage with the builds that some people create on the server.

However, I think a fix to all of it would be to consider the outcome of the death of your character in that instance. If it does not line up with the ultimate satisfaction that we're all looking to gain out of a pleasurable story to read and witness, then communication is key! Suggesting another path that you could both invest into could go a long way to creating a great story arch for not only one another, but for others as well.

Or killbash them and leave them in the Hub. Either or.

[Yolrii]

I do try to RP death, I mean, I RP being disoriented and confused, sometimes frightened, and the respawn sickness I try to RP also.

But I recall one occasion where someone asked to be deliberately killed, then resurrected, to speak to a dead person in the fugue.

It's a recurring theme where people treat death casually as "they can just be resurrected." In D&D, however (re: on the mainland), this doesn't always work.

A culture needs to be enforced of treating death with more weight. I would like to see the DMs taking a more active role in this.

[MoreThanThree]

Imagine if this server was just a bunch of people sitting around in front of the Nomad for a DM to spawn something for them to kill/resolve, instead of players killing each other?
Death has weight. PvP and PvE have no weight.

[Sockss]

I completely disagree with the premise you should focus on building up other characters. Interaction and cooperation are important, but your primary focus should be to make your own character compelling, for both your own and others enjoyment.

Otherwise you're left with a character that is not taken seriously by anyone and ignored because they're both boring and irrelevant, and left with some ooc victim complex because you genuinely believe what you're doing makes a character respected and compelling and the only possible reason people don't listen to you is therefore an ooc conspiracy.

For the love of God. Always focus primarily on your character.

[Lady Astray]

I completely disagree with the premise you should focus on building up other characters. Interaction and cooperation are important, but your primary focus should be to make your own character compelling, for both your own and others enjoyment.

Otherwise you're left with a character that is not taken seriously by anyone and ignored because they're both boring and irrelevant, and left with some ooc victim complex because you genuinely believe what you're doing makes a character respected and compelling and the only possible reason people don't listen to you is therefore an ooc conspiracy.

For the love of God. Always focus primarily on your character.

This argument is reasonable. I can definitely see how this could happen and why you would feel this way.

[Queen Titania]

I'm deleting several comments. I'll let this thread stay open, but please mind yourselves. No need for attacks on eachother.

I don't see death changing. For some it will be too harsh, others too light. At the end of the day, if you want to feel more risk, we have Mark of Destinies we are happy to give you your new character. You can also RP loss without going as serious as death.

Still, feel free to continue on.

[TroubledWaters]

Regardless of how well we RP our own characters' deaths, I do think there's a frustration with how death is played out across the server. It generally isn't taken seriously, especially if it's a PvP death as people are very reluctant to RP losing.

One of the effects of this is the recent increase in disarm builds, as that's really the only way to make winning and losing a fight have consequence.

Perhaps if there were a way to ensure that more people people take death seriously (24 hour out of game convalescence for PvP deaths, extended rez sickness, DM enforcement of RPing death, whatever), we'd have fewer people resorting to disarm to get their points across.

[MissEvelyn]

One of the effects of this is the recent increase in disarm builds, as that's really the only way to make winning and losing a fight have consequence.

Why is it that we don't have a script that returns the disarmed weapon into its user's inventory?

[Richørd]

I didn't feel like reading every other post made so far but still would like to throw my comment on top of the already existing pile.


I feel like death, at times, is rather meaningless. Oh, you play a rough chaotic neutral PC that tends to be overly agresssive? Well, tough sh*t. On Arelith you'll have to face the fact that people do not fear death as noone has a tendency of staying dead and barely anyone RPs proper consequences out of it.

Imagine how ballsy people would be in the real world if we could just respawn by believing hard enough. Getting mugged by some shady druggy with a knife in hand? No problem, just try wrestling it from him and getting your personal superhero moment. Why would you care about bleeding out if you can just respawn later, lmao.

Can death be a proper tool to push RP? Absolutely yes if it's taken serious. Absolutely not if the other party that plays a lvl 8 PC decides to be ballsy with a local guard who's probably in their epics just because "I'll just respawn, k?"
Get ambushed by a rival in the streets of Andunor? Just wait 5 minutes to respawn and then send him death threats even tho you just got your backside handed to you, lol.

