Arelith

It's half a round. If half a round is the difference between you winning or losing PvP then congratulations you are the 1% PvPing someone else in the 1%.
Not all updates should have as standard the 1% of people that can and know how to utilize all of their kit at 100%. This isn't going to horribly break anything.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:42 am It's half a round. If half a round is the difference between you winning or losing PvP then congratulations you are the 1% PvPing someone else in the 1%.
Not all updates should have as standard the 1% of people that can and know how to utilize all of their kit at 100%. This isn't going to horribly break anything.

Yikes.

Whether you understand it or not action economy/efficiency/momentum is the cause of winning / losing most pvp, at all skill levels.

I'm not really concerned about the change considering wild mages can combo you to death in 2 rounds.

that just tells me that wild mages need to be nerfed

wm can use this buffed ward too btw so

I think people don't understand how it totally flips the dynamic. A weaponmaster getting in your face in a hostile situation? normally you're at risk of being kd'd. With -ward being an instant action, now they're the stunned one

if you have epic abj you're going to be liberal with dispels anyway. Against warded targets, you're not wasting an action mords'ing for a -ward. It's something you would already do.

you can use it in time stop. P sure you can use it while kd'd (but correct me if I'm wrong). it's a huge defensive, because a LOT of melee suffer where will save is concerned. And if you force a -pray in the first round of combat without casting an actual spell, you just got a MASSIVE advantage. With a slow attached now, even if the enemy just sits and eats the -ward, they have to make a decision to follow up with a clarity vs a will spell follow-up or a freedom to get rid of the slow (and if they don't do that, the caster can make a huge cap to close). With a single, instant action, you have an enemy in a 50/50 situation.

these arguments of being in the top 1% don't make sense to me either. You want the gap between the 1% and the rest of the 99% to be wider?

There's a lot more counter-play here than we're really giving credit. Slow can be nullified by chugging a haste potion. If you're already hasted the slow will not cripple you - you're deprived of your haste for 5 rounds. I don't think a ward would elicit a -pray unless the wardee is woefully ill equipped for that combat.

I think the scariest thing is that proc healers just got scarier. I don't think that it will break the meta significantly. It would be nice if -ward cost an action. That would be a fair balance, and remove the more seedy actions of -ward in timestop or KD.

Overall, I know why you all are fighting against this change but to many of the people reading the forums it appears nitpicky. It really isn't a hill I would die on.

Counter play comes at an action cost (see fom application above) which is how things should be.

However with ward you don't trade an action. You won't go behind when using it ever even if it fails (because it has no action cost). However it is likely that you will gain a 1.5 to 2 round advantage.

That's irrespective of the multitude of unique use that you can get from it.

Obviously, or at least I had thought it was, potentially gaining a round advantage on your opponent without risk is very good. Now it's 1.5-2.

We went through this a few posts up. The action economy gained is half a round compared to what it was before.

The update (and this thread) are about the -ward change, which adds a Slow on a failed save.
Where does it make a huge difference?

WM in your face, with Mindblank and Freedom -> -ward is useless
WM in your face, with Freedom -> -ward works as before

WM in your face -> -ward stuns and slows
WM chugs a freedom potion and loses 3 seconds, that is it

What are you doing now, dispelling again because the WM now has freedom? Well, there goes your action economy, the WM can drink two potions per round and you can breach twice per round.

All you do is shift the balance slightly, you force the WM to renew a ward he should have. Yes, it is 3 seconds the WM could be hitting you instead, it is 3 more seconds you have to do something, but it is hardly the end of times.

I think the best pvp spell is -yoink because you can just conjure someone and literally double your potential damage and tempo until one of the two people die.

Using -ward teleport to prevent the possibility of someone doing that seems like the better defensive choice.

You're right, we did go over this when I said that using a freedom to remove the slow gives the caster an opportunity to attack will. Hence the 50/50

this was a buff to something that didn't need it. Saying "it isn't a big deal" doesn't change the fact that it was an unnecessary buff to something already strong. It's really not defensible

Shadowy Reality wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:38 pm We went through this a few posts up. The action economy gained is half a round compared to what it was before.

