A cure for the common bard: the Spellsinger path?

[Opustus]

Hey guyses, while the suggestion box is locked tight, I thought I'd give you my suggestion for making CHA-based bards viable, as it were. Rip it apart, comment nicely, whatever. Know that intention of the thread isn't to pressure Arelith's designers to make a new path for us, but to engage in a creative exercise where we all pretend to be game designers for a while. The world is your oyster and this thread is part of said oyster, so go wild.

Why would we even want a Spellsinger path for bard?

Bards are currently seen in only few forms with mighty BG and Pally dips, honest Bard/Fighters, and buff-oriented Bard/PDKs. While, in my humbledore, this is in itself a dreadfully limited spectrum of bard builds, I claim that there is a greater lack, namely the scarcity of full bards who could be played as non-threatening, nonviolent, partygoing, mystical, and fanciful characters, while still retaining a mechanical usefulness of server-approved repute. The bard class in its present form entails a character who is combat ready, and the classic of the pure bard is, from what I gather, considered somewhat of a bad meme build, because Bard30 would require a full-on investment into CHA at the cost of combat ability.

I know the implementation of a full class path often requires a crazy amount of work, but what I suggest is a rather simple procedure to change a condition in which the CHA-based or pure-class archetype of bard is viewed as somewhat unplayable on Arelith.

The Spellsinger path

The spellsingers are bards who concentrate their artistic pursuits specifically in the school of song as their way of accessing and availing of the Weave.

-Spellsingers gain access to spellsongs: spells that use song charges and scale with bard levels for CL and CHA modifier for DC. For a comparison of this mechanic, consider Lyrics of the Lich; i.e. spellsongs work off of an item.

-The spells would be cast from the bard's location as with Lyrics of the Lich.

-Spellsongs can work on cooldowns or be limited to uses/day as a means of balancing them.

-In addition to the bard's current repertoire of spells, there is a wide variety of spells that could fit the path's theme. For example: Great Thunderclap, Wail of the Banshee, Greater stoneskin, Mass charm, Meteor Shower, Sunburst/Sunbeam, Storm of Vengeance, Hammer of the Gods, Undeath to Death, Nature's Balance. There's also the superkool spell with an awesome VFX Tide of Battle *hype*. The path could be easily balanced by choosing spells appropriate in power level. A balance factor to consider is that songspells couldn't be counterspelled or interrupted due to them working off of items.

-The spellsongs are restricted by class level and base CHA. The base CHA requirement restricts the path to charisma-based builds, limiting the need to balance the path for strength-based variants.

-The different spellsongs can be learned in secret locations across Arelith from NPCs.

-For balance reasons, Spellsingers are barred from multiclassing into Paladin, BG, and Master Harper.

In effect, the Spellsinger path aspires to bring to life the archetype of CHA-based bards and pure bards. The CHA-based bard loses a lot of its combat proficiency by having to meet the CHA requirement to learn the songs. They would still remain suitable for combat, however, since the bard song is such a powerful tool, e.g. they can start with STR18. Sources for a decent damage output would be lacking, though.

As full bard with greensteel equipment and starting STR18, this would mean the expected AB and AC of
buffed AB40/effective AB47 with Curse song (=bab20+gmw5+song2+cursesong7+ewf3+str10)
buffed AC53/effective AC55 with Curse song (=base10+bardsong7+cursesong2+haste4+magearmor1+boots1+deflect3+barskin4+greensteelchain6+greensteelshield5+dex4+armorskin2+tumble6)

Also, reaching Perform100 for the best version of the Bard song would still require a considerable investment: Perform rank 33, SF:Perform, ESF: Perform, CHA modifier 14, Stardom minor gift, Adamantine bracers of persuasion, Blue suede shoes, Golden crown, Ruby amulet, Ten-foot pole, remaining 5 item slots enchanted with +2 Perform
(100=33+3+10+14+6+6+5+3+5+5+10)
This, I fear, would include a lot of gearswapping, which isn't really a desirable game mechanic, imho.

[CosmicOrderV]

I think bards absolutely would flourish under a mechanic that rewards them for having high charisma, but there's no precedent--and it really doesn't make sense--to say when you take levels in a class, it blocks you from another class that would synergize well. You have to keep things thematic, and if the themes match up and make for a strong combination, that's just the way it goes.

The key to balancing it would be nerfing one of those two classes, not arbitrarily saying one isn't allowed to take levels in that class.

