Water/food system

[xanrael]

it would be nice for the rest of us to get some indication of what's going on. Is their character eating? Opening a bag? About to murder everyone with a powerful rod?

It actually used to be like this and was changed because people found it annoying. You might be "forced" to eat at a spot that didn't make any RP sense by the system just like you might be "forced" to rest at a place you wouldn't do so due to the mechanical consequences.

I'm not saying simulationist RP is bad, some people might want a courtroom drama to play out the lunch break during the trial. Some people want the momentum to keep going though. The whole thing kind of reminds me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtQNULEudss&t=3m30s

[Subutai]

It actually used to be like this and was changed because people found it annoying. You might be "forced" to eat at a spot that didn't make any RP sense by the system just like you might be "forced" to rest at a place you wouldn't do so due to the mechanical consequences.

I'm not saying simulationist RP is bad, some people might want a courtroom drama to play out the lunch break during the trial. Some people want the momentum to keep going though. The whole thing kind of reminds me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtQNULEudss&t=3m30s

This seems like a bit of an odd thing. The system isn't "forcing" you to eat or to rest. You didn't eat, or you didn't rest, generally speaking. If everyone goes into a long event with ~100% food, then there's no reason to think there shouldn't be a lunch break in the middle. Real trials have lunch breaks. They also break for the day. It's not like you go into court in the morning and you're there all day and don't get to eat anything.

Similarly with resting, if you're in the middle of a dungeon and you get down so low on rest that you get penalties, why didn't your character rest before? If you go for a run, you're not just going to run for 6 hours without stopping (unless you're a supermarathoner). You're not going to play a high intensity sport for 6 hours non-stop.

Obviously, there are some extenuating circumstances, but by and large, having to eat/drink/rest when it wouldn't make sense ICly seems to me to be more an issue of not being prepared ICly, rather than it being "forced".

I'm all ears if you disagree. I'd have no problem having my opinion changed.

[TimeAdept]

It actually used to be like this and was changed because people found it annoying. You might be "forced" to eat at a spot that didn't make any RP sense by the system just like you might be "forced" to rest at a place you wouldn't do so due to the mechanical consequences.

I'm not saying simulationist RP is bad, some people might want a courtroom drama to play out the lunch break during the trial. Some people want the momentum to keep going though. The whole thing kind of reminds me of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtQNULEudss&t=3m30s

This seems like a bit of an odd thing. The system isn't "forcing" you to eat or to rest. You didn't eat, or you didn't rest, generally speaking. If everyone goes into a long event with ~100% food, then there's no reason to think there shouldn't be a lunch break in the middle. Real trials have lunch breaks. They also break for the day. It's not like you go into court in the morning and you're there all day and don't get to eat anything.

Similarly with resting, if you're in the middle of a dungeon and you get down so low on rest that you get penalties, why didn't your character rest before? If you go for a run, you're not just going to run for 6 hours without stopping (unless you're a supermarathoner). You're not going to play a high intensity sport for 6 hours non-stop.

Obviously, there are some extenuating circumstances, but by and large, having to eat/drink/rest when it wouldn't make sense ICly seems to me to be more an issue of not being prepared ICly, rather than it being "forced".

I'm all ears if you disagree. I'd have no problem having my opinion changed.

Meters don't tick down when we're offline despite the fact that time still passes.

food and water meters are needless simulation in a world where you can wear a ring and only need 2 hours of sleep and no food or water.

druids can make single berries capable of feeding a full grown man for 24 hours. a handful sustains him for a week.

If you go for a run, you're not just going to run for 6 hours without stopping (unless you're a supermarathoner).

Spoilers: Our PCs are supermarathoners. And supergeniuses. And superstrongmen.

We are handling problems about savig and destroying the fabric of reality and existence, why are we chained to coffee and beef jerky?

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

because even the president has to consume sustenance

[Subutai]

Meters don't tick down when we're offline despite the fact that time still passes.