EDIT : I would not mind seeing a rule implemented that asks people to uphold the legitimacy of death and RP it properly.

[The GrumpyCat]

EDIT : I would not mind seeing a rule implemented that asks people to uphold the legitimacy of death and RP it properly.

Whilst we don't have a solid 'rule' on this, we do have a policy that players should take death/loosing seriously, especialy in pvp situations. PCs who repeatedly fail to do this are generally dealt with, especialy in pvp situations.

[TroubledWaters]

I think one of the strangest things about Arelith is that there is no memory loss on PvP death. I think that's unique among RP servers.

The result of all this, as the post from Richørd mentions, is that five minutes after dying a player can just respawn and start talking tough to the character that it lost to. It can also report the fight to its friends, creating a posse that can hunt for the victor. I think that doesn't facilitate good RP, only revenge PvP that is very loosely plot-based and more about getting one up on an opposing player, not their character.

The general guidance for this situation has been "well you should take it upon yourself to be better and RP the right way", but that's left to each individual player and, judging from this thread, does not seem to be working out.

@Grumpycat, how would one go about reporting someone for not taking death seriously?

And finally...

Why is it that we don't have a script that returns the disarmed weapon into its user's inventory?

I really have no idea, but that's another thread I think - and it got locked.

[The GrumpyCat]

.

The result of all this, as the post from Richørd mentions, is that five minutes after dying a player can just respawn and start talking tough to the character that it lost to.

Er. No. PvP Rules apply here. Unless those rules have been waved, if you die in PvP to another character you should attempt to avoid them and not interact with them in any way until the 24 hours are up. If someone is doing this, please do report that IS certainly a blatent abuse of the rules.

Reporting is like reporting anything else - Send a forum PM to the active DM group, ideally with details of who the player is, and the situation involved.

[Zavandar]

EDIT : I would not mind seeing a rule implemented that asks people to uphold the legitimacy of death and RP it properly.

same

fortunately the DM team seems like it's pretty on top of this. it's a complex issue, though

[MoreThanThree]

Remember when PvP made you wait 40 minutes to respawn? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[Eters]

I'm shimming in a bit late, But death only has the weight we as players are willing to give it.

The weight of the death comes not only from the death itself, but the weight of the entire plot that led to such a death. Any death born from a long a meaningful RP, a proper character development and a closure, will hold a huge weight, despite it mechanically not being that penalizing.

Unfortunately in practical, death happens over the most trivial of things, and naturally the weight of such a death is as trivial as the events that led up to it.

In my opinion, if we want death to have weight, we have to compose and temper ourselves with the PvP aspect of the server. As much as it is fun to decimate people left and right, It is a storytelling tool that is, vaguely misused. Rather than being the last resort to a conflict and let any situation reach it's peak before involving PvP, and serve as a "enhancement" to the story. It becomes now "the story" and any amount of conflict, small as it is, leads to PvP. Which naturally removes all it's weight, and it often bears fruit to a dull story. "I ran into this guy, and he died." the why's and how's and effects of such deaths often are non-existent.

Fearlessness and jadedness towards death itself bleeds out from the OOC to the IC and we end up with pretty ridiculous situations like "Oh, I died yesterday, but I'm fine now." And the reason behind such is often a hasty one line and a discussion argued with wails of banshee's and missile storms rather than words and a proper build up.

[Alox]

Number of deaths are more strongly tied to the mechanical powerbuild strength of your character than the quality of your RP.

And hence I belong to the camp that thinks a death should only have a significant impact on your RP if you think it fits with the story.

[Rook]

Late to the party, but I think a rather "simple" measure, to make death more meaningful across the server, would be to work on the subdual feature.

If people had a true and proven method to subdue other characters without doing the whole killing & rezzing spiel, I believe less people would die "meaningless" deaths and death might be reserved for more severe instances. Aside from that, a subdue feature over killing someone would promote RP to boot.

[Hazard]

Late to the party, but I think a rather "simple" measure, to make death more meaningful across the server, would be to work on the subdual feature.

If people had a true and proven method to subdue other characters without doing the whole killing & rezzing spiel, I believe less people would die "meaningless" deaths and death might be reserved for more severe instances. Aside from that, a subdue feature over killing someone would promote RP to boot.