That said, since there are no hard numbers given for how these songs would work, I wouldn't be concerned with them being overpowered. I saw someone else once suggest, and I totally agree with, putting cookies in the world for bards. Something like, hidden within an ancient ruin is some bit of history/lore that the bard can learn additional spells from. Sort of like what you're suggesting here with the spellsinger, in that they would learn a spell they otherwise don't get access to.

Whether it's bonus spells, or new bard songs, I'd say most folks seem to have the same general idea. Bards get access to spells they would otherwise not get access to, along with additional resources (songs or spellslots) to utilize those new spells with. Gotta reward the CHA investment, and let them shine as a spellcaster of some variety.

Because of bards being so often associated with words, music, and language, I'd personally suggest they somehow get access to the Power Word line of spells.

[Opustus]

Thanks for the thoughtful comment!

About the synergy/blocking of Spellsinger path with Paladin/BG: That's a good point, it should be thematically consistent. Homogenising builds is a design consideration, though, and limiting the powerfulness of Paladin/BG with Spellsinger could be achieved through a different kind of mechanical limitation through the Spellsinger path instead of outright blockage. Limiting the powerfulness of Paladin/BG through those classes would require nerfs to Paladin/BG dips in general.

If it weren't for the Paladin/BG/MasterHarper dips being exceptionally powerful for a CHA-based bard, the whole path could just not be a path and could be a feature of the basic bard class instead. This would definitely be the more elegant solution.

The Power Word spell line fits like a glove, fo sho. Widgets for them (if going the suggested "spellsong" route) could be made targetable.

[CosmicOrderV]

Here's hoping for the elegant solution

[Lyric Moonwhisper]

*Appears in a suit with a black background*
I’m Lyric, and I approve of this message.

Personally, a CHA viable bard is very appealing to me, and I’d very much consider rebuilding even if it wasn’t meta. At present, it doesn’t seem particularly rewarding to do so beyond a slightly better bard song or incredible disguise. Awesome ideas for exploring and finding new spells and such as well! Power words would be <3

[Zahlfire_old]

Sounds like a solid idea! Always happy to see more options come available. What I would really love, and would get me to finally play a bard on Arelith, would be paths/classes similar to a Stormsinger or Dissonant Chord. I used to play on a NWN2 world called BGTSCC and I played a Bard for a while. She was a master of counter-songing and buffing allies, while also singing and affecting the weather with it ala Stormstinger. It was a ton of fun and one of my most memorable characters. I would be thrilled to be able to play her again on Arelith.

+1

[Opustus]

Oo, sounds like Call Lightning.

[Iceborn]

There are so many things that can be done to make bards a little more alluring to play (you can probably count the number of bards going around the server with the fingers of your hand, even you, you weird crazy mutants on the corner).

Personally? I'd be happy if they'd get the same ASF treatment as Warlock - no ASF with medium and light armor, no ASF with small and medium shield. After that is implemented, we can discuss more in depth mechanics.

[Astral]

Just posted it in the other thread about ASF but it seems relevant here as well!

Please just give bards -5% (or -10%?) ASF like spellswords so they can use greesteel armor and shield. That's all you gotta do to make them appealing. They will be able to use extend spells again in combat and be party supports without being full caster support who is mostly a bardsong/haste bot.

[Jack Oat]

Just posted it in the other thread about ASF but it seems relevant here as well!

Please just give bards -5% (or -10%?) ASF like spellswords so they can use greesteel armor and shield. That's all you gotta do to make them appealing. They will be able to use extend spells again in combat and be party supports without being full caster support who is mostly a bardsong/haste bot.

I second this.

Someone is going to post about fullplate + tower shield + still spell. And that's nice, if you wanna do that, but not everyone wants to have to strip before a fight to cast spells.


But to be honest even with that, Bard still has its main issue of being dispel-bait. A CL vs. Dispel buff would be nice for like 20+ Bards (not Warlocks), but I doubt it'll happen.

[Iceborn]

I have managed to find the perfect image to show exactly how much I hate ASF.
With no more than 20% ASF.

I present, from me to you, hatred.jpg

[Astral]

And a roll of 2 to top it all up after failing 4 times. Cheers. This really sums up what I think about bards too.

[Philly]

Bard is always my go-to class when playing dnd, whether its p&p or baldur's gate, you name it. Even Everquest!