This seems like a basic mechanical necessity. The alternative is that when you don't log in for a day, you return to your character having starved to death because they're Tamagotchis who require constant maintenance to prevent from dying, and no one can ever go longer than a few hours without logging in.

food and water meters are needless simulation in a world where you can wear a ring and only need 2 hours of sleep and no food or water.

druids can make single berries capable of feeding a full grown man for 24 hours. a handful sustains him for a week.

I don't find this answer particularly compelling, to be honest. To me, it reads a bit like a pen and paper player using the magic item list to dictate to the DM how the world should be. Those items don't have to exist, and don't have to do what they do in the rulebook. Any similar items on Arelith can or cannot exist, depending on how the DM/Devs want to run the game world, and if they do exist, they can work differently.

Spoilers: Our PCs are supermarathoners. And supergeniuses. And superstrongmen.

We are handling problems about savig and destroying the fabric of reality and existence, why are we chained to coffee and beef jerky?

This, to me, is essentially the age-old "things don't need to be believable or realistic because magic" argument, which is a pretty key component to creating an uninteresting fictional world. Every individual thing that separates a fantasy world from the real world is another strain on suspension of disbelief. The farther a fantasy world strays from the real world, the harder it is for people playing in the setting, or reading about the setting, or watching the setting, from feeling immersed in the world, as there's less and less to connect them to that world.

Real world limitations work as anchors for this. Sure, your characters might be extremely strong, and able to fight demons, and cast world changing magical spells, and jump across dimensions, but they still have to have connections to the real world to make them seem like real, believable people. Eating, sleeping, breathing, are all very basic anchors that give a sense that despite their fantastical abilities, the people who populate Arelith are still people, and like normal people, they have some degree of physical limitations and normal bodily functions.

[CosmicOrderV]

I would be sad to see it go. It could definitely be improved, but it's nice to simulate self vs nature conflicts, even if it's only on a more self-aware level.

It's part of why i think disease should be ramped up and healing kits nerfed to no longer be able to remove disease/poison. Brings an elemental of survival to long stake outs while stealtged in someone's quarter, or a long epic journey. But... It could probably stand to be tweaked. Im not so much in favor of buffs, but harsher negatives for not eating, and maybe buff specific recipes. For eample how a pie of restoration only does Restore, no food tick increase. That should probably be changed.

Also Subutai you are awesome. 100%

[Basementfellow]

I just don't get the people that call for "realism" in situations like this. I definitely understand needing some grounding elements in one's fantasy - that's vital, I agree - but such trite minutia as filling a food/water meter? I understand those that want an element of man vs. nature - that sorta thing is great, in some games - but Arelith is simply not built for that sort of experience. In practice, it's just unnecessary. Tedious. It's not interesting - I could never say with a straight face that it has enhanced my immersion or made for a compelling story to have the pacing of an adventure or interaction lurch to an awkward pause so we could suddenly vacuum up one of our fifty stacks of water and rations with that stupid arm animation then sit down for ten seconds - and never has it impacted me or challenged me in any meaningful way. Pet-peeve of mine, it is.

[Vincent]

Realism is only relevant as far as good gameplay is concerned and it's worth noting Arelith isn't a survival simulator. While this by itself would be reason enough to debate the system's merits there's also the fact there's nothing very realistic at all about chowing down five of your rations and bottles of water at arbitrary intervals as you haul about 4000lbs of items on a dragon-slaying crusade.

It seems like it may in be place more for mechanical reasons than anything else. An incentive to not stay logged on the server when going AFK, as your character will die and lose XP: I imagine that's the reasoning behind its implementation.

There isn't much to argue in favor of the system otherwise. I mean Irongron literally said it isn't removed because it'd take too much effort lol, which is understandable.

[Xerah]

Without being funny, food/water system made me not choose Arelith when I was originally shopping around for PWs.

Now, I suffer through it.

[Volograd]

I enjoy having the food/water system in place not so much for the actual use of it, but rather because it reminds me that food and water are a thing for our characters at all.

