Arelith

I think the funniest thing about threads pertaining to bards and sorcerers where people consistently claim them to be really good, is that it's one exclusive build that dips paladin/blackguard. That's not the base class being good. That's a problem with those specific classes that needs to be addressed.

It also sounds pretty willfully ignorant to say that you dont believe a class ought to be allowed to play out an archetype clearly within its purview. You draw comparisons to sorc and cleric, but then dont take into consideration they both get 9th level spells? That's not even a comparison. These things are on completely different playing fields. Judge a fish by how well it flies and it will always fail. Bard shouldnt be a useless fish flopping around on dry land because they focus on spell casting.

The devs have no qualms about putting limiters on things like monk dips, keeping them from being overpowered with spellswords and rogues/assassin bonuses and dragons etc etc. I don't see why paladin and BG bard dips couldn't be nerfed if a CHA-based bard path emerged.

I definitely think the "skald" model is great and powerful but it would be nice to see a more graceful bard option for those who would rather play lilting folk music over Norwegian death metal.

They aren't useless. The claim that they are aggravates me beyond rational reason. Clarify your statements. Useless in what capacity? Soloing? Arelith isn't a single-player game.

Buff things. I'm always fine with buffing things. I get aggravated at the vacuum-statements that are used to support buffs (and nerfs) a lot, however.

A pure bard that focuses on spell-casting is never going to be the first thing you go looking for to survive a dangerous journey. However, every single party of two or more benefits drastically from the presence of a level 30 bard dedicated to singing and casting. Claiming otherwise is, IMO, a result of being too narrow-sighted, or outright lying. Want proof?

Name any single party composition other than one comprised of only pure casters, that does not instantly become drastically more powerful with the addition of a spell-casting and singing level 30 bard. Even an all-caster party can save on buffs and put out more damage spells by bringing the bard.

A combat SUPPORT archetype will almost never take center stage in a combat scenario. They shouldn't. You either want to play a support character or you want to be the supported character - buff whatever you like, but stop using the desire to do both things at once as a justification for balance changes, please.

Otherwise, let's just do away with all archetypes, give every class access to all spells, give all classes full BAB and gear access, and host a free-form RPG.

@OP; This is more addressed to the people arguing about your thread than the nature of your thread itself - like I said, I'm all for buffing things to make them more fun. I do, however, think your idea drastically overtunes a class themed around a support basis into a "do everything" build.

May I suggest an alternative? I would give bards that haven't yet multiclassed, and bards at level 28, +2 to their spell DCs to make up for the fact that they can't get level 9 spells, and give them an extra +2 to the DC of their spells that they have Greater Spell Focus in after bard level 21, allowing them to close the gap with an Epic Spell Focus simulation, while not giving them the extra "Epic Spells" of pure caster Epic Foci.

Top it off by giving them -10% ASF in medium or lighter armor.

That idea, coupled with additional spells being added to the bard list? Awesome. Superb idea. Y'all see which class won the poll for needing additional spells? It was bard!

Not much to shake the stick at when only about 30 persons voted at all.

Ignoring the pool.
Currently, a full bard with no multiclass is crippling to play solo. And I am not opposed to this; bards are inspiring. Their forte is empowering people around them. A full bard is a strictly support character with little strength on his/her own.

A battle bard is a different thing. It's a class that can exists in many archetypes, spellsingers, skalds, commanders, tacticians, duelists. Bards are amazing. They are just riddled with little annoyances that make them annoying to play. I can list my complaints in bullet points:

*Dex bards have no damage source at all.
*There is no way to build a proper caster bard.
*Their spell selection is tragically small.
*Clarity was nerfed to stop potion abuse from mundane characters, but clarity is the only mind protection that Bards get as a spell, and they have the same limitation, meaning that you can't ward your party - only one member of your group.
*Their summon spells are utterly useless by the levels you get them.
*They are the only class that needs to invest heavily into a skill to make use of its core ability.
*They are the only class that needs to invest a feat to make use of its core ability.
*Bard song is practically useless until level 16.
*Having to recast a bard song every minute is the definition of annoying.
*Bard song has a massive duration leap investing an extra feat only accessible at bard level 20.
*Bard song is not refreshed on recast. You need to wait for the duration to expire to sing again.
*Playing a strength bard forces you to deal with ASF. ASF is incredibly frustrating and requires you to make a sacrifice one way or another. Either by taking an extra feat, gear switching, or using a less-effective armor.
*A pally/BG dip bard is nearly always irrevocably stronger than a non Pally/BG dip bard.
*Bards rely on their buffs, and their low CL in near-obligatory multiclassing makes them dispel bait, while other classes with less magic potential got bonuses to CL to make them harder to dispel.
*Bards get 6 skills per level in PnP 3.5.
*Bards get no ASF in light armor in PnP 3.5.
*Bards are proficient with a few extra weapons in PnP 3.5, including: longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip.


Bards don't need more power. They just need a few tweaks here and there and more flexibility.

Bard is one of the high tier characters you can make on Arelith. i just don't think people do them a lot since rping a bard can be tricky. with all the song writing, poems and performing at festivals. or being a loremaster that gather knowledge of historic events.

Curse song from a high level bard give you like -15 to UMD and discipline skills (and all other skills), making you a prime target for knockdown and disarm as well as removing most characters ability to use scrolls and wands.

on the other hand bard song gives +15 heal skills, ac, ab and other goodies.

They kinda just shine more in a party then in soloing, so having an epic bard in your party can be a blessing and really cripple the enemy super bad.

iam fine with bards lvl 28 getting +10 or +20 to perform thought. make sense to reward pure bards

Seekeepeek wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:51 am Bard is one of the high tier characters you can make on Arelith. i just don't think people do them a lot since rping a bard can be tricky. with all the song writing, poems and performing at festivals. or being a loremaster that gather knowledge of historic events.