I get so frustrated playing bards in nwn, not just arelith mind you, and it's because there's just not enough attribute allocation to make them successful. For a pure bard to reach its maximum natural potential, it needs:

Strength for damage
Dex for AC and no ASF
Int for skillpoints. Bards NEED skillpoints, theyre the jack of all trades! They're also the ONLY class who has a skill that is an actual necessity to the class.
CHA for bardsong, spellcasting, and all around bardiness.
CON so they don't crumple immediately

So five stats...basically everything except wisdom. No wonder charisma takes the backseat.

But charisma to a bard should be, what strength is to a fighter. And it never goes past 16! Anything else is really a waste.

So instead of making a whole subclass, why not just reward pcs who are fully dedicated to the bard class? Give Automatic quicken feats at epic bard levels. It feels like if a bard can sing in full plate, they should be able to cast their spells as well.

Or give ASF reduction so bards can waltz around in Greensteel or leather, like others mentioned.

Give attack buffs based on charisma like in 5E. People are so mesmerized by the bard's just incendiary presence, they lose focus and their guard suffers.

I also think bards should get +1 skill point per level to make up for perform. Compared to a rogue who gets +6 and doesn't have that required skill, bards actually AREN't the jacks of all trade.

Again, this would only be for folks who go DEEP into the bard class...similar to how other classes work in that you need majority in bard levels, or they are given at levels 25+.

I want to make a level 30 bard, but I don't want to be a complete joke!

[Opustus]

On the few latest about making bards -5% ASF. I agree! From a balance aspect, it would enable bards to wear chain for combat to cast extended and normal versions of Mass haste, War cry, Haste, Wounding whispers, Dismissal, and Ice storm without stripping down. This wouldn't be a balance issue, imo: in sum, they would gain the ability to cast the aforementioned spells in armour, allow bards to trade Still spell/Craft wand/other feat for Extend spell, and opting out of the adamant armour/shield for greensteel armour/shield loses 3 AC. Also, bards would have to stat for DEX in order to use greensteel chain.

I'd be careful not to make bards powerful fighters by themselves, especially since bardadin is already something of a beast in solo. They have the most powerful buff/debuff in the game, and any party will appreciate a bard as is.

Philly, Astral, Jack Oat, Iceborn, what do you think of my original suggestion as a way to make Bard30 feel less of a complete joke?

[Astral]

I dont see the trade offs in the path you suggested, I just see crap tones of buffs with no trade off so I'm against it. I think bard song at lvl 30 with 100 perform check is FAR from a joke. I just think bards need to be pulled out of the "Still Spell + addy gear OR full caster" niche by removing their ASF when wearing greensteel. That's all they need imo.

[Opustus]

Going pure CHA bard is the tradeoff, essentially, as it directly reduces your damage, AB, and cuts APR down to 3.

[Ork]

I really like one particular idea: +skill for perform. I'd take it one step further - remove perform as even necessary and untie it from disguise checks.

Whenever a bard levels up their bard song, they should immediately recieve the skill value required to utilize it. With the +50 skill cap it might be hard to swing, but I always found it ridiculous that a class couldn't utilize it's major feature just because it couldn't reach the impossible 100 perform at L30.

[Sea Shanties]

I'd love to see a viable dex-based bard myself. I think the flashy "blade" from Baldurs Gate games (which is what, 2nd edition D&D? before my time PNO wise) and/or sleight of hand magician is something we're missing, and it'd be nice to have more options for small races who always lag behind with the strength builds.

[Astral]

Going pure CHA bard is the tradeoff, essentially, as it directly reduces your damage, AB, and cuts APR down to 3.

There's really no reason to go full cha on bards. Its crippling your character in many ways. Bards are the middle ground between fighters and sorcerers. If you want to make a full cha character play sorcerer.

[Opustus]

Um, ok. Did you read the OP? The whole idea of the Spellslinger is based on giving spells to bards that would work on song charges and scale with CHA for DC and bard levels for CL, and that these spells would be locked behind CHA and bard level requirements.

[Astral]

Yes, I read the op and as I said, it sounds like a lot of buffs without any trade offs. You're trying to turn bards into sorcerers with a bard theme and I dont support this idea. Bards get more spells and higher DCs on their spells from charisma. They can dip divine class and get ac/damage from that charisma. There's no reason to push bards more towards the caster direction without trade offs in my opinion. If you want to make pure caster cha bards like that, at least suggest something like a 1/2 bab progression on this path, or something. On the contrary, I believe bards should be freed from Still Spell urgency to put them in a decent spot as melee-casters.