It adds a nice layer to immersion when someone emotes what they’re eating, or something along those lines. The system helps remind me to do so myself.

[Sea Shanties]

For eample how a pie of restoration only does Restore, no food tick increase. That should probably be changed.

I think any spell of restoration should fill your food and water meters. Lesser maybe adds 50%.

That would make food and water meters much less of a nuisance and allow clerics and druids to RP their abilities to create sustenance.

[Mr_Rieper]

It's not useless and it should not be removed. If anything, I'd like to see it developed further.

I like how water and food encourages people to stay near settlements - and within that, near the locations that allow you to refill them, like taverns/foodstalls/water wells. It would be nice if there were more varieties of food and water. Maybe, to the people that disliked the system, a far more expensive variant of food or bottled water that restored a much larger percentage.

I liked the idea of coffee. Very valuable commodity there. It would be cool if there were food items that worked on the wolfsbane script, and were very filling but expired after a certain number of ingame ticks. Certain races like gnolls or goblins were unaffected by eating expired food etc.

I don't like the idea of having mechanical buffs for food, water or rest. It's an RP mechanic, it should create and support RP, not min-maxing.

That would make food and water meters much less of a nuisance and allow clerics and druids to RP their abilities to create sustenance.

They can easily create food by tending to plants. The mechanic is already there. My nature cleric has berries, nuts and fruit on him at all times. It's just too easy to do while you're farming cotton.

[xanrael]

Similarly with resting, if you're in the middle of a dungeon and you get down so low on rest that you get penalties, why didn't your character rest before? If you go for a run, you're not just going to run for 6 hours without stopping (unless you're a supermarathoner). You're not going to play a high intensity sport for 6 hours non-stop.

Obviously, there are some extenuating circumstances, but by and large, having to eat/drink/rest when it wouldn't make sense ICly seems to me to be more an issue of not being prepared ICly, rather than it being "forced".

I'm all ears if you disagree. I'd have no problem having my opinion changed.

There is a big difference between a scheduled RP thing and something that extends on for RL hours that many thought was going to be a 5 minutes long. The tone of it might not fit taking a lunch break. I've been involved in more of the latter than the former.

I'm not saying you couldn't have a cool scene where there is a lunch break during a trial to either have a shift from tense to relaxed, or to have people split off and make secret deals over sandwiches for the latter part of the trial. That's not how the system plays out though. You'll have 10 people in RP and 1-2 of them will be low on some meter 5 minutes in, then maybe another 1-2 an hour later, then another 1-2 an hour after that, etc.

Also as the original point of yours I responded to was reverting the emote change; how would one know if someone else had their waterskin filled with water or a potion, or they were eating a normal pie or one of restoration? Even police get confused when someone reaches into their pocket/back/glove compartment to pull out something on whether it is a weapon or not. Similarly if you're surrounded by 10 people with bows and wands at the ready, probably a bad time to grab a Snicker's bar.

[Mr_Rieper]

Also as the original point of yours I responded to was reverting the emote change; how would one know if someone else had their waterskin filled with water or a potion, or they were eating a normal pie or one of restoration? Even police get confused when someone reaches into their pocket/back/glove compartment to pull out something on whether it is a weapon or not. Similarly if you're surrounded by 10 people with bows and wands at the ready, probably a bad time to grab a Snicker's bar.

If they emoted clearly that they were reaching for food, and that they were eating - or the same for water and drinking, most people would let it slide. Even in a hostile encounter. If you were lying in a clearly stated emote to gain an advantage, players would reasonably not trust you in RP situations anymore and again, reasonably attack you after bare minimum RP instead of giving you a chance to cheat.

If it's an ambiguously worded emote, then they'd RP accordingly. Point is, just emote what your character was trying to do and most people will react appropriately. It's really not as big of an issue as people make it out to be. Of course the more PvP minded people don't like the water/rest/food system.