The update (and this thread) are about the -ward change, which adds a Slow on a failed save.
Where does it make a huge difference?

WM in your face, with Mindblank and Freedom -> -ward is useless
WM in your face, with Freedom -> -ward works as before

WM in your face -> -ward stuns and slows
WM chugs a freedom potion and loses 3 seconds, that is it

What are you doing now, dispelling again because the WM now has freedom? Well, there goes your action economy, the WM can drink two potions per round and you can breach twice per round.

All you do is shift the balance slightly, you force the WM to renew a ward he should have. Yes, it is 3 seconds the WM could be hitting you instead, it is 3 more seconds you have to do something, but it is hardly the end of times.

You're... not breaching after they fom. You've already gained the advantage by making them have to do it in the first place...

The ward change as I've stated turns the advantage from 1 round into 1.5-2 rounds. An increase of 50-100% effectiveness.

Using a potion locks you in to that

That is a huge increase on a spell which has no downsides. It's a free action.

Let's look at it another way.

3 seconds means the wm is not hitting you for 6 seconds.

That is 240 damage that you can put out for free in addition to the damage you put out from ward previously

Which is at least 1/3 of someones hp.

Combine that with a regular very easy to pull off standing nuke if the wm is in your face because you are absolutely terrible at positioning. (HB-IGMS-TS-IGMS-MORDS-WARD-IGMSX4)

That's 720 damage, plus hb, plus summons / party on a stunned target for a round then a slowed target for the first 2 flurries and an extra aoo.

Is that more understandable?

"Generally, if the feat gives a combat advantage it's now an action."

Hopefully haks will fix it, yay.

Sockss wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:19 pm "Generally, if the feat gives a combat advantage it's now an action."

Hopefully haks will fix it, yay.

It is an action with the haks, as far as I am aware, yes.

Thanks for confirming!

Sockss wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:59 pmCombine that with a regular very easy to pull off standing nuke if the wm is in your face because you are absolutely terrible at positioning. (HB-IGMS-TS-IGMS-MORDS-WARD-IGMSX4)

Precisely, what does the Slow change? You are mostly arguing that -ward stun effect given it is a free action is broken, not that the recent addition of Slow is what breaks everything.

Whoever is on the end of that won't be moving or attacking you back, they will likely be using -pray and then chugging Heal pots until the combo ends.

Zav & Sea are in the right here in that -ward provides a noticeable advantage to the combat economy. There is no arguing that a high DC slow is useful & powerful. With the future incorporation of ward as an action, I feel a lot of the balance returns. If you are curious of -ward's effectiveness, I'd recommend going over to PGCC to trial it.

I think what's funny here is that this post was created immediately after the update thread, and that's caused the mechanically uninitiated to wonder "what's the big deal" & for stakeholders to rally against perceived reversal of a buff.

I don't know, Zav & Sea. Continued argument for a reversal seems to only be met with people arguing against for really no other reason than restating "what's the deal"?

I feel like you're gonna be arguing with that forever.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:50 pm

Sockss wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:59 pmCombine that with a regular very easy to pull off standing nuke if the wm is in your face because you are absolutely terrible at positioning. (HB-IGMS-TS-IGMS-MORDS-WARD-IGMSX4)

Precisely, what does the Slow change? You are mostly arguing that -ward stun effect given it is a free action is broken, not that the recent addition of Slow is what breaks everything.

Whoever is on the end of that won't be moving or attacking you back, they will likely be using -pray and then chugging Heal pots until the combo ends.

It doesn't matter now because it's not going to be a free action.

However:

New Ward:

-> Stun = 1 round disable
-> Slow = 0.5 round disable (if you are quick and chug a pot) however this is also 1 round in total that you can't hit the mage. At best you will chug a heal pot.

So you've double the period they're tied up being reactive.

You have gone from 240 free damage (From stun only initial ward) to 480 free damage (From stun-slow ward), if someone counters you optimally. [It's actually more than that but the extra damage is dependant on your party, your summons etc.]

I'm not sure it's an argument so much as helping someone understand the in's and outs. The more mechanically initiated the better IMO.