It would allow for cities to RP murder being as serious as it should be, if every murder could have just been a terrible beating. It gives the player a chance to defend themselves/attack someone without going all the way. If there was something like that added though, I would still want some small chance of failure even in the best scenarios. Spicy. Could be a lot of fun!

[Hazard]

Report anyone not RPing death seriously to the DMs. Especially in PvP scenarios! It's a roleplaying server and sometimes the answer is just to let people know the rules or give them a guiding nudge in the right direction. DMs are really nice and can talk to you gently to explain a thing and are not at all scary unless you've been really bad.

[Yolrii]

Regardless of how well we RP our own characters' deaths, I do think there's a frustration with how death is played out across the server. It generally isn't taken seriously, especially if it's a PvP death as people are very reluctant to RP losing.

One of the effects of this is the recent increase in disarm builds, as that's really the only way to make winning and losing a fight have consequence.

Perhaps if there were a way to ensure that more people people take death seriously (24 hour out of game convalescence for PvP deaths, extended rez sickness, DM enforcement of RPing death, whatever), we'd have fewer people resorting to disarm to get their points across.

I seem to recall an instance where someone was deliberately seeking methods to induce permadeath. Another instance where a "permadeath assassination" was carried out using the UD slave pit.

The latter was reversed, thank God. Some very frustrated people out there seeking to enforce consequence.

The issue with enforcing those consequences, though, comes when a death effectively ends your RP for the night, because your character can no longer walk. (Not everyone has access to 100+ storage chests, and certain things have to be carried, period.) Next thing you know, RP on the server is even more weighted in favour of those who can actually PVP. Things are already decided by gank-squads.

The admins have sought a balance between consequences, and ruining someone's day. We come here to have fun. And RPing someone who's just had their head kicked in gets tired after so long.

I'd like to see DM enforcement of this, I think, and an emphasis on RPing death. We need to create a culture of this. And players trying to do that only goes so far. Some people will literally not listen unless someone with a hat and a badge on enforces it.

[Hazard]

I'd like to see DM enforcement of this, I think, and an emphasis on RPing death. We need to create a culture of this. And players trying to do that only goes so far. Some people will literally not listen unless someone with a hat and a badge on enforces it.

It's true. I've had some very unpleasant/nasty responses from people when I gently try to give them some information. Because of how people behave I just report things and hope the DMs will do the nudging for me, because they're floaty and invisible and somewhat anonymous and I am none of those things >.>

[-XXX-]

Even though giving character death weight is nowhere explicitly mentioned, it is sort of implied in the 5 rules.
Namely:

1) Role Play - I feel like this is fairly straightforward
2) PvP - by abiding the utmost minimum stated by this rule and abstaining from any ongoing conflict for 24 hrs you're at least allowing your character's adversaries to enjoy their "win" for a short while
3) Listen to the DMs - scroll up a bit, it's a good idea, I promise
4) BE NICE - personally I consider this to be the most important part. By allowing your character to be profoundly influenced by another player's IC actions, you are showing them a courtesy. It is a way of SHARING your own character with other players, allowing them to have fun with something that you created - I personally consider this one form of being nice.

[The GrumpyCat]

Just as a personal aside...

As a DM/Player, I wouldn't even neccesarly damand people rp death. Death - realisticaly - should be pretty perminent and it's understandable if people find it hard to rp a situation which, semi realisticly speaking, should be extremely rare, extremely serious. And honestly I think a lot of players feel the same way - there isn't really any huge expectation that with every pvp/pve death you perma, or have your characters go through massive grieving processes/epic quests ect.

I think though- especialy as reguards PvP death, what most people do want to see is the RP of -loss-. To respect the defeat. To respect that something terrible and traumatic happened. To not jump right back on your feet and go 'lol i'm back!' but to rp injury, weakness, trauma, fear, ect. To give that victory some weight, the same (or similar) weight that you would want were you in their place.

[WinkinBlinkin]

My husband suggested once that all PvP should be subdual unless settings were made with mutual consent for it to be permanent. You could muck about with penalties, but at least that way you wouldn't be put in the silly situation of having to rp your own death.

[MoreThanThree]

Even with all the weight we want to give death, I refuse to let anyone else tell me my own characters died.