Of course, the dead don't feel hungry, so maybe allowing your enemy one last meal isn't really a courtesy that should be given. I dunno. Sounds like something to be roleplayed.

[xanrael]

Agreed, and I do still see people emote taking a sip from their waterskin or munching on some food. I just like it as a choice the player can make that adds to the scene as opposed to it being a forced emote due to meter upkeep regardless of what is happening around them.

[Subutai]

It's not useless and it should not be removed. If anything, I'd like to see it developed further.

This is pretty much where I stand on it. I feel like a number of the current issues people have, such as the system lacking immersion, could (and should) be resolved not by removing the system, but by improving it. Right now, it's a bit of a lukewarm feature. You get hungry, you use a Food ability, and you aren't hungry anymore. It's not surprising that that isn't immersive to some people.

A system that's a little more in-depth, and bring a little more to the table in terms of detail, could really improve immersion. Additionally, a better system of warnings (such as saying something like "You're feeling a little peckish" at 50% hunger, could serve to remind people much earlier that they should eat something, instead of only getting warnings once you're pretty low.

There is a big difference between a scheduled RP thing and something that extends on for RL hours that many thought was going to be a 5 minutes long. The tone of it might not fit taking a lunch break. I've been involved in more of the latter than the former.

To be perfectly honest, in all but the very most dire circumstances, this doesn't seem like a real issue. There's lunch served at funerals, soldiers on a battlefield take a break to eat something, war room conferences in the White House get food brought in. There are almost no situations in which people go for huge amounts of time without eating. There might be a couple, but just because some event is super serious, or takes a lot of time, doesn't mean that characters eating would break the tone. Eating and drinking are very much normal functions that people need to operate at peak efficiency. In the real world, we recognize that and usually make conscious efforts to make sure that, in stressful situations, people are eating properly. I don't see why this shouldn't be done IG, as well.

I'm not saying you couldn't have a cool scene where there is a lunch break during a trial to either have a shift from tense to relaxed, or to have people split off and make secret deals over sandwiches for the latter part of the trial. That's not how the system plays out though. You'll have 10 people in RP and 1-2 of them will be low on some meter 5 minutes in, then maybe another 1-2 an hour later, then another 1-2 an hour after that, etc.

I've definitely had this happen often enough myself. From a mechanical perspective, I think this could be covered fairly well with an early-warning system, like I mentioned above. Your character gets to 50% or 75% hunger, and they get a warning about it. This could help remind players to have their character eat more frequently, instead of waiting until they're at -10% to eat anything.

Also as the original point of yours I responded to was reverting the emote change; how would one know if someone else had their waterskin filled with water or a potion, or they were eating a normal pie or one of restoration? Even police get confused when someone reaches into their pocket/back/glove compartment to pull out something on whether it is a weapon or not. Similarly if you're surrounded by 10 people with bows and wands at the ready, probably a bad time to grab a Snicker's bar.

I'd kind of lost track of the original point, so thanks for bringing it back up. I don't think that it needs to say "Subutai drinks water" or "Subutai eats A Nice Egg", but it could say "Subutai drinks" or "Subutai eats".

If it comes to something that's been such a tense situation for so long that everyone's ready to fight the second someone tries to get something from their bag, I'd say that's an RP opportunity. If everyone's been in a standoff for 12 hours without food, you can expect that at least some of the people involved would be really, really hungry, and even in hostage situations, people eating food is considered very important, and a good way to break tension a bit while people have a chance to eat and collect themselves.

What I'm really saying, in the end, is that rather than considering eating and drinking as some kind of contrived obstacle to make RP more detrimental, there's no reason it can't be used to enrich roleplay. Most people (including myself, a lot of the time) just use the food, and don't say or do anything else. That doesn't have to be the case. Your character can announce it, they can carefully remove what's obviously a Philly cheese steak from their bag and eat it, or any number of things. It's entirely doable to successfully roleplay your character eating, even in a stressful situation, if you choose to do it.