[CosmicOrderV]

Yes, I read the op and as I said, it sounds like a lot of buffs without any trade offs. You're trying to turn bards into sorcerers with a bard theme and I dont support this idea. Bards get more spells and higher DCs on their spells from charisma. They can dip divine class and get ac/damage from that charisma. There's no reason to push bards more towards the caster direction without trade offs in my opinion. If you want to make pure caster cha bards like that, at least suggest something like a 1/2 bab progression on this path, or something. On the contrary, I believe bards should be freed from Still Spell urgency to put them in a decent spot as melee-casters.

I doubt youve ever actually bothered trying to play a bard that wasn't strength based. It shows.

There doesnt need to be trade-offs because it's already incredibly underwhelming. Bard needs direct buffs and adjustments to certain areas, because only one playstyle is currently feasible.

[Opustus]

Yeah, the tradeoff would be to play a CHA-based bard, as said before. Just to remind everyone, the op was written with the archetype of pure and CHA-based bard in mind to cater to players who want to play that style of a bard.

The Spellsinger would not be a sorcerer, but a support-oriented character type with a select range of offensive spells probably via a widget that would spend song charges. They could not haste-cast any level 6-9 arcane spells of their choosing nor could they metamagic the spells due to them working off the song charges. Spellswords can cast their spells like crazy and they still have good melee, so I don't see why Spellsingers should go 1/2 BAB progression. Also, we're not talking about an either-or change. Having bard ASF reduced doesn't exclude the Spellsinger path and vice versa.

[Astral]

Yes, I read the op and as I said, it sounds like a lot of buffs without any trade offs. You're trying to turn bards into sorcerers with a bard theme and I dont support this idea. Bards get more spells and higher DCs on their spells from charisma. They can dip divine class and get ac/damage from that charisma. There's no reason to push bards more towards the caster direction without trade offs in my opinion. If you want to make pure caster cha bards like that, at least suggest something like a 1/2 bab progression on this path, or something. On the contrary, I believe bards should be freed from Still Spell urgency to put them in a decent spot as melee-casters.

I doubt youve ever actually bothered trying to play a bard that wasn't strength based. It shows.

There doesnt need to be trade-offs because it's already incredibly underwhelming. Bard needs direct buffs and adjustments to certain areas, because only one playstyle is currently feasible.

I think I just said I dont believe in cha bard, so that should confirm your doubt. I dont think bards need to be rewarded for going full cha, just as I dont think clerics should be rewarded for going full wisdom, or spellswords rewarded for going full int. You already get bonus to DC spells, perform and more spell per day for investing in cha. You also have the option to dip in divine classes to make your cha pay off even more. I feel like I'm repeating myself. There SHOULD be a trade-off. The only buff I think bards need without trade-off is -10% ASF.

[Iceborn]

On the few latest about making bards -5% ASF. I agree! From a balance aspect, it would enable bards to wear chain for combat to cast extended and normal versions of Mass haste, War cry, Haste, Wounding whispers, Dismissal, and Ice storm without stripping down. This wouldn't be a balance issue, imo: in sum, they would gain the ability to cast the aforementioned spells in armour, allow bards to trade Still spell/Craft wand/other feat for Extend spell, and opting out of the adamant armour/shield for greensteel armour/shield loses 3 AC. Also, bards would have to stat for DEX in order to use greensteel chain.

I'd be careful not to make bards powerful fighters by themselves, especially since bardadin is already something of a beast in solo. They have the most powerful buff/debuff in the game, and any party will appreciate a bard as is.

Philly, Astral, Jack Oat, Iceborn, what do you think of my original suggestion as a way to make Bard30 feel less of a complete joke?

Deja Vu, I've been in this place before~
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=18136


These are a lot of mechanics that I wouldn't mind if they were applied to base bards, rather than making a path out of them. it would allow current bards to have more of an investment to dip into charisma rather than minimum spellcasting (which some optimale tamale folk will tell you is worthless and that you are better off sticking to wands).

I'd love to see a song progression, gaining access to new variants of spells - heck, choosing special songs that you can unlock every 7 levels or so. Some of them race/skill locked to add more variance to the bards as a class.

All of that would require bards to be properly balanced by themselves, which means that the ridiculous dipping into Divine Favor/Unholy Blessing has to go, and I swear I may eat my own liver (of happiness) the day bards are given at least 20% ASF to use light armors freely.