Curse song from a high level bard give you like -15 to UMD and discipline skills (and all other skills), making you a prime target for knockdown and disarm as well as removing most characters ability to use scrolls and wands.

on the other hand bard song gives +15 heal skills, ac, ab and other goodies.

They kinda just shine more in a party then in soloing, so having an epic bard in your party can be a blessing and really cripple the enemy super bad.

iam fine with bards lvl 28 getting +10 or +20 to perform thought. make sense to reward pure bards

We can reach 100 perform pretty easy, the items are there and provided. As a pure bard player it simply is'nt going to help, i'd like to suggest not considering full perform but providing us with the true and true of a pure bard, We're not supposed to fight, we are supposed to perform... Perhaps some similar additions as the PDK, some more single target focused songs and effects.

Example :
The arcane version of this spell was generally called emotion and affected one or more creatures in an area designated by the caster. The divine version was known as emotion control and operated very similarly to the arcane version, but could also be used defensively to shield the caster's true emotions from detection and manipulation. The alteration/enchantment versions affected a 20 ft (6.1 m) cube, in which the arcane version targeted all creatures in the region, whereas the number of creatures was limited by the level of the priest for the divine version. The illusionist version covered a 40 ft (12 m) square area but had fewer options (see below). The divine version lasted at least five minutes; more for higher level casters. The arcane and illusionist versions all lasted for as long as the caster concentrated on keeping the emotional state heightened. If any creature in the target area managed to resist the effects of this spell, they were completely unaffected.

The emotion to be projected was chosen at the time of casting and was typically one of the following:

Rage/Courage (arcane, divine, illusionist)
Affected creatures lost all fear, dropped their shields, and waded into battle with a berserk fury, completely disregarding danger to themselves. They were granted a small amount of additional health to help them survive and their boosted strength and morale made them more effective fighters. Emotion (rage) countered and was countered by emotion (fear).
Fear (arcane, divine, illusionist)

Affected creatures were overwhelmed with fear, typically dropped whatever they carried, and moved away from the caster in panic as quickly as possible, even beyond the range of this spell. If the spell wore off or was countered, and a creature attempted to approach the caster again while this spell was in effect, they had to again try to resist the fear when they reentered the area. Emotion (fear) countered and was countered by emotion (rage).[3][4][5][9]
Friendship (arcane, divine only)

The demeanor with which affected creatures regarded the caster was improved. For example, a merely tolerant individual was moved to show goodwill, or a threatening creature became just cautious. Emotion (friendship) countered and was countered by emotion (hate).

Happiness (arcane, divine only)
Creatures became confident, content, complacent, and generally felt good about their current situation. Their reactions were more positive and they were unlikely to take any action against the caster unless sufficiently provoked. Emotion (happiness) countered and was countered by emotion (sadness).
Hate (arcane, divine, illusionist)

Affected creatures regarded the caster in a more negative manner. For example, friendly creatures became indifferent, or cautious creatures became threatening. For arcane and divine casters, emotion (hate) countered and was countered by emotion (friendship),[3][4][5] but for illusionists it countered and was countered by emotion (hopelessness).[9]
Hope (arcane, divine only )

Affected creatures gained a significant morale boost, making them more effective in combat and better able to resist all non-melee attacks such as spells, dragon breath, poison, etc. Emotion (hope) countered and was countered by emotion (hopelessness).

Hopelessness (arcane, divine, illusionist)
Affected creatures suffered a significant drop in morale and were likely to surrender or otherwise submit to the bidding of any opponent, retreat from conflict, or listlessly stand and do nothing. For arcane and divine casters, emotion (hopelessness) countered and was countered by emotion (hope),[3][4][5] but for illusionists it countered and was countered by emotion (hate).[9]
Sadness (arcane, divine only)

Affected creatures became morose and self-absorbed with their own misfortune. This reduced their alertness, made them slow to react, and took the heart out of their will to fight. Emotion (sadness) countered and was countered by emotion (happiness).

When divine spellcasters used emotion control on themselves, it afforded them increased protection from spells such as emotion (the arcane version of this spell), fear, irritation, know alignment, phantasmal killer, scare, spook, and taunt. Furthermore, the priest was instantly aware that he or she was the target of such a spell. If a protected priest was the subject of ESP or emotion read, he or she had a much improved chance to project a false emotion (chosen at the time of casting this spell).

P.s please dont take away current bard song/curse song, they are great.

Seekeepeek wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:51 am Bard is one of the high tier characters you can make on Arelith. i just don't think people do them a lot since rping a bard can be tricky. with all the song writing, poems and performing at festivals. or being a loremaster that gather knowledge of historic events.

I've started and abandoned a lot of bards and it's not the RP that gets me, it's the sheer clunkiness of armor switching and other mechanics that seem at odds with each other. I think after dex-based non-UMD fighters they're probably the biggest pain in the butt to level and while it's a fun class to RP it's not so fun to do all the other stuff the game demands. Having to be strength based or pure support also makes a hin or gnome bard not very appealing, which is kind of unfortunate as a gnome bard could be very fun.

I definitely think they could use some care to synergize their own class abilities (the ideas in this thread are perfectly fine) for quality of life as much as anything, and if possible a way to have some basic competency if they go a route that isn't strength based. I mean what if dex-based bards had their own archer path like rangers with a few feats, access to a weaker-than-rogue sneak attack and the ability to generate ammo? They seem like a natural to make use of darts especially.