[Xerah]

Mundane is not interesting to role play all the time. That's the issue with the system. Can you RP a nice meal? Sure. But being forced to do it all the time is extremely uninteresting. It's a big reason why people don't even bother.

Does it help immersion when you toss to fists in front of you to eat? I've certainly never seen anyone eat like that. That's the visual reason why I hate it.

This is pretty much where I stand on it. I feel like a number of the current issues people have, such as the system lacking immersion, could (and should) be resolved not by removing the system, but by improving it.

It will never be immersive to the rest of us, because of how mundane it is, even if carrots are involved.

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

There should be eating fixtures in inns and quarters. Similar to pumps for water.

[xanrael]

I'd kind of lost track of the original point, so thanks for bringing it back up. I don't think that it needs to say "Subutai drinks water" or "Subutai eats A Nice Egg", but it could say "Subutai drinks" or "Subutai eats".

I'm not really looking to convince you to change your mind, rather give a few reasons on why people found it annoying in the first place that caused it to be changed from exactly that to what it is now.

It's sort of like arguing whether a particular mod like Realistic Needs and Diseases or iNeed is a "required" mod for a Skyrim playthrough for all people no exceptions or not. There are good reasons why many players would want it and the mods should exist, but less reasons why all players should be required to have them to even launch the game.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

I kind-of like it. Sure, it's frustrating sometimes, and it's downright irksome when characters keep on sagging in the middle of conversations because I just wanted to keep my spell slots ready for a server change.

But; for me at least, it's nice now and then to get a poke to remind me to RP the little stuff. Much like the beautifully written environmental emotes that seem to pop up on the Bitter Coast now, it's a nice bit of window dressing I can react to in order to better ground a character in the world. It also means there's an incentive for wine-slaves to populate the Hub, which is nice.

I'd probably be happier still if the tracker was decoupled from a mechanical effect - just a little 'You're starting to feel hungry.' note would serve the purpose, with the side benefit of letting me ignore it if it's not the current direction RP's going in. But I'd rather have what we have than nothing at all.

[Subutai]

[Xanrael's post]

These are all completely good justifications. I like the system (and would more, if it were improved), and you don't. I agree that I don't think we're going to change each others' minds, and that's fine. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and that's what makes the world interesting.

However, to quote Irongron from the start of the thread...

I'm on record saying this system will not be removed.

I don't quote that to say "I win" or anything like that. Rather, since it's evident that the system won't be removed (at least any time in the foreseeable future), I think debating whether or not the system is should be in place or not is a bit of a moot point. In that case, we might be better served by discussing how we think the system could be improved to make it more enjoyable, or at least more palatable.

Assuming it will never be removed, do you have any thoughts on how it could be made better?

[xanrael]

[Xanrael's post]

These are all completely good justifications. I like the system (and would more, if it were improved), and you don't. I agree that I don't think we're going to change each others' minds, and that's fine. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and that's what makes the world interesting.

However, to quote Irongron from the start of the thread...

I'm on record saying this system will not be removed.

I don't quote that to say "I win" or anything like that. Rather, since it's evident that the system won't be removed (at least any time in the foreseeable future), I think debating whether or not the system is should be in place or not is a bit of a moot point. In that case, we might be better served by discussing how we think the system could be improved to make it more enjoyable, or at least more palatable.

Assuming it will never be removed, do you have any thoughts on how it could be made better?

You may have been arguing with a fictitious point then. You wanted to revert a change that is in place in the system today. I explained part of the reasoning it no longer worked the way it does. While yes, I'm in favor of the change that was made a long time ago, I haven't put forward my stance on the water/food meters in general.

I think that food/water in NPC stores should be able to be poisoned and it should be possible to investigate exactly who did it (just like I think quarter theft should be easier but there should be tools in place to have a solid chance to know exactly who was responsible). Maybe that would make trusted PC cooks more of a thing and spawn RP if they decided to participate in an assassination of a loyal customer. Maybe people would just take their chances with NPCs, probably a bit of both. It would add choices and possible conflict and RP from said conflict without initiative being rolled to signal a "start".

Basically I favor more meaningful interactions between characters and players and want it left open to the RP whether it is good, bad, or neutral. Crafting, enchanting, settlements, shops, etc often involve interactions and in my experience writs have helped on the adventuring front. I'd argue theft is often not very interactive unless the thief goes out of their way to do so and the food/water system currently is pretty much a game you play by yourself.

Edit - I will say I know my "ideal" would never come to pass though as the majority would be against it so this isn't me suggesting for a change.

[Iceborn]

I'm on record saying this system will not be removed.

And if we ask please?
What about using a minor or normal award to disable it?
An IC option? A feat? A magical place of power?

[Mr_Rieper]

There should be eating fixtures in inns and quarters. Similar to pumps for water.

I both like and don't like this idea. One of the most frustrating things about having "catering" at an event is people having to break apart stacks and find the item in their inventory, and eat it. It would be cool if we had a fixture we could use -eat at and it would cause a character animation and filling the hunger meter.

But at the same time, I don't think it should be a permanent fixture. Characters shouldn't walk into the Nomad or Logjam to feed at the public trough, it'd really odd.

Mundane is not interesting to role play all the time. That's the issue with the system. Can you RP a nice meal? Sure. But being forced to do it all the time is extremely uninteresting. It's a big reason why people don't even bother.

Does it help immersion when you toss to fists in front of you to eat? I've certainly never seen anyone eat like that. That's the visual reason why I hate it.

The most immersive part isn't the physical action of eating or drinking. It's the need to find/carry food or drink on you, and the need to gravitate towards sources of it. Message boards and sources of food/water as well as resting areas are the heart of any settlement. And I mean that in a literal sense, as it pumps traffic to and from these locations. I'd call that really immersive, because if you think about it, literally everything we do in RL revolves around securing food and water first and foremost. It's a necessity. Most of our social functions are centered around sharing food with others. The quality of the food you eat even reflects your social class. It's really important as a social function, and helps to shape cultures . The idea for the system on Arelith is good, it's just incomplete and therefore, boring.

We should have more variants of food. What do the people of Guldorand eat? What are the traditional dishes of Cordor? What kind of food would you expect to find in a kitchen in Bendir? Let's make the food npcs a little more unique. Allow characters to express a fondness for a particular food. My character refers to the people of Guldorand as Cragsmen (Skull Crags), and would most likely have developed a deep affection for their dishes, mostly out of loyalty. That's something you can RP. Another one of my characters might really like spiced chicken. I dunno, experiment with giving things more flavor (literally and metaphorically).

[Subutai]

The most immersive part isn't the physical action of eating or drinking. It's the need to find/carry food or drink on you, and the need to gravitate towards sources of it. Message boards and sources of food/water as well as resting areas are the heart of any settlement. And I mean that in a literal sense, as it pumps traffic to and from these locations. I'd call that really immersive, because if you think about it, literally everything we do in RL revolves around securing food and water first and foremost. It's a necessity. Most of our social functions are centered around sharing food with others. The quality of the food you eat even reflects your social class. It's really important as a social function, and helps to shape cultures . The idea for the system on Arelith is good, it's just incomplete and therefore, boring.

Very well said, I agree entirely. The importance of food and drink can't be overstated. I'd absolutely love to see food and drink made more immersive because of this exact thing. Having to make it a primary resource, rather than something that just kind of passively sits in our inventory until we need it, would be fantastic. It couldn't spoil at the same rate as real life food, but maybe on an actual "real life" type timer. Non-preserved food only lasts in your inventory for a number of IRL days (including offline?), so you can't go around carrying 50 Food and just eating it whenever.

Overall, I'd really like a larger conversation about ways to make food and drink (and rest, to some extent, maybe) more immersive, so it feels more like a part of the world, and less like a mechanical meter than I have to feed (heh) when it gets low.